Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project

[GGR]

Thanks !

I got the flywheel back from balancing. I'm now waiting for the clutch parts I've ordered. I'm still to determine what disc to use as thre are several options available.

I've also looked into the camshafts issue. It appears that the 560SL has some odd intake timing most seemingly due to smog regulations which I am not bound to. So I will be using some early euro camshafts I have. I may end up with a good 275/280 hp with very good low end torque that will do well with the 6.3 2.82 rear end.

So the program of the week-end is to swap the camshafts and rockers, replace valve stem seals as well as the inner left chain guide rail (it's all recent but it's for peace of mind. Especially that inner left rail which is the culprit for catastrophic failure when it breaks). 

[GGR]

So yesterday I swapped the camshafts and rockers, replaced valve stem seals as well as the inner left chain guide rail. I also fitted some 4.5 cam covers as they are not ribbed and look more period with the Pagoda.

[GGR]

Update: I got the clutch disc I ordered. I did a mock-up install with the bell housing, yoke, throw-out bearing and clutch in place and it all fits well. I received the Getrag adaptation bracket from Mkbull and it looks good.

I then finished the install of the alternator set-up. Cleaned and painted everything and it's now all in place with the right length belt.

I then checked the ignition distributor I will be using, cleaned it and controlled play. It all looks good. I lubricated the centrifugal advance system and fitted it on the engine with an orange cap so it looks period, together with the smooth top alloy 450SL cam covers instead of the later ribbed ones.

Next step will be to clean and check all the injection fuel circuit: distributor, FPR, injectors etc. and fit them back into place. By then the engine will be finished in its configuration to go into the Pagoda. I will then look into the transmission. It is supposed to be in good working order but I will replace seals and possibly re-seal the rear section also.

All for now


 

[GGR]

I finally saw that 5.6L V8 mated to that getrag 265 with the AMG bellhousing. It all makes a big chunck of aluminum that looks quite good. The engine is quite compact with the use of the V valley for the air-plenum and intake manifold. I find it a good combination of displacement, volume and weight that should fit quite tightly but nicely in the Pagoda engine Bay.

I am still to tackle the fuel circuit and injection bits. I am debating whether to send the distributor to be checked/rebuilt, try it myself, or leave it alone. It all worked well three years ago before I took it out of the engine. I heard mixed reports on the rebuild of these fuel distributors, so I may as well leave it alone.  I may then buy the needed test gages and control if all is well once in the car. If not I will decide then what to do. 

[GGR]

OK, all the injection stuff is back in place. Cleaned injectors and fuel lines. I left the fuel distributor alone as well as the warm-up regulator. They were working fine three years ago and the piston in the midddle of the fuel distributor is moving freely. I also finished all the vacuum lines. So the engine is now finished. I now need to tackle the resealing of the Getrag 265 transmission. After that I will put the 2.85 rear end together.

I spent the week end putting away all the engine parts and stuff I don't need anymore into boxes to make some space in the Garage and getting the trans stuff out. Rear end boxes are also now in the front ready for access. Garage is now all organized for the next steps.

I've also thought of a way to lower the engine. I think I'm going to use different engine mounts that will make the engine sit lower. I still need to find the right ones but I have a few ideas already. 

[GGR]

I have resealed the Getrag 265 transmission and it is now mated to the engine. Mating that Getrag 265 transmission to the 5.6 M117 engine was one of the biggest modification work involved in that project. Though I was lucky to get one of these AMG bellhousings I still had to modify a flywheel, adapt a starter ring gear, make sure it was positioned correctly relative to the starter motor, find the right pressure plate and clutch disk that would take the Getrag spline patttern while fitting on the flywheel and pressure plate, adapt the input shaft to the bigger pilot bearing, adapt the slave cylinder etc. That's now all done and I'm quite happy with the result.

I also received the engine mounts I ordered. This will lower the engine by a good 3 to 4 centimeters. I hope this will be more than enough. In case it's too much, it is then easier to raise the engine by using shims between the mount and the engine arm as I did on my Coupe.

I've also now taken out all of the boxes with all the rear end bits I need to make that 2.85 rear end ratio that would fit the traditional spring suspension of the Pagoda. I will need to pay proper attention the the ring and pinion adjustment which is not the easiest thing to do, especially if I need to get that left wheel tube bearing race out to replace the shims behind it.

[dseretakis]

Wow, this is exciting stuff! Funny the originality Nazis have not attacked yet!

[GGR]

Ha ha ! In this regard, I noted with some amusement in the last (very good) Pagoda World the recommendation made to walk away from Frankenstein monsters (p. 23) when at the very next page starts an excellent explanation on how to fit a BMW transmission in a Pagoda. My engine being an MB, the car will be more of a Frankenbenz, if that makes any difference.

Anyway, having members tolerating such a "subversive" thread of mine for that long without firing on it, even if some surely do not approve its contents, shows that everybody is open minded in this group. That's good.

