Chassis 000015

[Jordan]

At what point does a car no longer become itself?  I ask this after reading an article in the latest Sports Car Market about a Carroll Shelby, CSX3303.  In looking at the pictures of Pagoda Chassis 000015 and reading the various posts, it sounds like almost everything under the hood has already been changed in this car.  In restoring this car it would likely require a number of new body panels and numerous other parts.   So how much of the original car would actually still be on or in the car when it is finished?  So could this car then be declared the 15th Pagoda made?  I would have to say no if most of the car was no longer in attendance.  A VIN plate does not in itself make a car.  That is just my opinion and I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.  I'm sure there are many strong opinions on this.   I've noticed publications seem to be placing more and more emphasis on "original" unmolested cars, even if they are not in pristine condition. 

[cascadia]

I think with this car what hurts it the most is the non-original motor.  However, with the exception of the driver's side fender, all of its body panels are original.  One important aspect is the body number stamp (16) which is found throughout this car.  In addition are the vin stamps on the subframe support, hood latch support, cowl tag and door jamb tag.  These are the key elements that give it an identity.  Any car that is restored has parts that are not original on it, that's just the nature of a restoration.  There are a few completely original Pagodas out there which are in a class by themselves.  The majority of our Pagodas have had some restorative work done and the argument could be made that each new item diminishes the originality of the car.  My feeling is that the core of a Pagoda's originality lies in its body panels, undercarriage, production number stamps and the all important subframe support vin stamp.

[pj]

The question of how original something is makes for endless amusement. We've all heard the story of "my great-great-grandfather's axe." It's 200 years old but the head has been changed 7 times and the handle 5 times. Ha, ha.

When I did my M.A. in Philosophy, one of my favourite conundrums was The Ship of Theseus. Philosophers can never decide on a final answer for anything anyhow. I think it was Plato who told this story. Theseus would pull into harbour and go get drunk with his crew. Unbeknownst to Theseus, thieves stole a few pieces of his ship, replacing those pieces with brand new pieces. Theseus never noticed, of course, and he kept coming back to that harbour every few weeks. He kept getting drunk, the thieves kept stealing bits of his ship, and you can imagine how the story ends. Eventually every piece of Theseus's ship had been replaced, but it was still the same ship.

At least as far as Theseus knew. The tricky part is that the thieves took the pieces over to the next Greek island and, bit by little bit, put Theseus's original ship back together there, without Theseus every realizing what they were up to.

So which ship is The Ship of Theseus? I'm sure K&K or Millers or that fellow over in Poland have thought long and hard about this story.   Maybe if Pagoda 000015 gets back on the road, it should have the licence plate THESEUS. You'd get pulled over by a lot of philosophers.

Note added later: the WikiPedia article tells me it was Plutarch, not Plato, who wrote up the conundrum of the Ship of Theseus, and that Thomas Hobbes (much later) added the twist about re-creating the original ship out of the original parts. Also, that the story of grandfather's ax is often connected with George Washington. Maybe he used it to chop down the cherry tree? Cees, you've put your finger on the interesting point that Philosophers seem incapable of accepting the obvious answer, maybe because it would them out of business. Marcus, I'm not sure how the sports car writer got Pericles involved, because Pericles was a statesman, not a sailor, and wouldn't have had a ship to whistle in in the first place. Not that any of this is important, but I like to help get the details right when I can  

[Jordan]

Peter, that is so funny because the article I refer to in the Sports Car Market starts off with Pericles, the Greek Hero.  The Athenians wanted to honour him by preserving his ship.  With time planks were replaced as they decayed until eventually the entire ship did not contain one original plank.  Was this still the ship of Pericles?

[mdsalemi]

The philosophical questions aside, and the originality questions aside as well, this is a case for sitting down and looking at practicality.

Would a solid driver, moderately restored or highly restored 230 SL be worth any more than any other 230 SL because of its #15 VIN?  I don't know, but suggest not.  If maybe, so little that it might be irrelevant for further discussion.

So, practicality and affordability comes into play.  Everything without exception on that car will need work.  All the chrome is pitted; the interior ripped up, we don't know the condition of the engine or fuel system and most other mechanical bits.  I know from experience that every wear item, every piece of rubber without exception, will need replacement.

