Author Topic: Chassis 000015 (Read 49184 times)

GGR · « **Reply #75 on:** February 18, 2012, 12:48:34 »

That's a nicely presented add. Some emphasis is put on the early model details, and makes it a bit "special", in the attractive way. Being a solid car also adds to its attractiveness.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #76 on:** February 18, 2012, 15:13:52 »

Quote from: 66andBlue on February 18, 2012, 05:35:41

How high will it go? Any bets??

Almost 1000 views so I guess it will go high - near $15k?

I'd suggest somewhere between $12K and $15K, and even that is by someone with a lot of money and a lot of time to devote to the project.

I just inspected, for a friend here in the business, a 1969 280 SL that had been "highly restored" some years back, with a fabulous attention to detail. All the trim was complete and perfect; all the chrome replated. Engine bay detailed, all the right clamps, and extremely clean. Plating was close to correct. A few missing details, (satin black paint in places such as air cleaner, overflow tank, underside of trunk deck was too glossy) but it wouldn't take much at all to give this car 98+ points in a Concours. A few worn or broken rubber or plastic parts, a few misplaced or incorrect hoses. Engine started right up, sounded great. Blacklick CO test told me mixture was great at mid and high range. Notches there, paint job superb, original doors and body panels. Hard top was restored as well. There was nothing missing save for the tool kit--a 107 kit was in its place. Wouldn't take it on the road at the moment in Michigan (salt, etc.) but I'd suggest it's probably in top notch running shape. Went for ~40K at auction.

cascadia · « **Reply #77 on:** February 18, 2012, 16:33:34 »

Quote from: mdsalemi on February 09, 2012, 13:57:20

this one practically will be a tough sell--and I suggest the eBay or whatever sales means employed price, will eventually reflect that.

So no longer a tough sell?

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #78 on:** February 18, 2012, 17:56:26 »

From the photos I have to say the value is not much more than the parts value? Or, other approach, take Michael's $40K pristine example, subtract the realistic restoration cost, and you will almost certainly end lower than the parts value (in fact you'll end below nil). So parts value is what it should be, rationally.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #79 on:** February 18, 2012, 17:57:44 »

Since there is a bid already, the sell part is done...tough or not.

Since there are multiple bids, the potential issue of a non-payer is probably, but not 100% realistically, squelched. I do have experience with non-payers, and the "second-chance" offer rarely works in my experience. What usually happens in the case of a non-bidder, is the savvy 2nd in line knows the goods will go on auction again, so they don't bite; the high bidder was bogus, so the 2nd in line might be overpriced. Best to wait for a second auction. That's happened several times to me. Next time I won't even offer a 2nd chance. I hope for your sake the #1 bidder is serious. It's pretty easy to bid; less easy to buy if you get my drift.

I think it is, already, vastly overpriced in practical terms. There is no way to turn this hulk into even a driver for less money than you can buy one for--none. It simply needs too many parts, and too much work. If I was wrong on that part, you would have kept it yourself, since that's your business, right?

But, as long as someone is there with cash--as they appear to be--well I wish you the best on this. It's always great as a seller to see things rise. They don't often rise properly until the last hour (or minute) anyway, so all this price speculation is a bit premature.

John Olson's price guide would probably have put the value on this chassis at under ~$4K. Barring something we don't know, I'd suggest the bidders are placing a value on #15.

# of views, BTW, is not that relevant. Many people track anything to do with Pagodas and parts, and they'll keep coming back.

cascadia · « **Reply #80 on:** February 18, 2012, 18:18:57 »

Quote from: mdsalemi on February 18, 2012, 17:57:44

There is no way to turn this hulk into even a driver for less money than you can buy one for--none. It simply needs too many parts, and too much work. If I was wrong on that part, you would have kept it yourself, since that's your business, right?

I primarily just buy and sell vintage cars, the mossy green Pagoda that I restored I bought for myself, thinking that I could do a basic restoration and get into Pagoda ownership on the cheap. We all know how that turned out

Yes, you're right, these cars take a tremendous amount of resources to do right, and will teach a lesson or two about the skills possessed by those assembly line workers at Sindelfingen.

twistedtree · « **Reply #81 on:** February 18, 2012, 19:21:55 »

Quote from: mdsalemi on February 18, 2012, 15:13:52

I'd suggest somewhere between $12K and $15K, and even that is by someone with a lot of money and a lot of time to devote to the project.

I just inspected, for a friend here in the business, a 1969 280 SL that had been "highly restored" some years back, with a fabulous attention to detail. All the trim was complete and perfect; all the chrome replated. Engine bay detailed, all the right clamps, and extremely clean. Plating was close to correct. A few missing details, (satin black paint in places such as air cleaner, overflow tank, underside of trunk deck was too glossy) but it wouldn't take much at all to give this car 98+ points in a Concours. A few worn or broken rubber or plastic parts, a few misplaced or incorrect hoses. Engine started right up, sounded great. Blacklick CO test told me mixture was great at mid and high range. Notches there, paint job superb, original doors and body panels. Hard top was restored as well. There was nothing missing save for the tool kit--a 107 kit was in its place. Wouldn't take it on the road at the moment in Michigan (salt, etc.) but I'd suggest it's probably in top notch running shape. Went for ~40K at auction.

