Rocker Panel Color

[Iconic]

I may be going out on a limb  , but I highly doubt interior color has ANYTHING to do with rocker color. 

I'm willing to explore all scenarios and frankly, stranger things have happened. Although, I too, would tend to doubt it.
So, at this point, no one with matte black original rocker has spoken up.
So far, 3 original cars have stated they have dark grey rockers. They were an early 250 SL, a '66 230 SL, and a '69 280 SL.

Maybe someone from the Classic Center has some input?

[wwheeler]

I think I have the answer to the rocker shutz mystery.

I used Wurth SKS stone guard black #0890 0301 with the recommended Wurth gun #0891 110 (not cheap) and achived the exact same color and finish as what is on John's rocker. I used this on my '70 Roadrunner to undercoat the inside of the wheel tubs, so I have experience with this product. The color wasn't as black as I was hoping for on this car, but close enough. I think I have a picture I can post of that wheel tub that I will try to find.

The stone guard dried to a dark grey (not quite black) and had a satin gloss (not dull) to it. The gun is quite sophisticated and you can vary the finish from somewhat smooth to rough.

The product is very tough and is water based so it cleans up easily when wet. When it dries, it is a different story. It does not need to be top coated although it can be.   

[hkollan]

Hi,

So, at this point, no one with matte black original rocker has spoken up.

During my current restoration of a pretty much original California car some minor repairs to the original rocker panels was needed.
I noticed that the textured coating  applied to these panels is whitish and not black when you get under the dark grey surface, and seems to be very similar or identical to the white PVC undercoating used elsewhere.
Meaning that they where painted dark grey or black before assembly.

BTW very interesting picture of John's original rocker panels with the black brush marks.
Seems I have some black paint brushing to do on mine, before mounting the rocker panels.

Here's a theory of mine, the black paint applied on the car under the rocker panels, to prevent sections of the car
to appear in car color from a side view is identical to the brushed on paint used on the inner fender sections in the front.(also applied with a paint brush). I find it strange that they would use a different paint and color when painting the rocker panels. Could the fact that these panels appear to be grey and not black be due to 40 years of exposure to the elements, and that the underlying coat is white?

Hans

Hans

[mdsalemi]

I believe John's car was repainted by a previous owner; previous to Vince Canepa (maybe you all remember that name?) who was previous to John.  The repaint was done years ago.  I offer the possibility that spraying that thick goo known as "body schutz" or undercoating of any type is quite different than spraying paint.  Therefore it is entirely possilble in a repaint that the rockers were repainted by a painter who did not want to load up a gun with this impossible to clean glop for 2 relatively small rockers that don't need multiple coats,  Might explain the brush marks.

Is that a possiblity?  I don't know this for a fact but I can't imagine the car was repainted w/o the rockers being repainted, and this seems a plausable scenario.  I know the painters I've seen would prefer not to have this goop anywhere near their paint booth.

[thelews]

Vince bought the car in 1971 at 4 years old.  HE repainted the car in 1975 with Herberts 568 paint just as the factory did so that it was just as original.  The car had not been painted prior to Vince's ownership.  Vince was a stickler for originality, even back then and documented everything as he did his work so as to put the car back exactly as he found it, inspection marks and all.  He did NOT paint the rockers, they were either masked off or removed when the body was repainted.  I specifically asked him this question shortly after buying the car and am still in contact with him from time to time.

With the purchase of the car, I also bought the last of the carpet he had that is as close as possible to original.  I have enough redo the entire interior should I ever need to.  I also picked up other original pieces he had.

Just for the record, my good friend just purchased a very original 230 SL (66?) with about 30K miles on it.  It has grey rockers.

[bogeyman]

Not that this is related, but it might be - I have an '87 560SL with 8,000 original miles that I bought when it was 2 years old with 2,000 miles and it has........grey rockers.   They are fixed on a 107, so they had to be done at the factory that way.

[49er]

 I drove my 280 SL off the show room floor and the rocker panels were the same color then as they were today. The brush work was done at the factory to the body (behind the door) not to the panels them selves. They are painted as wear show a lighter grey. The pattern of the coating is different then the undercoat applied to the bottom of the car. More "pebbley" and uniform. Also the visible (from the side) bottom of the car was painted black over the undercoating. I would imagine the rockers were applied to the cars pre painted towards the end of assembly and pretty sure they would have all been identical in color, a dark low gloss grey.

John

[mdsalemi]

So--have we established that all rocker panels on all Pagodas to be original are:

1)  NOT BLACK but a [medium to dark] grey?
2)  Hand Painted with a brush, not sprayed?