Start adding it all up--the parts and labor hours and or sublet work--and one will realize that unless you have a good solid reason for saving this, there is little practical reason for doing so.  Many of us have been down this path before, but we have an edge: our heartstrings.  My own car is a family heirloom, purchased by my Uncle in 1969.  Many other of us have cars that belonged to our fathers, grandfathers, in-laws or similar, and thus emotion trumps finances.

In this case unless someone is emotionally attached to mere VINs, sad to say this one practically will be a tough sell--and I suggest the eBay or whatever sales means employed price, will eventually reflect that.

[stickandrudderman]

When I said that the car didn't look too bad, I meant that it was certainly not beyond salvage. Whether it's economically viable or not is another matter entirely.
I recently restored, at my own expense, a 190SL that was chassis number 0045, one of the earliest known survivors, but when it came to selling the car that made not one bit of difference. She was worth just the same as any other 190SL in similar condition.

[cascadia]

this one practically will be a tough sell--and I suggest the eBay or whatever sales means employed price, will eventually reflect that.

Time will tell, the car will be posted to ebay by this time next week.  I'm of the belief that there will be a bump in price because of the vin. For the buyer, the cost of restoring this car will be only marginally higher than any other complete restoration - once you're there you're there.  The car's end value however will be greater than other 113042 cars, even if you don't agree from a monetary standpoint, you can't deny that the element of 'bragging rights' comes into play, and for some folks that's worth a lot.  Early production and late production cars always carry a mystique of their own.  This will be an interesting one to watch on ebay.

[J. Huber]

Hey PJ (Peter), great reference! Fits this conundrum perfectly. And they said "you'll never use this philosophy stuff in the real world..." At least that's what they told me! (MA History)...

Another way to approach it is from what I believe is the ontological viewpoint. All of us agree (I think) that our cars have a certain soul or spirit that sets the Pagoda apart from most other cars. At some point, number 15 was unique even among Pagodas -- it had its own soul so to speak -- and somebody somewhere experienced it as such. Now twenty, thirty years later, the fenders may be different, the engine replaced, and so on, but the essence (or the soul) of number 15 still exists.

Now if every single part of that car was changed, then what? Well, the spirit or soul of number 15 would still be there -- as 15 was unique -- it was initially as a place marker of Pagoda reality. The "new" Pagoda could never be anything else but the "old" Pagoda. That's life, what ya gonna do?

[bsimaz]

On a related note:

Steven Wright ...

I Woke Up This Morning, And I Realized That Somebody Had Broken Into My Apartment,
Stolen All My Things And Replaced Them With Exact Duplicates.

[glenn]

How do you know it was not just half of them?

[Bonnyboy]

I agree,  the value of this car will probably not see any appreciable incease due to being 15. 

It would be cool if someone resurected the car with the existing motor / hood bulge and keep it is a piece of rolling history as to what people did to these cars in the past.  I used to know of a Ferrari that had a small block buick v-8.  It was a cool car and when it was at the show and shine the owner would say that his car was modified back in the 70's by the previous owner out of necessity and why change it now - it was a shrine to the PO.    I don't know how many 113s I have seen with a sedan motor in them - they are still cool - I can't usually tell unless there is a carb and aircleaner.   In many cases I have more admiration for many of them when you see the work that the guys did to make it all work. 

The motor in it won't earn any brownie points with the purists and if someone is going to head in knowing he's going to go upside down, stock (or as close as you can)  will be the way to go  to reduce the amount he will be underwater. 

 
 

 

[lurtch]

Gentleman,   - - -  my two cents worth:

What would really be the point in bringing #15 all the way back to a very "original condition"? 

I think a much more appropriate and noteworthy expression of the spirit that makes these cars great would be to leave it mostly the way it is. It is a true artifact and should remain an artifact. Does an archeologist take his new fossil into his lab, then bead blast it and smooth off the edges?

To use a recently-hackneyed expression:  IT IS WHAT IT IS.   I vote to clean it out , shine it up, get a correct M127 in it, and let it be.

Regards, Larry in CA

[glenn]

Bonnyboy,  I've a 127 982 engine in/from a 113.......

