The Pagoda SL113 Group Firewall Pad Recreation Project

[thelews]

Here's my original

[Garry]

John,

In my initial quest for the holy grail, I collected together four original pieces of firewall pad that members had sent me.  All were more than 40 years old and all had clearly been washed, wiped, subjected to heat, oil and what ever else gets thrown up from road use over the years.

At PUB Alfred gave me a piece of material that he had found in a roll and it was subject to much discussion between Tom and I as we spent 4 days in a small space together driving back to LA. Tom was absolutely convinced that it was some of the original material. I was somewhat sceptical that it was not the right material. It did not have a shine like all my 40 year old samples had and like your photo shows.
In LA Tom showed me the OEM firewall pad that had never been installed on a vehicle. We measured Alfreds sample, played with it and treated the sample to high heat to see what it would do.
No pictures or sample that I had matched the OEM pad or Alfred's sample that matched the OEM pad. Quite simply, I had always assumed that the 40 year old bits that I had were representative of what a new pad would look like. I had spent many hours with a supplier in Melbourne Australia trying to match to the old pieces with what I was able to get out of Asia.  Benzrestorers pictures show that he also got what appears to be a match to the pattern on a different material base.  I, and I now believe Benzrestorer, were both trying to match what is a 40year old patina and had misunderstood what an original one was really like.  A bit like putting vinyl based imitation distressed leather into a car to make it look like it is 40 years old!

However after seeing Alfred's piece and then the OEM original unused pad, I realised that Alfred had found the original material to match. I stopped my Asian search and Alfred proceeded with his material. A wipe with a dash board type cleaner/restorer will soon give it the "older" look if wanted

Here is a photo of Alfred's sample and Toms original pad on the right. The photo does not quite do it full justice, the indentations/raised parts are much more distinct in real life. It just does not have the shine of old age and oil and polishing and cleaning and heat etc etc

[49er]

Here are a couple of pictures of my original firewall pad, one taken 6 months after I took delivery which shows a bit of a shine and a closeup I took a few minutes ago. Hope they might be useful. I have to admire all the hard work you folks have put into this project.

John

[66andBlue]

Hello John (theLews) and John (49er),
thanks for your pictures - you do have nice original firewall pads indeed! In addition, as I wrote in my report, we do have an original replacement pad sold by Mercedes in 1974 that was never installed. So we have a direct comparison of materials that were never exposed to engine heat, oil fumes, dressing polish, you name it.

John L.
Here is my response to the question that you asked in the other thread (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15382.0):

Question, this new member developed pad being qualified for Concours competition...where is there marque specific (113) Concours competition where this kind of detail really comes into play?  And, yes, I'm aware many guys just want it for personal satisfaction.

I am sure you know of Tom Hanson, perhaps you met him personally. Here are photos where he and two other distinguished judges inspect Tom LeClerc's car at the Newport Beach Concourse. As the result demonstrates they had no problem accepting the firewall pad that Tom installed in his restored car as "original".  This was not an isolated incidence as Tom Colitt can attest to with his restorations.  Perhaps you might advise the Black Forest crew when you visit there that a Concourse-level firewall pad is available should they need one.

[carstennh]

I wish to congratulate the team on this remarkable effort! 
I would like to order a set for my LHD 1968 280sl, with some scrap pieces for the trunk!
I am VERY excited!!!!
Carsten

[nikopu]

I am in for a LHD pad and trunk pieces.

Also, depending on price and availablity, I might be interested in inside firewall material also.

Thanks,Niko

[thelews]

Thanks for the responses.

Attached is a picture of the most original pad I can show.  It's under the driver's floor mats, no heat, no oil, no water, etc, but, yes, it could have been wiped or vacuumed over the years during an occasional repair or maintenance.  Use it for what it's worth.

Yes, I know Tom Hanson, have met him and talked with him on several occassions, most recently last week.  Nice fellow.

My point about concours competition was that in multi-marque competition there is not the level of specificity from the judges that you get down to in marque specific competition.  It's just not possible, judges can't have the kind of knowledge about many different cars to that level of detail.  I appreciate the level of detail you guys are going to with this reproduction, it's a good thing and good to have available when you finish.  AND, I would not begrudge you to make a few bucks for your efforts, you should, you worked hard.  There's no law that says someone making an effort to produce something well for a club or car shouldn't make a couple of bucks.  No one has to buy your product if they don't like the price.

That tangent aside, my point was that I'm not aware of a 113 specific concours judging.  This club does not provide it, like the 190 SL Group, Corvette, Jaguar XKE (to name a few), and I'm not aware of any other.  The details of your pad become more relevant in that kind of judging, just like screw type and finish, carpet weave, clamps, hoses, etc.  And even then the level of  knowledge is overwhelming covering all the changes from 63-71.