...and just for the record, originality begins to end the moment a vehicle is driven.  Fabricating inspection marks to mimic what was done in the factory (but you are doing it in the garage) is hardly to be deemed more original than no inspection marks at all.

I think it is great that we all go through such lengths to get to the bottom of what might have been original.  What is cool is when we discover some varying items, like the fabric on tool kit rolls.  It is noble even, in its own way, to try and duplicate original when time and the elements conspire against you, and some kind of action is required to prevent wasting away.  But at that point you have duplicated originality, not recreated it.  Originality can not be recreated.

I am reminded of the fabricated and ersatz "original" tar-top battery that one cleverly restored car I saw was equipped with.  It looked original but it surely was not.  It fooled the judges, but that didn't make it original.  If there was a question, the judges just had to look at the ersatz patina (the car had a slightly worn interior, restored 20 years prior) and deem the battery to be original!  The owner snickered a bit at how his clever work made a restored car look original.  If it was not done at the factory, it isn't original.  That's not a condemnation either--if we didn't work on our cars and change them there would a whole lot less of them out there and a whole lot more iron oxide buried in landfills...

[hkollan]

2)  Hand Painted with a brush, not sprayed?

Michael, how did you conclude that the rocker panels where brush-painted. As I see it the brushmarks on John's(original owner) car where applied before the assembly of the separately painted rocker panels.  And maybe there is someone who could confirm my assumption that the textured coating on the rocker panels is white/light grey? From the pictures of shown of the area it seems that a withe/grey color shows through where the top paint coat has been worn/scratched off.

[49er]

 Spray paint over a lighter grey/tan material. I can only vouch for my car but I can assure you it is original in every way (other then some hose clamps:-) It has never been restored or repainted. Just the way Mercedes Benz built it. Here are another couple of pictures taken in the door sill area. The grey has worn off over the years from my pant leg getting in and out of the car. If I knew I was going to keep this car for as long as I have, I would have been more careful

John

[thelews]

...and just for the record, originality begins to end the moment a vehicle is driven.  Fabricating inspection marks to mimic what was done in the factory (but you are doing it in the garage) is hardly to be deemed more original than no inspection marks at all.

Maybe I wasn't clear about Vince's intentions and my car.  The rocker panels are ORIGINAL, never touched or repainted.  The other areas of the car that were refinished were DOCUMENTED for originality so that after refinishing it is CORRECT, as in how the factory ORIGINALLY did it.  It is a given that cars are only original once, 49er is more original than mine, and I most always, unless unintentionally, distinguish ORIGINAL from CORRECT on my car for reference purposes.  It's both and there's even some INCORRECT stuff like modern hoses and Norma hose clamps so I can drive the car at sustained speeds of over 90 mph. without leaks or blowing a hose.  Those would come under the heading of DRIVEABILITY IMPROVEMENTS that are REVERSIBLE to CORRECT as was ORIGINALLY done from the FACTORY.

[Iconic]

OK, I think we are getting somewhere and I believe we are learning something new (at least I am learning something new).
Thank you all for your time on this !!
Except for a post from bogeyman on January 30th, I believe no one has disputed the dark grey rocker color on original cars.
Bogeyman, you state your car was repainted. You say no sign of a repaint on the rockers. Your car was painted and they, or you, didn't paint the rockers?
This is possible as discusssed by John (thelews), but is it true for you, bogeyman?
This might sound silly, but have you looked with a direct light at the rockers? (I hope I'm not insulting you, but I'm still just trying to get to the bottom of this.)

Also, I want to clarify one item. John (thelews) rockers were not hand painted, correct? Only some touch-up on John (49er) towards the top of the rocker (touch-up from the factory that is) was hand painted. This touch-up was possibly intended for the screw heads. Shiny screw heads could visually jump out at you against that dark background.

[bogeyman]

I guess I should note that I see a difference between John "Lews" and John "49er" colors.  Mine are very close to 49er's, not true black but a very dark grey. 

As far as the brush marks, I think that as the car went down the line the area immediately around the rockers was brushed with black paint before the rockers were installed.  The factory apparently decided they didn't like the body color next to the rocker covers. The covers themselves were not brushed. They did a similar procedure in front of the battery, apparently because they didn't like the body color showing through the grill.

[thelews]

Bogey appears to have hit a hole in one.

[bogeyman]

Too bad we don't have an original very early car.  I bet you can find a lot of "yeah, buts" that happened along the way...