[mdsalemi]

The March, 2012 issue of Road&Track [Magazine] has a column/editorial by editor Matt DeLorenzo titled "Barn Finds Revisited".  I won't attempt to interpret his take on things for all of you, but it is worth a look. http://www.roadandtrack.com/column/barn-finds-revisited

[Shvegel]

Maybe there is more to this car than we realize.  I admit it looks like a transplanted old 230 but as I was reading the thread tonight something struck me. If the Böhringer rally car was number 14 then this car was the next off the line. Usually when someone is mounting a serious challenge there is more than one car involved in the program. In the description of the Böhringer rally there is a mention of a 220SEb Heckfloss as well which would prove that the 220 engine could have been a viable alternative as an engine. Also the long manifold would have generated more torque at low RPM's. Could this thing be a test mule for the Böhringer program?  

I might be mistaken but didn't Herr Böhringer run a 220 Heckfloss the year before? If I was playing with a new driveline I would test it against the old one.

http://www.eugen-boehringer.de/rennsportbilder.htm

I wonder what color combination and options the Böhringer car came off the line with...Hmmm.

[twistedtree]

I agree that there is likely more to the story than we are giving credit.

Why, for example, would someone swap the engine and go to all the trouble of hand forming a hood to clear the large manifold?  If it was just a routine engine swap, why not reuse the original 230 intake and save all the extra trouble?  Someone really went out of their way to make the modification the way they did.

Also, i have a somewhat different view of the value of unique SNs, matching numbers, etc.  There are a lot of ours car out there in good shape, so rareness is less of a factor, but one of the things that distinguishes the very top $$ cars of any make is provenience. Very early examples, very late examples, rare option combinations, who owned the car, things the car was involved with, etc all contribute.  I think #15 purely by virtue of it's extremely low build number holds significance.  If there is an interesting story behind the funky motor, that could add significantly.

[Cees Klumper]

The question of how original something is makes for endless amusement. We've all heard the story of "my great-great-grandfather's axe." It's 200 years old but the head has been changed 7 times and the handle 5 times. Ha, ha.

When I did my M.A. in Philosophy, one of my favourite conundrums was The Ship of Theseus. Philosophers can never decide on a final answer for anything anyhow. I think it was Plato who told this story. Theseus would pull into harbour and go get drunk with his crew. Unbeknownst to Theseus, thieves stole a few pieces of his ship, replacing those pieces with brand new pieces. Theseus never noticed, of course, and he kept coming back to that harbour every few weeks. He kept getting drunk, the thieves kept stealing bits of his ship, and you can imagine how the story ends. Eventually every piece of Theseus's ship had been replaced, but it was still the same ship.

At least as far as Theseus knew. The tricky part is that the thieves took the pieces over to the next Greek island and, bit by little bit, put Theseus's original ship back together there, without Theseus every realizing what they were up to.

So which ship is The Ship of Theseus? I'm sure K&K or Millers or that fellow over in Poland have thought long and hard about this story.   Maybe if Pagoda 000015 gets back on the road, it should have the licence plate THESEUS. You'd get pulled over by a lot of philosophers.

This one is easy, no? Theseus' ship is now in the hands of the thieves, who in return gave him a copy of it.

As for no. 15 would say that, even replacing everything down to the chassis parts with vin numbers on them, it willl always be no. 15, although more diluted and so not as strong a 15 as it used to be. That is, so long as the old parts that were replaced weren't used to create a copy that has more original parts than no 15 itself. And one could say that if original parts were re-used in two vehicles, then there would be 2 original 15s, one less diluted than the other. Just like Theseus' ship was temporarily in two places right around the midpoint of the steal-and-replace-process. But in the end Theseus only thinks he has his own ship. Similar to: your wife brings the diamond wedding ring to the jeweller's to get cleaned. He replaces the stone with a good looking, but less valuable copy. You and your wife can't tell, as you know. So who has the diamond you gave two months' salary for back when? Even though you're still just as happy looking at it as before (or not, that depends on the originality of the marriage) ;-)

In fact there's another parallel that is even closer to home: to what extent are you still you? If I am not mistaken, most of your cells are replaced with new cells in a relatively short time. Except (some or all) of your brain cells. So you've been mostly restored yourself - are you still original?

[GGR]

That's an interesting discussion.

Earlier cars from the 1920s or 1930s usually had several lives, with various engines, various bodies fitted to them at different periods of their lives. When documented, people chose to restore them for them to look at what they were at one given point in their lives. They trace older bodies, older engines, which were not necessarily the ones the car came out of the factory with.

