Author Topic: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)  (Read 14774 times)

SilverSpear

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Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« on: April 19, 2011, 08:57:33 »
Hello All,

My name is Danny, I live in Lebanon (middle east). Just joined this wonderful forum and I have a few questions about this car.

- Obviously the best engine is the 280SL. But I don't mind getting a 250 instead. Can someone shed some light on the best, 2nd 3rd best years and the differences/pros/cons of each?
 
- What really interest me at that point is the status of the body as a whole. I do not mind some rust here and there, bad floorings, etc... but the most important thing is that the car has not been in any accident before and is complete.

- Where can I buy metal sheet replacements for the body? I need some high quality ones (which are exact replacements).

- If a car is missing a soft top, how much should I ask the seller to shave from the price? What are the rarest/expensive parts to find for this car that I should not take lightly? Glass? Front Grille? Hard top? etc...

- I want an automatic. Any special things to look for in autos?

Your help is greatly appreciated
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 08:16:04 by SilverSpear »
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

Richard Madison

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Re: Newbie...
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 09:52:21 »
Hello Danny:

Some of the others here will answer your questions but you can learn a lot by looking at the Technical Manual and going through the sections or using the Tech Manual Search function to find articles with with a specific word. A Tech Manual article about Buying a Car might be helpful to you.

Also, go to some of the Forums such as Body or Drive Train and look at the postings or use the Search function to find messages of interest to you. As you can imagine, many others have asked the same questions and the answers are all here.

There is also a Forum about Ebay and other Dealers that may help.

Richard M, NYC

P.S. I had the pleasure of visiting Beirut many years ago, before "the troubles" began...beautiful city. "The Paris of the Middle East"
1969 280 SL, Tunis Beige, Euro Model (Italy).

SilverSpear

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Re: Newbie...
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 10:14:06 »
Hello Danny:

Some of the others here will answer your questions but you can learn a lot by looking at the Technical Manual and going through the sections or using the Tech Manual Search function to find articles with with a specific word. A Tech Manual article about Buying a Car might be helpful to you.
Also, go to some of the Forums such as Body or Drive Train and look at the postings or use the Search function to find messages of interest to you. As you can imagine, many others have asked the same questions and the answers are all here.
There is also a Forum about Ebay and other Dealers that may help.
Richard M, NYC
P.S. I had the pleasure of visiting Beirut many years ago, before "the troubles" began...beautiful city. "The Paris of the Middle East"

Hello Richard. Actually I had a peek at those sections you mentioned and I used the search button, but couldn't really find what I was looking for. I really wished the Mods around here would do a sticky in each section summarizing and updating them with ALL that is needed for newbies to move on. For example the body, interior, paint would have 3~4 stickies summarizing the shops who sell exterior body panels, interior items, best paint and paint codes, etc...

As for Beirut, It was "The Swiss of the Middle East" in the past, before 1975. Now it became overly crowded, and traffic jams have simply no solution... :(
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:18:17 by SilverSpear »
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

mdsalemi

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 12:06:26 »
Silver Spear,

Well, it isn't as easy as you would like it to be.  I've seen this before, and as a former President of the local MBCA (that's an acronym you'll see tossed around here a bit; it is the Mercedes-Benz Club of America) I've received many phone calls about it too.  People with almost no knowledge of one specific model (300SEL, 280SE 3.5 Cabrio, etc.) and then they want to learn "everything" about the car in order to make informed purchase and restoration decisions...in about 2 weeks time!  :o

There's no easy way of condensing years of experience and ownership into a quick set of "sticky" notes.  I think many of us would freely admit we learn all the time which is why we keep coming back here, to learn and to share what we have learned.

The Technical Manual might be a good place to start but might, in some parts, be far too detailed and specific for you at this point.  Something you can do from Beirut presumably, is start to buy a bunch of books on eBay or Amazon or from the many auto booksellers in Europe.

Answering some of your questions:

"The market" places a high value in terms of price on the 280SL.  You cannot assume from that, however, that the 280 is "the best engine", or the 280 is the best car either.  There are quite a few 230 and 250 owners here that have run their cars for years if not decades and wouldn't trade for a 280.  Yes its bigger, but not more power.  Yes it has more main bearings, but the 230 engine is hardly delicate.

There are all kinds of ways to investigate the body, be sure you know how to tell original if that is what you are after.  Ditto for "complete".

Check the suppliers list for parts, and shop around.  Here in the USA, K&K is known for sheet metal parts.  So are local MB dealers and the respective classic centers in Fellsbach and Irvine, CA.

Some parts are very expensive, such as the front grill star; the grill suround.  That's part of searching for completeness.  If a car looks like it is of interest to you, but is missing something, better be darn sure you can find the missing parts before you make an offer.  Some trim parts, internal trim parts, and other minutiae can be hard to find.

