Author Topic: Chassis 000015  (Read 48646 times)

cascadia

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Chassis 000015
« on: August 21, 2011, 06:55:07 »
Well, here we go again.  About four months ago I got in touch with a gentleman who advertised a 230SL for sale.  On the phone he mentioned that it was an early car, that it had been parked for 30 years, and that it was by now so buried beneath his other belongings that he wasn't sure just when he could actually show the car to a prospective buyer.  I kept in touch with him and today, finally, got my chance to look at the car.  It is indeed early, number 15!  It's in need of a total restoration, and unfortunately doesn't have original fenders.  Originally white, it was repainted gold many years ago.   It has a M127.982 motor with a 2 plunger IP and the hood has a bulge to accommodate clearance for the intake plenum, something I've never seen (or even heard of) before.  Could this be some early variant before production really got finalized?  I'll leave this question to the experts. 

The car has some neat "early car" items, such as a driver's side grab handle, wood bow on the soft top for the old style trim strip in the back, painted dash air vents, no hood strap, no heater valve access hole - well maybe that one's not so neat.  Also on the minus side someone has added later side marker lights, bumper guards, and a tow hitch.  I am going to help extract the car out of the building in the coming months but the owner advised me it might take until Thanksgiving :o

I've created a slideshow gallery of pictures at this link:
https://picasaweb.google.com/pagoda113/W113Chassis000015?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7TtZHgxe2dVw&pli=1&gsessionid=XJrIWORTjp3MwdfYTGlmDQ#slideshow/5643190574322883138

but here's a couple of pics....

« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 07:51:16 by cascadia »
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

DaveB

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 07:01:36 »
Brilliant, well done! Hope it's not too rusty.
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

Richard Madison

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 10:03:55 »
A fabled "barn find" that's real !!!

The soft top looks better than mine.

A classic find indeed. That big air plenum is seen in some photos of prototype cars in Engelen's book.

The earliest VIN we have in our Car Registry is 1028 so this addition will move the Registry back to an earlier time.

It will take a lot of courage and hard work, not to say $$$, to get this one back on the road but the historic value will make it worthwhile.

Wonder if the Classic Center has the Datacard for this one?

Richard M, NYC
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 10:16:56 by 280SL71 »
1969 280 SL, Tunis Beige, Euro Model (Italy).

dtuttle123

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 12:35:49 »
Bob - this is very cool!!  Have you actually bought it yet?

49er

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 13:34:39 »
Amazing! What a find. Has the car been in Oregon all these years? It does hurt to see such a wonderful car to literally be buried under all that debris. And I thought my garage was messy!

John ( from  Paris, and no vintage SLs spotted in five days)
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

J. Huber

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 15:33:46 »
wow. that is a project! I am pretty sure it was not in a garage for the first 20 years of its life. Be sure to grab that seat over there...
James
63 230SL

cascadia

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 16:38:59 »
Bob - this is very cool!!  Have you actually bought it yet?

Yes, I bought it on the spot.  Daunting project or not, the car is just too interesting to pass on.  From what I've been told, the first owner was a Pan-Am executive who took delivery in Europe, had it flown to his home near Seattle, and then later passed it on to his daughter.  The gentleman I bought it from purchased it from her.  I plan on emailing the Classic Center on Monday to get a datacard.
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

66andBlue

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 17:03:26 »
Bob congratulations, what an exciting buy.
If you need information on VERY early 230SL then contact Achim = "114015" through our web site.
He owns number 00021 and probably knows more about these early cars than anyone else on this planet.
Keep the remnants of the original firewall pad, it is the precursor of the diamond pattern that we are so familiar with!
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

al_lieffring

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 17:18:22 »
The long manifold and two element injection pump would indicate that the motor is a 2.2 litre from a 220se/b coupe or sedan, not original to the car.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 17:24:10 by al_lieffring »

DaveB

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 00:52:31 »

"Be sure to grab that seat over there..."

And the red hardtop!
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

114015

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 21:28:52 »
Amazing, Bob ....! ;D


Sadly, there are some original items lost like engine, seats, rims...
The rims yours has are not correct but from the W115.

We need to talk offline on the phone or by mail to exchange experiences and ideas ...

Great to see that another of the early ones is still around. And again a Europa version ... ;)

Best,

Achim
Achim
(Germany)

cascadia

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 21:50:14 »
Definitely Achim, thanks for getting in touch.  My biggest question concerns the motor and the hood, I wonder if it's possible that this could be similar to the example in Engelen's book.  Does anyone have a scan of that photo?
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

DaveB

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 22:57:50 »
I wouldn't think anyone would go to the trouble of fabricating that bulge to fit a non-standard engine. Does the bulge fabrication look professional or home made?
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

cascadia

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 23:02:32 »
It looked pretty seamless to me
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

DaveB

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 03:16:11 »
Yes Bob I thought the bulge looked pretty well made, some hammer marks or something around the internal bottom edge but maybe that's what you'd expect. What do you make of those tin snip marks on the inner hood edge in your '16' photo?