Back to my Franken activities, part of my week-end was used to put together a Franken rear end: I had rebuilt the LSD earlier when I was planning to use that 2.82 on my Coupe, so I didn't have to do it this time. I also took the cooling tube out and blocked the ports with bolts. I may place a vent on the left wheel tube as Dan recommends.
 
I also have checked the sliding joint I will be using and that carrier inside which is often broken. This one was fine so it's all good to go. I will be also using roller wheel bearing on both sides ala 6.3 for better handling the torque. I've ordered all the seals and bushings so next time is to put the rear end together permanently and paint it.

Next step is to come with a system to tilt the brake booster bracket by 45* so that the booster sits more to the left in order to clear the left cam cover. This system will allow me not to drill the firewall more towards the left and keep to pedal assembly where it is.
 

[Peter van Es]

Ah well, but this is a "Research" project in the proper forum. No-one can complain at that. Research also involves finding out what you don't want to do to your car if you are against un-original modifications.

Keep us informed... and do provide driving comparisons and reviews!

Peter

[GGR]

Keep us informed... and do provide driving comparisons and reviews!

Peter

Thanks! Regarding comparisons and reviews I just made one about my 5.0 Coupe here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=14796.msg114907#msg114907

The experience I gathered with my Coupe project is surely helping me with my Pagoda one !

[dseretakis]

Yes I'll bring my welder. I'm up for creating a franken cooling tube:)

[GGR]

Spent a few hours yesterday on the rear axle: tighetened crown on diff carrier as per specs and sealed and closed the rear axle. Still waiting for pinion and wheel axle seals to finish rear end assembly.

[GGR]

Painted the rear end and a few other bits. Modified the rear case of the Getrag 265 to clear the Pagoda tunnel. Also cleaned and started taking apart a good spare steering box to reseal it as soon as I receive the seals. Next Saturday I will be supporting some friends participating in the Lemons race in Summit Point. Sunday I will see how to adapt the fuel pump pack.

[GGR]

Resealed steering box. Need to take fuel pump pack apart, clean it, repaint brackets and fit new filter and hoses.

Transplant time is approaching. Need to decide what to do about the suspension: Mechatronik springs and shocks, or shocks alone? 

I will start by the rear end, as I did with the Coupe : drop fuel tank as well to check for rust and treat as required. Rust proof all the rear part of the chassis and then repaint with chassis black or tobacco brown like the rest of the car. I'm a bit puzzled because I always heard and read that the under of the Pagodas has to be body color but mine is not. It's more black/gray and I'm sure it's original.

[hkollan]

car. I'm a bit puzzled because I always heard and read that the under of the Pagodas has to be body color but mine is not. It's more black/gray and I'm sure it's original.

Pagodas where never painted on the underside, just primer, PVC coating and protective wax.

Hans

[GGR]

The project has been on hold for a few weeks as I was visiting family and friends in Europe. While there I dug out some suspension sprigs out of my father's basement. They were initially on a W111 Coupe that had been fitted with an M100 6.9 in the seventies in Belgium. They are blue, so I think they are after-market performance items of the era. The rear springs have same wire diameter and number of coils as the stock ones, but they are a bit shorter. Front ones definitely have a thicker wire diameter than original and also look a bit shorter, though I do not have a loose stock front spring to compare length with. I may give a try to that set of springs for now as it is free. 

I now need to find the courage to  dive into the swap. I'm procastinating as I know the work awaiting for me under the car for having done the same on my Coupe and it's quite daunting.

[GGR]

So, I finally found the courrage to dive into it. I have decided to start from the rear end. Jacked up the car on stands, battled a bit to disconnect the down pipes from the manifolds, got the exhaust out, then took the fuel pump and fuel tank down, and finally the rear axle. Took the callipers, rotors and emergency brake out as I will need them on the new axle.

The underside of the car looks very sound. There are only a few spots of surface rust mainly where the exhaust line was. My plan is to clean and brush all the underneath very well, rust proof and paint everything.

Tomorrow I will also compare the various springs I have to find the best combination. The compensating spring looks quite long compare to the other I have lying around.

[GGR]

The past ten days saw quite some intensive work on the project. Cleaning all the uderside, taking the undercoating out where it doesn't stick anymore, rust proofing and painting. The original MB undercoating is really the ennemy. With time, it dried out in some places letting moisture in between the coating and the metal and letting the rusting process operate quietly. I took all the coating out where it wasn't holding anymore, and fortunately found only surface rust. The other issue are oil and trans fluid leakages that soften the coating and it also came out in some places due to that. This coating becomes a real rust trap with time. 

Anyway, all the under side of the car is now rustproofed and painted and good for 40 more years. Same with gas tank.

I put everything back together with the 2.82 rear axle that I had built earlier. I kept the stock side springs for time being.