[ljg]

I have a 14,000 280 SL built in June-1970.  I just had ithe exterior painted.  We resprayed the rocker trim in the original dark, dark satin grey.  They were obviously in great shape-we therefore left the factory texture in place.

[hkollan]

Here's my attempt to summarize the process.

1. The car is painted
2. Only some over-spray reaches the outer sections of the floor-pans partially covering the beige PVC coating applied prior to paint.
3. The lower section of the car is spray painted black/dark grey to prevent visible car color from a side view. (See picture)
4. The rocker panels are treated with a beige textured coating, possibly the same as the rest of the undercoating
5  The rocker panels are spray painted dark grey
6  The rocker panels are mounted on the car
7  Some black/dark grey brush paint is applied to sections of the rocker panels, possibly to darken the yellow screws, see Johns(original owner) picture.

[mdsalemi]

Michael, how did you conclude that the rocker panels where brush-painted.

Hans--I concluded brush painted because there seemed to be a variety of posts here about brush marks on the rockers.  If you have brush marks, it's brush painted.

I have not been able to conclude anything from the photos.  The best of them are, frankly, dreadful.  Don't take offense to that however--I can tell you that photographing black or dark grey, with the satin or semi-matte, is a task for a pro.  You need carefully placed soft lighting and probably carefully used polarizing filter to eliminate highlights.  You need the color balanced for neutral, which requires insertion of a black/white/grey card in the photo or in the identical lighting conditions, and balancing after the fact.  Then, unfortunately, the reduced nature of the posted photos eliminates a lot of detail. (John is laughing about that one!)

I think your assessment here is instructive.  However, didn't we just go through a whole thing about the undercoating being a beige and not a dark grey?

[114015]

(Love this thread ! )

Too bad we don't have an original very early car.

I had one, an early 63' 230 SL.
When I took that one apart before wrecking, I found that the area under the rocker panel was dark grey, not black, not factory body colored (181G hellbeige). Car was resprayed a couple of times throughout its past life so I cannot say for sure how the rockers were below the rocker panels ... at least somehow "dark" as well.
At least the area covered by the (totally rotten) rocker panels was dark grey - and textured.

Same held true for the spare wheel well. That one had no (correct) body color, no hellbeige anywhere. There were only traces of dark grey "something" over the dark beige body schutz that I found underneath layers of that  black tar stuff ...
Long ago.

Nevertheless, would love to know how the spare wheel well on the first 7204 pagodas built looked like when they came off the line at the factory. Is there one survivor car (with respect to those colors) here built before November 1964?

Achim
(1964 230, 1971 230)

[hkollan]

Michael,

I agree that the undercoating is more of beige and not a light grey color. I'll change my previous post accordingly.
 
Regarding the rocker panels, I am pretty sure they where first spray painted dark grey(after the textured stuff was put on, and that the brush marks seen in the picture was applied after they where put on the car. To me that makes them spray painted.
The suggestion from Iconic that it was to avoid that the yellow shiny screws would be visible against the dark background makes sense to me.  

[mdsalemi]

I am so curious as to what my car has.  I tend to think the rockers were all new from MB, not refinished, when the car was restored.  Something tells me my restorer did nothing to them but install them--but just guessing.  Oh well, I'll wait to spring!

[dtuttle123]

HA!!  Michael, wouldn't you be shocked to find that they were BLACK!   

[wwheeler]

Wouldn't that dark grey color sprayed on the texture be the same as the trunk paint? It looks like the same color. It would make sense that they would use the same as it goes down the line. Maybe they even sprayed the panel at the same time as the trunk.

[mdsalemi]

HA!!  Michael, wouldn't you be shocked to find that they were BLACK!   

Doug--it would not surprise me in the least if they are black...it has been about 10 years since the restoration and I just have some really vague recollection that the rockers were simply bought new from K&K and screwed on.  So, what they have on them now is probably what they came with--albeit as replacements 30+ years after the fact.  I am almost certain there were no brush strokes added by the restorer; I've been up close enough I would have noticed.

From a colorist point of view however, black is grey, just a different light value on the grey scale.  It is "no color"; neutral.  They have the same hue, saturation and chroma, just a different value!

[J. Huber]

Nevertheless, would love to know how the spare wheel well on the first 7204 pagodas built looked like when they came off the line at the factory. Is there one survivor car (with respect to those colors) here built before November 1964?

Achim
(1964 230, 1971 230)

Sorry can't help with this one... I know for a fact my spare tire well and rockers are black (now) because I've sprayed them with good old rustoleum more than once over the years...Satin black I think. No award for originality on the lower half of my 63...