Soft top missing: beware if the frame is broken or missing.  That is very hard to repair or replace.  The actual top itself is a $500 or so item, maybe more depending on brand, and then the installation on top of that.

Regarding the automatic, best to look for one that works well and is adjusted properly?  If the car shifts smoothly, runs well, it is probably in good shape.  There are a few firms out there that will rebuild them, too.

It is always less costly in the long run to buy the best car you can, rather than one missing parts or needing something.  Of course in Beirut, you might not have a great opportunity without travelling to Europe or USA to find suitable candidates.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

jameshoward

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 12:56:01 »
- Obviously the best engine is the 280SL. But I don't mind getting a 250 instead.
::)

Ouch.

And: Rubbish.

And another thing: earlier cars are more classy. Just ask anyone who's got one!




James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

SilverSpear

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 13:28:41 »
Michael, I cannot thank you enough for the info you just provided to me.

Well I was asking for the best year in the Pagodas because I know there might be a year which has some sort of defect or something that has been fixed in later years. For example, the European 1990 Mercedes 300E-24V had a major problem that is almost non fixable. Once the board inside the engine catches humidity, it is burned without repair. This problem was later fixed in the 320 engine of the W124.
I assumed the 280SL as the best year because this same engine was fitted on the E series if I am not mistaken. Furthermore I assumed the Pagoda in its last years should have been revised in terms of mechanical failures of the 230 and 250... anyways I will read the technical book.

I want a solid SL that once refurbished entirely, does not give me any mechanical headaches. I should admit though, the mechanical condition (but should be running of course) and the body do not really matter to me as long as the car was not in a major accident before. I want it to be complete, rusty panels here and there are not an issue... So what are the things prone to failure for each year? This is what I want to know...

I also know that some replacement panels might differ from OEM, so I need the exact possible available on the market. Are you sure that K&K are the best there is?

Yes the soft top and the star are problematic of course....
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

thelews

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 13:42:49 »
These aren't used cars (90s era), they're vintage cars, approaching 50 years old.  It's not that one model is "more prone" to issues than another, it's a matter of finding one within your budget that meets your needs or can with what you're willing to invest in money and time.  Your success in finding a quality car will be the result of prior owners' care and remedial work vs. the issues MB may have had, and taken steps to correct, with successive model years.

BTW, I have a 250 and wouldn't trade it for a 280.  To me, it'd be a step down (no offense intended to 280ers).  Gernold, the "GURU" would take a non-power steering, early 230 over all of them, so he's told me.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 15:42:06 »
Silver Spear,

Take thelews at his word...he wouldn't trade.

I don't know of any aftermarket body panel maker other than K&K, and what they make is very high quality.  Where they differ from OEM is they make some smaller parts available that are not available from MB, such as wheel arches (as opposed to 1/4 panels) and things like that.  The owners are very knowledgable of the cars and what they are doing.

There were no "defects" to my knowledge in the W113.  But here were many changes made along the way--some welcomed and accepted ("improved" engine) and others not so (removal of some trim).  Some changes you'd never know or understand, as they are hidden.

Contact me off line, Silver, I'll send you some information which is too big to post here and a bit of a reference.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 15:50:31 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

SilverSpear

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 15:52:15 »
PM'ed  ;D
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

thelews

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 16:52:49 »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 18:08:00 »
PM'ed  ;D

Email sent.

In addition to Silver Star that John thelews posted the link to, also check out http://www.motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm  There is a "280SL" buyers guide (a lot applicable to all Pagodas) as well as lots of great photos.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

SilverSpear

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 06:00:38 »
Excellent info! Thank you guys!

Reading...  ;)
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

dseretakis

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2011, 00:31:32 »
I own a 71 280SL, arguably the most desirable but that was by accident. I wasn't specifically looking for a 71 or for a 280, just a pagoda. Anyway, I feel that the 230 and 250 models are indeed a bit more classy and pure. Some trim details just have more finesse and the car overall exudes a lighter 1960's flair.

SilverSpear

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 07:03:52 »
Just a small update (well a huge one), I found a rustbucket early 250SL, bought it and had it imported to Lebanon (Middle East).
I stripped it entirely to bare metal (rust and paint now), all the parts are carefully wrapped in magazines and boxes, labeled down to even the small screws and nuts.

All the sheets are bought from K&K, leather from Germanex, all rubbers and seals and whatever is needed to get this car to showroom condition.

Here are some pictures of what the car is like right now. It is being prepped for hydro blasting, then primer, then metal works, then paint.
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

pj

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 22:35:34 »
As always, pictures help a lot. I hope you'll keep this thread up to date. You certainly have come a long way from your original post!