Also in Europe, the cars that went through WW2 and the immediate aftermath had some modifications done to be able to run on wood (gazogene), and were repaired/maintained with whatever was available. These cars are now historical testimonies.

After WW2 people couldn't afford new cars, which were produced in very limited numbers anyway. So they were taking old cars from the 30s and 40s and rebodying them in the style of the 50s, fitting more efficient engines that were usimng less gas etc. Theses cars are also testimonies of a period. 

All this doesn't really apply to Pagodas which came later, but it is just to put things a bit in perspective. Yes, a very nice and well preserved car should be kept original. Full restorations to better than original also have their place. But the vast majority of our cars have had their own lives, with scars and stigmates that make them what they are. I sometimes find it more interesting than a 200% bolts and nuts restored car.

The other thing is that nowadays emphasis is put on full bolts and nuts restoration to original standards. The result is that there are a lote of these Pagodas out there now. They have become common. What will people be after in 10 or 20 years from now ? What will be the neww standards ? How do we look at "older restaurations" today ?

In the case of that 000015, it would be worth knowing the circumstances in which it was modified. The nature of the story may then help decide what's the best thing to do with it.

[mdsalemi]

Well, if there is a story behind it, perhaps it would be worth ferreting out...chain of ownership should not be that difficult to track down, at least for a few years back...

We might know more this week when it goes on eBay.  If it goes up with "no reserve" then the true value will emerge.  I suggest, in my own opinion, that certain items that end up on auction at eBay always sell, and always at the correct price.  Vintage Leica cameras are a good example; any modern (last 5 years) Apple computer equipment is another.  Collectible Mercedes cars and parts are a third.

Things get muddled up when a reserve is placed on them.  Every now and then something might accidentally slip by to the detriment of the seller and benefit of the buyer,  However, put a good grill star with no reserve on eBay and it will sell.  Put it on with a start price of $600 and it might be on for a while.

I watched hundreds of Apple Macintosh auctions, and everything sold.  The exceptions were too-high reserves.  The highly sought after Canon G11 camera is another--all sold, no reserve necessary.

So, if #15 goes up with no reserve, the true value will emerge.

[santropezblueSL]

This is indeed an interesting discussion.  What premium does the market place on early cars and on originality today?  As I have a 1964 230SL  in its original db268 blaugrun factory paint, with tan interior, no rust, and 51,372 km showing on the odometer, I am interested in hearing what premium is placed on originality.  I have my 230SL listed on ebay right now, so perhaps we shall see what originality means for values of these cars.  In the meantime it is very interesting for me to see how the factory did certain things on the bodywork, without having to peel back layers of previous paint and bodywork.   

[GGR]

I agree eBay is a good place to determine the price of common things sought after by a large number of people. Things get a bit more complicated with specialized items with narrrow demand and narrow offer. One of the few persons willing to put big money in a rare thing may not be watching eBay at the time it is auctioned. Then advertizing in specialized circles becomes necessary, and transactions may happen out of eBay.

I had a very nice W109 6.3 some years ago. I put a lot of time and effort in having it run flawlessly and it was looking very nice. It was not that a rare item, but I took it to Kienle and they sold it 35.000 euros for me. Their commission was between 1 and 3 percent, I don't remember, but it was more than reasonable. There is no way I would have got that amount of money by posting it on eBay.

[twistedtree]

I think ebay will give you a definitive price for a sale on ebay.  But I think it's only one market for classic cars, and one with some significant flaws.  Personally, I'd be very resistant to buy a classic car via ebay, site unseen, and I don't think I'm alone.  I know one person who bought an MB Cabriolet paying top dollar, and it turned out to be hacked hardtop.  You are, after all, usually buying from a used car salesman.  As a result I think ebay likely under-prices cars because of the risk factor to buyers.

Where do the really high dollar cars sell?  I 'think" it's the high-end auctions, and then specialty dealers, but that's just a guess.  Where do $75k and up cars sell?  Not on ebay I don't think.

[Benz Dr.]

Original, low milage cars are always going to bring a permium as long as the condition is a high 3 or low 2. You can also have an original car that has original rust, original wear, and original non serviced items, so condition is worth as much, if not more, than rarity for the right car.

[66andBlue]

I think ebay will give you a definitive price for a sale ....

Well, it is on eBay now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/160737846063

How high will it go?  Any bets??

[DaveB]

Almost 1000 views so I guess it will go high - near $15k?