Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project

[dseretakis]

Timevalve for the resonator and muffler end?  I hope you're still using the header pipes we made!!!!

[GGR]

Those rocker covers are not from a 560. Did you swap them for those off a 450?

Yes, they are from a 450SL.

[GGR]

I hope you're still using the header pipes we made!!!!

I surely do ! They must be the most beatiful piece of work on that car, thanks to all your patience and skills !

Below are some more pictures showing how I fitted the ignition system, showing clearance after moving the brake booster towards the left, and also showing the radiator. Also one picture showing tight clearance with right exhaust manifold.

[GGR]

Ignition set-up

[GGR]

.

[dseretakis]

I surely do ! They must be the most beatiful piece of work on that car, thanks to all your patience and skills !

Phew!!  Thanks, it was fun and I learned a lot in the process

[dseretakis]

Booster clearnace after relocating towards the left. I still need to find a place for the windshield washer tank. I think I'm going to go for a round one in lieu and place of the original air filter housing.

That booster looks like a tight fit.

[GGR]

Right Manifold tight clearance :

[GGR]

Firewall and throttle actuation:

[GGR]

Well, the radiator picture doesn't load, too big.

Yes, the booster is a tight fit,  but there is enough clearance with the Valve cover including to remove the VC, which is important for maintenance.

[jaymanek]

Thats very good.

You should have found a euro 560, hardly any extra electronics and emissions stuff.. and 300 BHP compared to the US 240..

One thing I cannot understand is how they will make the exhaust without the car, on a bespoke creation like this, surely they have to make it to fit?

[stickandrudderman]

Nice work.
Are you sure that that exhaust is not going to foul when you load the engine?

[GGR]

Thats very good.

You should have found a euro 560, hardly any extra electronics and emissions stuff.. and 300 BHP compared to the US 240..

One thing I cannot understand is how they will make the exhaust without the car, on a bespoke creation like this, surely they have to make it to fit?

Not all euro 560 are 300hp. The majority of the Euro 560s were around 270hp with 9:1CR pistons and "euro logs" manifolds. And they are all equipped with the Gen 2 KE-jet system, E being for electronics. Then depending on the market threre is more or less emission stuff on top of it. The US long blocks are the same as the 9:1CR euro long blocks. The power difference with the US version has to do with exhaust and emission control.

So, I went for a US long block because I got a good low mileage one near where I leave. In its current trim, with euro injection, ignition, camshafts and relatively free flowing exhaust I think the engine will be around 270-280 hp. I will need to dyno it when the car is finished.

From my experience with the Coupe project, power is not going to be a problem. There will be plenty of power and torque everywhere and the challenge is going to have the chassis, suspension and brakes handle it properly to get an homogenous result.

the end of my down pipes fall in line with the Pagoda's exhaust line at the transmission level. So I just had to tell Michael of Timevalve where my downpipes are ending.

[GGR]

Nice work.
Are you sure that that exhaust is not going to foul when you load the engine?

The exhaust I'm having made may be OK for the 270-280 hp I'm planning to get out of the engine.

[pagoden]

When I read the post by Stick&Rudder I thought perhaps he was referring to physical contact between the engine and frame components under torque load, as the fit appears so close in the photo.
  
You've made great progress since I saw you last.  And I'm jealous of your Benz Dr rear axle vent upgrade (sure wish I'd known the answer to that one before my axle swap - - heck, wish I'd been smart enough to figure it out for myself).  Do you plan to go ahead with installation of the 109 anti-dive components and/or any other brainstorms you may have had regarding handling limitations?  [I remember when the Chevy small-blocks hadn't been out for very long, there was a guy across town who put a few in MGAs.  His fundamental handling mod was to go out at night and steal a manhole cover or two to bolt  into the trunk/boot.  I was a pretty young driver then and never got my hands on one.  Could be why I'm still here.  I later learned what a nice handling little package the A was in its original form; very sweet, rotating around just where you sat, but with that 265/283 in it...?]    

