Author Topic: chassis number vs engine number vs head number  (Read 4740 times)

rocketman1

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chassis number vs engine number vs head number
« on: October 27, 2011, 02:57:25 »
Good Evening,  I've been down loading lots and lots of articles and fileing them in my 230SL binder for the last 4 weeks.
I'm new to this club (love it)  & this type of car, but not to general automotive repairs and getting my knuckles busted. Reading "Prepurchase Evaluation" out of the TraillndexPage Technical Manual.
Here's my observations of my engine numbers.
I have a 1964 230 SL euro with a ZF 5 trans. The identification/chassis no. is:   113042 10 005588
The engine no. "stamped on the block left side rear just below the head gasket area" is 127.981 10 005909
The head no. is embossed inbetween the 2nd and 3rd spark plugs just below the valve cover gasket.It's no. is: 127010 5020
The number 64 is a " raised" embossed number, very visable, inbetween the 5th and 6th cyclinder intake/exhaust valve stems under the valve cover.
Here's the questions:
1. Would this be considered a "matched" no. engine? The last 4 digits of the block/head/chassis are all in the 5000 series.
According to W. Robert Nitske's book,"MB.Production Models.1946-1975, there were only 6,911 230SL's built in 1964.
Now here's my nieve thought about this. If the factory in Unterturkheim was casting the parts*,stamping them, then shipping the parts to the assembly plant in Sindelfingen, is it possible that is how the origional engine was assemble with unmatched numbers? There so close numerically, how else could someone after the car was built find these closely numbered parts and reassemble the engine?
I've read enough comments from the experenced" Pagoda guys" to know someone knows or has thoughts about this.
Sorry this was so long, but I got to know! It's driving me nuts.
Thanks
* The cam is stamped 26-6-64 on the shaft. That has to mean, June 26th 1964 doesn't it?
rocketman1
AKA:David B. Lewandos
Corpus Christi,Texas
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Benz Dr.

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Re: chassis number vs engine number vs head number
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2011, 05:17:23 »
There numbers all over the car - Germans love numbers. :)

 THere are casting numbers, part numbers, casting date numbers, VIN numbers, serial numbers and big numbers for buying some parts.

 Matching numbers are nice but add little to the value of the car. Maybe some day it will mean something but right now they are not brining more at auction. I would say that all of your numbers match but lucky you because the 5 speed trans wasn't available until ' 66 so someone put that in your car. I doubt very much it was a factory install.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

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pj

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Re: chassis number vs engine number vs head number
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2011, 07:10:22 »
Heh, David,
I started out German and I still like numbers. Numbers make research possible. Yes, matching numbers are fun and a purist ought to care about them. Even so, I think the only numbers that are meaningful are what's printed on the data card. But, as you will read in many threads here, it's what YOU care about that matters. If you own your pagoda (and your Mustang?) as an investment, then Dan's point is worthwhile, namely that the ZF5 which does NOT match is going to add a lot more to the value of your pagoda than the matching numbers.

Do let us know about your adventures. Are there fun places to drive around Corpus Christi?
Peter J
1965 230SL #09474 named Dagny
2018 B250 4matic named Rigel

stickandrudderman

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Re: chassis number vs engine number vs head number
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 07:37:12 »
An early 230SL with 5 speed manual transmission. What else is there to know!!

Richard Madison

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Re: chassis number vs engine number vs head number
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2011, 09:07:19 »
David:

Among car fanciers, "Matched" usually means original to that car.

The best way to know what the car had originally is to get a copy of the Data Card which is available free from the MB Classic Center.
The data card has the numbers of the original engine and tranny, and a list of all options. The Card does not show cam numbers but is is a good guide to "originality" if that's what you want to know.

Comparing Pagoda owners to vintage Ford Mustang owners, as an example, Pagoda people are not crazy about numbers or about the correct bolt, etc. It's nice but not really important to most Pagoda fans.

Richard M, NYC
1969 280 SL, Tunis Beige, Euro Model (Italy).

mdsalemi

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Re: chassis number vs engine number vs head number
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2011, 12:03:42 »
Matching numbers are nice but add little to the value of the car. Maybe some day it will mean something but right now they are not brining more at auction.

Dan is right, of course, but it is worth exploring what this "matching numbers" thing really means.

In the world of American cars, there were certain very rare muscle cars of the 1960s and early 70s until the genre went away.  Cars like Shelby Cobra Mustang GT350, GT500; Plymouth Super Bird, Hemi 'Cuda, ad infinitum.

Most of these muscle cars started their life as humble family sedans or coupes until the engineers got hold of them.  They made small numbers of the rare ones.

Fast forward to today, and it isn't difficult to take a large engine from another junked car (say, a Ford big block 427); slip it into a Mustang, and tart it up to be something eles.  Or convert a GT350 to a 500.  Or stick a Chrysler 440 into...you get the idea.

NOW, the numbers don't match.  You don't have one of the "rare cars" but a pedestrian sedan that somebody made either trying to be fast and furious, or trying to dupe an unsuspecting buyer, or capitalize on the price differential between pedestrian and rare.

WE don't have that kind of issue here, because there are not (sorry, 250 SL owners...) rare versions of our Pagodas that command a large price differential.  I do understand that some sort of rare MB cars have been "fabricated", such as converting a rare coupe (280 SE 3.5?)  to an even rarer cabriolet...that pricing differential will make it worth the restorer's money if done right, I would suspect.

However, the nice thing about matching numbers from the data card is it will tell you the pedigree of the car, and how well it was maintained.  I personally would not want a 230 SL with anything but a 230 SL engine.  It would not matter much if that engine had been rebuilt or changed along the way, as long as it was changed properly.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 12:12:06 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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