I then spent quite some time fabricating a bracket to hold the new fuel pump assy. It now seats nicely in the little space available (compared to the coupe) with a cover to protect it from water splashes and road grim.

Time has now come to deal with the front part of the project.

[justininia]

Good day, sir.

Since I am barely qualified to touch a Mercedes let alone make modification suggestions, I will stick to the easier topic of your stereo speakers.  Blaupunkt and others make ultra thin 6.9 three way speakers.   Ultra thin is a bit optimistic but the mount with a 2.25" depth making them a good fit in a lot of tight places.  The speakers might fit into the fender side of the foot well.  The passenger side has the hole for the power antenna but I couldn't tell how much room it takes up.  The driver side is covered and would have to be cut out.  Interestingly, there is an approximately 3" hole down by the hinge pillar with four studded holes around it.  Small speakers could be placed there.

Monsoon used to make magnetic planar computer speakers, about .75" thick.  Though you would need something to produce low-end frequencies (besides road noises ), a set of those would also work.  I don't know if they are still in business but once upon a time I retro fit a set with an iPod, small amp, and a 6AH battery for making a bicycle stereo system.  It should certainly work in a car.  A quick search on eBay for "Monsoon speaker" turned up a set for $15.  The only issue is that they need a powered driver, which means no direct-to-iPod wiring.  Polk Audio also makes a thinner set (1.75") in a rectangular configuration that also fit the bill with a better range since they are two-way.

I also kind of like the idea of replicating the wood grille that covers the center speaker and mounting it to the top of the transmission tunnel in a nice little leather covered box, as close to the underside of the dash as possible.  Mount two small speakers in one box, with each facing a headrest.  Run the wiring under the carpet right up to the radio.  It "busies" up that transmission tunnel but the wood grille should appear to belong on first glance.  Or match it to the facing of the heating/cooling vents. 

The easy answer is to build a reinforcing bracket and mount them in the rear wall.  It mean cutting out holes but the rear upholstery covers the hole.  6x9 drivers easily power through the material and provide enough sound to be heard.  The downside is that they are visible in the trunk.

The interior is still out of the 280 we are fitting with the 3.5L.  I'll take a look at the structure tonight and see if any other ideas come up.

[GGR]

Thanks Justininia for these tips on the speakers. I will surely consider them when I reach there.

I have taken engine, trans, front axle, steering box and linkages out of the car from underneath. I then stipped the engine bay out of all what was i it. It is now time to clean and treat surface rust in the engine bay. Front axle had no play but the rubber seals are "cooked" so I will be replacing them. I took the front suspension springs out and compared them with the aftermarket performance ones I dug out from my father's basement: the latter are one inch shorter, have the same number of coils and the wire is thicker, so they must be stiffer by quite a bit. I'm going to use them.

[GGR]

Cleaned and repainted everything. 5.6 motor with 5 speed Getrag 265 trans and front axle carrier are in the car. TIGHT FIT is the best to describe the situation. All clears and hood closes. I now have to work on the brake booster/pedal assy.

[GGR]

I re-positioned the brake booster and pedal assy a bit towards the left to clear the cam cover. Dimitri came to DC last week and as he is a master welder we did all the welding work that was needed: adjustable shifter rod, throttle actuation rod, 560SL radiator modification, prop shaft (BMW flange onto MB front shaft to mate the Getrag), and the down-pipes that turned to be a real work of art. With the prop shaft welded I could work on engine/trans alignement. This week-end will be spend in test-fitting all the bespoke parts. Then I will have to grind all the weldings, paint all the parts and fit them. By then the mechanical part of the transplant will be finished. I will be left with the engine wiring and interface between the stock harness and engine.

Here are two pictures that Dimitri took:

[jaymanek]

I love this thread, look forward to updates.

[GGR]

I love this thread, look forward to updates.

Thanks !

I grinded all the welds and painted all the parts. All is now in place. I even managed to find a shifter boot that looks good with the square opening in the carpet (originally for auto). All gears seem to select.

I have worked on part of the wiring. I relocated the battery in the trunk. Part of the challenge is that I converted from auto to manual trans so I had to sort out the starter lockout switch which I just did this morning. So now engine is cranking when I turn the key. The other challenge is the US anti-emission set-up of the '71 US model. A lot of wires in the loom that I feel I won't need to hook up, but I still need to sort that out. I also need to hook up the temp sensors.

I also called Timevalve and they're making me a bespoke exhaust: they're also using mandrel bent pipes. Michael was very helpful on the phone and the price is the same as a standard Pagoda exhaust they make. Can't complain. I can't wait to get it delivered, next week if all goes well.

I'am also waiting for a few parts I ordered for the clutch hydraulic circuit. I'm also left with a bit of electrical work, but all in all, first start is quite close. I don't know when this will be because I can only work on it on week ends and I will be away most of November on mission.   

[stickandrudderman]

Those rocker covers are not from a 560. Did you swap them for those off a 450?