So what constitutes a car that's worth $50k to $150k? This is where I start to get really confused. Even going back to your query several months ago in prep for you buying guide, you had condition ratings and price ranges that far exceeded $40k? Is it just that some dealers are able to find the buyers with more money than brains and get those huge prices? How would you rank/rate that $40k car? It sounds like it would be near the top?

As for restorations, I've heard numbers in the $100k to $150k range for a complete strip down, do everything right restoration. That means you will always be under water on such a pursuit.

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #82 on:** February 18, 2012, 23:14:36 »

Quote from: twistedtree on February 18, 2012, 19:21:55

As for restorations, I've heard numbers in the $100k to $150k range for a complete strip down, do everything right restoration. That means you will always be under water on such a pursuit.

I've heard similar amounts mentioned. That does mean that it is not an investment that will be recouped by the 'investor', but it will be by all those coming afterwards. I think it's safe to say that, if you're in the market for a really great car, then look out for one that has recently had the full restoration done and snap it up for $50 or so thousand. Then enjoy and just maintain it for a long time, and probably you will sell it for about the same as you paid, or a bit more (inflation). If you want to do something good, restore one. Not everything has to be a money making proposition.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #83 on:** February 19, 2012, 15:24:10 »

Peter (Hayden),

If you talk to, or look at some of the comments by Gernold, it can easily take $100K+ to restore one of these cars properly, though I would suggest his numbers are on the high end. I believe he was quoted as such in the article spotlighting him in Hemmings last year.

I think a "95 pt+" car can easily fetch $75K or more. I think Ed Cave's got near $100K; I think Bob Possel's was over $90K. These were exquisitely restored examples. Brian Peters can get that kind of money, I guess. I don't know as much from money as from time, on my own car: 1,000+ hours of professional work, not including any sublet work, plating, engine work, or parts costs.

The car I looked at the other day, the one that sold for ~$40K, so I'm told, would need maybe a little bit of work to make it the equivalent of Possel's or Caves. I think it was "bought well".

It would be interesting to follow this chassis #15 into the future and see where it goes, but we probably won't have that luxury. Around these parts--the Motor City area--the garages, warehouses, pole barns et al are filled with stories of broken dreams and too costly restorations that eventually pass at a proper price to someone with fresh and renewed energy and deeper pockets. It is also filled with wonderful restorations without these way stations of overzealous and underfunded buyers.

Would it not be really cool if this chassis got to those guys in Hungary--the "Oldtimer" webpage that someone recently pointed out?

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #84 on:** February 19, 2012, 17:38:58 »

There are a lot of long faces leaving no reserve auctions and they're not the buyers. If you have a medium priced car or one that has a smaller following, that sort of auction may not be your best choice. Some cars sell for more than their real value but many morer sell for far less than it costs to restore. The recent BJ auction is a prime example.

100 K to 150 K is not really out of line for a full, top notch, restoration. It can be done for less but a lot of that depends on the condition of the car before you start. Most of the increase in resoration costs can be found in the rising costs of vinate parts. I used to buy 190SL motors mounts ( same part that's used as a trans mount for 113's ) for about $45.00 and now they're suddenly over $200.00 They can be found for less but my point is there are many parts that you can only get through MB and those are the ones that have cazy prices. All of these little bits start to add up over time.

There was a time, not so long ago, that you could simply paint the car, put a top and interior on it and after a few fixes, it was a restored car. Now that there are examples of nicely restored cars to compare your car to, suddenly your car doesn't look so hot.
Ten years ago, regardless of how you cut it, you needed to spend at least 45 - 50 K to have a nice looking car. I imagine it's closer to 65 K now and rising all the time. Having the engine bay painted with nice detail along with an engine rebuild is a minium of 15K, and it can often be 20 K depending on what's needed for the rebuild. If the inner fenders need to be replaced, it will be a lot more.

How would you like to be the guy who just sold that car for 40K?

GGR · « **Reply #85 on:** February 19, 2012, 18:07:21 »

Quote from: Benz Dr. on February 19, 2012, 17:38:58

How would you like to be the guy who just sold that car for 40K?

That's the thing: given the market, there is very little chance that one will recoup the cost of a high end restoration. The ones making the money are the professionals that restore the car as they charge for time and expertise no matter what. And the ones making the benefit are the ones that buy a fully restored car for a fraction of its total cost (initial purchase + restoration), enjoy it a few years and resell it with a benefint as the market has gone up. In that equation, you don't want to be the one who initially bought the car and paid for its restoration.