Regarding that rim Achim - with a date stamp 3/63 wouldn't you think it'd have to be original to the car?

I reckon (and prefer to believe) these are original parts! Seats maybe not, but as James says those could be the original buckets in behind.
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

cascadia

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2011, 03:57:23 »
Those marks are actually where the gold paint has peeled back revealing the original paint beneath, it's something of an optical illusion in the photo.

I just got an email back from Mike Kunz at the Classic Center, he's out of the office at the Monterey event but has told me he will look into the archives upon his return later in the week.  I'll certainly add any information I get once I hear back from him.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 04:37:02 by cascadia »
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

66andBlue

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 04:48:31 »
...   My biggest question concerns the motor and the hood, I wonder if it's possible that this could be similar to the example in Engelen's book.  Does anyone have a scan of that photo?
Hi Bob,
I believe what Richard had in mind was the manifold, not the bulge in the hood. At least I could not find a photo in the book with a bulging hood, only a Pagoda with fin tails.
Here is a scan of the test engine with the long manifold
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mdsalemi

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 11:47:12 »
Hopefully that data card will not take too long to obtain.

Remember, I went to look at "VIN # 0001" here in Michigan some years ago; a fleeting glimpse.  Don't know how original it was.  Non-standard mechanical work or other things done 40+ years ago can be deceptive because it looks so old.  It was a strange situation, it was not the owner showing me the car, but the friend of the owner.  It was in Manchester, Michigan.  Nothing seemed right about anything with the situation or the car.

Regarding the trailer hitch, many European trailer hitches look a bit different than American style, with the ball being a uniform piece that come out from under the car; I believe they are called "goose neck" or "swan neck" and are almost unseen in the USA.  Specifications for trailer hitches differ in the USA vs. Europe.  Check out manufacturer Bosal's website.  Given a vote, I'd say what this car has was added in the USA.

I should also note that pages 36 & 37 of "Les Mercedes Pagode" by Jean-Luc Fournier (2007) shows the image of the Plan définitif of the 230 SL--a blue print, as it were--dated 3-January-1963.  Certainly by that time, and with that translation, the body was set for production.  There is no additional hood bulge shown, just the defined one in the center we are all familiar with.  Also, there are some very early (1963) photos of various 230 SLs in that same book and none show that secondary bulge.

One last thing about hood bulges: around these parts, (you know, where 40,000 hot rods and cruisers came from all over and cruised up and down Woodward Avenue while 1,000,000 people watched last Saturday) engine swaps and hood bulges and modifications to accomodate them are extremely common.  Entire hoods with all the right bulges to accomodate engine swaps, as well as small bulge parts added to an existing hood are routine.  Not often seen on Mercedes however, but the parts are there.  More common in fiberglass than metal, but they are available and have been for decades.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 13:00:03 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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DaveB

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 12:24:09 »
He's already got that underway.
Suspend all speculation 'til then? Unpossible.
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

DaveB

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2011, 14:26:53 »
Michael - some good points. I recall that #0001 thread, not the detail, but I remember the engine bay looked believable to me (maybe I mean it looked corroded and dirty, just like a 1963 first run should!). Of course claims to authenticity and rarity should be viewed with scepticism, especially if they come with a high asking price. But this seller wasn't talking it up. And you know Bob, he probably bought the car for a (relative) song.
Trailer hitch? Agreed, possibly an add-on. Hood bulge? Well it definitely could have been added. But if MB were experimenting with that motor, as Alfred's Engelen photo demonstrates, and if that manifold wouldn't fit without a bulge, then a bulge there was (maybe that's what all those guys in the photo are discussing?)

p.s. you shoulda just 'replied'

Dave
DaveB
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cascadia

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2011, 14:48:16 »
Agreed, Michael.  Just because it's old doesn't mean it's original.   One thing I like about vintage cars is that every one of them has a story to tell.  This one has the potential to be a very interesting one, or perhaps one that contains a let down.  In the meantime I don't mind the wait, I think that the speculative process is part of the fun.  Either way, it's the chassis number that holds an interest for me, I'll report back with what the Classic Center says about the rest of the story.
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

mdsalemi

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2011, 15:00:16 »
Re: #0001.  Wasn't really for sale, they didn't seem to know much about it, but I can tell you this: even though it wasn't too pretty, it was Concours condition compared to #0015.  Curiously it too was in a barn. :D  I wish I could remember the year and find the photos I took of it!  The VIN plate was peculiar.

I guess an interesting question is, at what VIN was the first true "sold" production car started?  #1?  #5?  #15?
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

66andBlue

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2011, 23:34:23 »
There is for sure number 113-42-10-000004, but I don't know about number 2 and 3.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

J. Huber

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2011, 00:23:01 »
The manifold and head in the vintage photo look different to me than the ones in Cascadia's "new" car. I think Al might be right (transplant?)
James
63 230SL

DaveB

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Re: Chassis 000015
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2011, 01:48:27 »
James you are right, looks different in several respects (but still possibly bulgeworthy). All will be revealed I guess.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 05:20:30 by DaveB »
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190