I bought my Pagoda in late 2010. Despite the advice you've read here, I didn't buy the best I could afford. I wanted to take a bit of a gamble and buy the least expensive running Pagoda I could find, and that's what I did. The car spent last winter in the shop. A dozen or so panels (from K&K) were installed to deal with rust issues. This was required for a safety check in Ontario (Canada), and I wouldn't be able to drive the car without the safety check. Wanting to drive the car was more of a motivation than fixing the rust, to be honest. When my car was up on stilts in the body shop, the metal parts looked somewhat like yours in these pictures, although the shop was able to do the panels without removing the motor.

That's only part of my story, but as you see, the story depends upon each of us individually. Your priorities are different, and that's as it should be. I've enjoyed the other stories (e.g. "twistedtree" and "Snow White") very much, and I'm looking forward to yours as it develops.
Peter J
1965 230SL #09474 named Dagny
2018 B250 4matic named Rigel

SilverSpear

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Re: Newbie...Buying A Car
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 08:14:47 »
Thanks you for the kind words PJ.

I have chosen to remove EVERYTHING from the car for this overhaul. It was not a decision coming from the body shop or so, I have also chosen to put it on stilts for the best outcome possible. I just wanted it to be perfect.

What I did is not something normal in this part of the world, people over here tend to "patch" cars as quickly as possible and have them up and running on roads. My dad (to whom I intend to give this car to as a token of my appreciation to all what he did for me) thinks I've gone nuts lol. I do love him though...

In my case, I have sourced the best labor possible in this country, especially the bodyworks guy who relies on a policy of "no-bondo, no-lead filling!!" with his work. He is simply an old-old school guy whose reputation definitely exceeds expectations. One story about him (from people) mentions a damaged Renault which he fixed, and when the replacement windshield (from the dealership) came in, there was a 1/4 inch gap at one of the edges. The dealership accused him to have lousy skills... long story short, the windshield turned out to have a manufacturing defect coming from Renault France... lol

I need help with something please if anyone is willing to provide for me. I do need accurate pictures coming from a non-treated W113 in terms of side rails (while the rocker panels are removed), the inside of the trunk near the taillights area (left and right edges), what is behind the rear wheel-wells, and what is in front of them where the rear subframe area is linked to. Please PM me for email, thank you in advance people!

I will definitely be posting pictures of the treated body panels whenever the works start.
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

SilverSpear

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 13:09:42 »
BTW, do I have the ONLY mercedes engine in the world which starts with 129.932 instead of 129.982?  ;D

Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

69 280

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 18:51:02 »
I think I read somewhere the workers used to be given a beer with their meal. In this case it may have been more than one beer ;)

SilverSpear

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2011, 07:44:00 »
Some pictures of my rustbucket lol:
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

SilverSpear

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2011, 07:45:56 »
More pics
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

SilverSpear

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2013, 12:03:52 »
Guys I came across a dilemma concerning the mounting points of the rear diff.

As I removed it from the car, what you can see as rounded in the picture below was looking a bit confusing in relation to the number of parts included.



First, there is the stud attached to the underbody of the car. It goes inside the end of the trailing arm, then there is a bushing then the triangular shape bracket holds everything in place. At least this is what the diagram above shows.

In my car, I removed all of this, but something fossilized/heavily rusted remained attached to the studs. Am I missing a second bushing there for each end?
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

SilverSpear

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2013, 12:04:36 »
double posting... please delete
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

Peter h

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2013, 12:49:38 »
Hi
look at Wolfgangs site http://www.beetle.homepage.t-online.de/Hinterachse%20ueberholen%20Mercedes%20Pagode%20W113.htm
I hope these pictures help you, you need to translate text
Peter
08.68 280sl automatic white 717 G  blue MB Tex
09.68 280sl  4-speed, now 5-speed Getrag 180 G dark green MB Tex

w113dude

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2013, 16:25:02 »
Hi
look at Wolfgangs site http://www.beetle.homepage.t-online.de/Hinterachse%20ueberholen%20Mercedes%20Pagode%20W113.htm
I hope these pictures help you, you need to translate text
Peter

This link should definitely be added to technical page, if they are translated to English would be even better.

Good Job.

w113dude

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Re: Bought a 250SL... Now Overhauling it (Pics in Progress)
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2013, 16:34:08 »
Guys I came across a dilemma concerning the mounting points of the rear diff.

As I removed it from the car, what you can see as rounded in the picture below was looking a bit confusing in relation to the number of parts included.



First, there is the stud attached to the underbody of the car. It goes inside the end of the trailing arm, then there is a bushing then the triangular shape bracket holds everything in place. At least this is what the diagram above shows.

In my car, I removed all of this, but something fossilized/heavily rusted remained attached to the studs. Am I missing a second bushing there for each end?

No, there is just that big donut rubber that goes in the trailing arm end. It's most likely a lot of rust.