If one does most of the work himself, costs are going down but even there, you may just balance what you spent financially and give all your work for free.

66andBlue · « **Reply #86 on:** February 22, 2012, 19:23:23 »

Quote from: DaveB on February 18, 2012, 05:58:19

Almost 1000 views so I guess it will go high - near $15k?

Good guess that wasn't too far off! It sold for $13,100.
Now for Bob's sake I hope the buyer is not a fraud.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #87 on:** February 22, 2012, 22:43:07 »

Quote from: mdsalemi on February 18, 2012, 15:13:52

I'd suggest somewhere between $12K and $15K, and even that is by someone with a lot of money and a lot of time to devote to the project.

Amazing. Hope he gets paid, the buyer knows what he's in for, and that whatever the intent, it gets done!

cascadia · « **Reply #88 on:** February 24, 2012, 23:01:49 »

So it turns out chassis #15 will be going to Italy.
As chance would have it, I just bought another early car, this time it's chassis #76! Cosmetically it's a lot nicer than #15 but the undercarriage is not as solid. Has similar "early car" design elements but this one has the bonus of a factory Kinder Seat.

66andBlue · « **Reply #89 on:** February 24, 2012, 23:10:58 »

Hi Bob,
let's hope you don't get paid in Lira

#76 pix please!

cascadia · « **Reply #90 on:** February 24, 2012, 23:20:21 »

Quote from: 66andBlue on February 24, 2012, 23:10:58

let's hope you don't get paid in Lira

Will have pix by this time next week, this one I'm going to want to clean up a bit

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #91 on:** February 25, 2012, 05:23:10 »

Italy? I thought they were in deep finacial do-do.

There's lots of money out there - but not everywhere. Some corporations are making record profits right now so it's coming from somewhere.

Anyone who thinks that restoration shops are getting rich these days is not getting the full story. RM restores a lot of very high end cars, some jobs are over a million dollars but the real money is in high end auctions. I bet restorations are only about 15% of their yearly gross.

The smaller operations are just getting by. If you do 100K restorations your exspenses will be higher because the work is that much more demanding.

cascadia · « **Reply #92 on:** March 01, 2012, 23:20:58 »

Here are some pics. The car is altogether more presentable than #15, but has some rust issues beneath that will need repair. A lot of expense was put towards the brake and clutch hydraulics in this car, as well as a new fuel pump, it actually runs and drives very well. It will go on ebay tomorrow at no reserve.

https://picasaweb.google.com/pagoda113/1963Mercedes230SLChassis76?authkey=Gv1sRgCNKyi6TqyYPIVw#slideshow/5715069564342084306

cascadia · « **Reply #93 on:** March 07, 2012, 19:23:37 »

I just got some info from the Classic Center on car #76, apparently its original color was "Blue-Green" code 270, which I've never seen listed as available for the Pagoda.

66andBlue · « **Reply #94 on:** March 08, 2012, 01:45:20 »

Hi Bob
that is odd - according to this site: http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~mtor/mbcodedsc.html
color code 270 wasn't available until 1978.

Will #76 go to Europe too? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/160752397036

cascadia · « **Reply #95 on:** March 08, 2012, 01:55:51 »

Yes, pretty interesting. Mike Kunz told me he's seen a W111 in this color with a cognac interior and said it was striking. #76's data card shows a black hardtop (040), so that would have been quite the package. Hopefully it will be faithfully restored, the high bidder is in Germany.

Jonny B · « **Reply #96 on:** March 08, 2012, 02:59:25 »

I am traveling and not able to check my color book, but I did a quick look at paintscratch.com, and they do have a listing for 270 for 1963??

Jonny B · « **Reply #97 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:13:32 »

i did some looking through my various paint books and paint sheets, and have references to DB 270 in the 1963 to 1965 year range. These are from PPG, Acme and Martin Senour (all USA paint producers of the period). Curiously, the Glasurit book I have does not have the DB 270 reference???

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #98 on:** March 10, 2012, 08:50:51 »

That's a nicely worded advert and someone's got a bargain in my view. i wish my 5 speed was that cheap!

GGR · « **Reply #99 on:** March 10, 2012, 11:46:46 »

Quote from: stickandrudderman on March 10, 2012, 08:50:51

... and someone's got a bargain in my view.

That's what I was thinking. This car may have some rust compared to the earlier one, but globally I think it will require much less money to bring to a satisfactory condition than the earlier one. Even by paying $2000 more or so for this car, I think the buyer of the red car is way ahead copared to the other one.

There seem to be a bottom price for any pagoda as long it is complete, or nearly complete, which is in the 10,000/13,000 range, even if some of them will require 20,000 more to restore.

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Author Topic: Chassis 000015 (Read 49184 times)