[mdsalemi]

No, there isn't 113-specific judging, but there is MBCA judging which covers the 113.  There is a broad, "umbrella" decree on that, but the overall judging standard is "as delivered".  Original, replaced with MB part (even if it differed from original) will be preferable to the current models (they are not reproductions) available from, say, Miller's where mine came from.  Where the new one, or Babak's will fit in, I'm not sure.  Perhaps Peter Lesler might weigh in on his opinion here.

The efforts that people go through in this club will be useful perhaps, in the future if a 113-specific concours judging standard is ever written--for this group or for the MBCA or for the German Pagoda group.  Maybe the latter already has a judging standard.  The detail of the pad, and the level of effort that this team (Garry, Alfred, Tom and who else?) went through is relevant and useful, regardless of whether there is a judging standard on the car.  It makes, or will make, another very visible part of an engine bay that much closer to the way it looked when new.

[hkollan]

I am still interested in buying two LHD firewall pads, as prevously stated in the old thread.

Hans

[bogeyman]

Alfred:

Will you provide a separate thread to order these or should we reserve them on this one?

Thanks

[66andBlue]

Thank you, Hans and Rick.
Not to worry, we'll collect the requests here and when the time comes will notify everyone about the details and also place the description and the actual ordering information into the "For Sale" board where it belongs.

[69280sl]

Perhaps you might advise the Black Forest crew when you visit there that a Concourse-level firewall pad is available should they need one.

Hello Alfred
I hope all interested member orders will be filled before these pads are offered to outside commercial concerns like Black Forest.

Gus

[Garry]

Hi Gus,

Alfred is away this weekend so I wil answer the question,

Our intent is to fill all Forum orders for LHD units first, plus orders from the German Pagoden forum before we then working on the RHD needs. It will be a once off supply to each of the groups.  Anyone , including Black Forrest should register on the forum and put their name down for their needs, however there will most likely be a limit of two initially for each person.  Any commercial enterprise wanting more will need to negotiate with a commercial vendor after the initial issue..

Once that is done we are planning to hand it all to several reliable/reputable commercial sources for any follow on requirements from that point. The final distributers are still to be decided at this time.

Pricing initially for the above groups will be based on the recovery of costs that have been incurred.  When handed to the commercial sources, I guess good old supply and demand will then set the price.

Garry

[bogeyman]

OK, I'll order two LHD sets and would take three if possible.
I would also like a set of the under dash pieces for LHD and a set of the trunk pieces.

[jszeman1]

The early 230SL did not have the access plug for the heater core valve.  Can you make these fire wall mats with no cut out for that heater core?

[DaveB]

Please add me to the list. 1 x LHD '65.
Thanks for the hard work Alfred, Garry, Tom and Dave G.

[Garry]

Hi JohnS.

Alfred will answer your query when he returns Monday as he is the one that has been dealing with the die cutting.

[Tomnistuff]

I too would like a set for a left-hand-drive.  I would also like to know whether the underdash and trunk pieces will be available, or perhaps bulk material to make them.
Tom Kizer

[Garry]

Hi Tom,

We are positive that there will be material off cuts in the die cutting process and that these will be available.  How big and how much is still unknown at this point as we are just concentrating on getting the supply of the Left Hand pads and backing ready, then working on the Right Hand pads before looking at what else can be done before handing over to the commercial vendors.

So to put it simply, yes there will be some surplus material for other parts of the car but how to and who should  distribute it has not been decided.

Garry

[TR]

I would also appreciate being on the list.  Late model 280SL, LHD.  Two would be nice.

[LakisAkylas]

I am interested in a LHD set for 1971 280 SL. Many thanks.

Lakis Akylas

[chumps]

I would also be interested in a set for LHD 1971 280 Sl and other pieces for the rest of the car. Thanks for you hard work.

Chumps

[georgem]

Hi Gary,

Please put me down for a RHD.

[230slhouston]

Hi,
Please put me down for one LHD set, 66 230sl.

Thanks

[66andBlue]

The early 230SL did not have the access plug for the heater core valve.  Can you make these fire wall mats with no cut out for that heater core?

John,
in principle we could, but that would require that you would have to pay for the die since this is a 1-part pad, totally different from the later 2-part pad that we are offering.
But I am not sure why you even would want to do this.  The pad on very early 230SL cars - about the first 200- 300, nobody really seems to know the exact change date - has a very different surface, nothing like the diamond/waffle pattern of all the subsequent ~45,000 cars. See attached photo.