PS - I was privileged recently to meet with Justininia and his principal.  They're doing some fine work in inserting the 3.5 into their transplant recipient out in the midwest, and now need to get the previous endeavor, a (now) very pretty 190SL, off to its proper home in order to have room for the Pagoda's final reassembly.  It has required, among a few other things, a major rebuilding of the cowl/firewall area; the old heaterbox tin looks like lacework and gives an idea of how far they've come.  Things look quite tight with the 3.5 in there, and a 560 in the same space boggles the mind a little, though I guess it's actually a little shorter vertically, isn't it?... is that from shorter stroke, shallower crank angle, or both?  [I'd never imagined that big V8 as an undersquare engine, though I guess it isn't such a "Big V8" except in a European context.  Plenty big enough for me to contemplate: ~50% increase in hp...hmmn.]

I'm not the only one who takes vicarious pleasure in these projects.  Thanks from the armchair mod-squad for your updates, gentlemen.  We look forward to seeing these creations in the sunlight in The 50th Year.  

[stickandrudderman]

When I read the post by Stick&Rudder I thought perhaps he was referring to physical contact between the engine and frame components under torque load, as the fit appears so close in the photo.

Correct!

[GGR]

I see. In fact the picture gives a bit of a wrong impression by flattening the perspective. In reality the manifold is a bit lower and below the area that looks very narrow on the picture.

[GGR]

 You've made great progress since I saw you last.  And I'm jealous of your Benz Dr rear axle vent upgrade (sure wish I'd known the answer to that one before my axle swap - - heck, wish I'd been smart enough to figure it out for myself).  Do you plan to go ahead with installation of the 109 anti-dive components and/or any other brainstorms you may have had regarding handling limitations?  [I remember when the Chevy small-blocks hadn't been out for very long, there was a guy across town who put a few in MGAs.  His fundamental handling mod was to go out at night and steal a manhole cover or two to bolt  into the trunk/boot.  I was a pretty young driver then and never got my hands on one.  Could be why I'm still here.  I later learned what a nice handling little package the A was in its original form; very sweet, rotating around just where you sat, but with that 265/283 in it...?]   

PS - I was privileged recently to meet with Justininia and his principal.  They're doing some fine work in inserting the 3.5 into their transplant recipient out in the midwest, and now need to get the previous endeavor, a (now) very pretty 190SL, off to its proper home in order to have room for the Pagoda's final reassembly.  It has required, among a few other things, a major rebuilding of the cowl/firewall area; the old heaterbox tin looks like lacework and gives an idea of how far they've come.  Things look quite tight with the 3.5 in there, and a 560 in the same space boggles the mind a little, though I guess it's actually a little shorter vertically, isn't it?... is that from shorter stroke, shallower crank angle, or both?  [I'd never imagined that big V8 as an undersquare engine, though I guess it isn't such a "Big V8" except in a European context.  Plenty big enough for me to contemplate: ~50% increase in hp...hmmn.]

I'm not the only one who takes vicarious pleasure in these projects.  Thanks from the armchair mod-squad for your updates, gentlemen.  We look forward to seeing these creations in the sunlight in The 50th Year. 

Thanks !

No, I'm not planning to go with the W109 anti-dive components for now. I went for stiffer springs in the front and stiffer shocks all round. I'l see how it goes. I may revert to a complete 6.3 axle if needed at a later stage, but this would require welding some anchoring points in the chassis. So far, I did not have to modify anything on the chassis. The V8 is aluminum block and is the same weight as the original engine. It sits a bit lower and a bit backwards, closer to the car's center of gravity. So handling may be improved.

The 3.5 (M116) and 5.6 (M117) long blocks look the same. The M117 has a bit higher block decks due to a longer stroke. So the M117 is half an inch wider and taller compared to the M116. I'm hoping for 280 hp DIN, which is a bit more than 50% additional power compared to the original 160hp. But the real big difference will be torque.

The car may be in working order for the 50th anniversary, but the body won't have been addressed by then yet. I was lucky to find a rust free example with a very well preserved leather interior and a new soft top, but nearly every body panel has some dings.


How is your aircon install coming along? How is your transmission now?



 

[GGR]

I received the ignition green wire and istalled it yesterday. And guess what ? The engine fired right away and idled smoothly. I couldn't keep it running long because I'm still waiting for the exhaust and I don't want the neighborhood start complainig because of the noise. But that's quite encouraging. I'm also happy I didn't get the wiring interface between engine and car loom wrong. I will have to check ignition timing with a stroboscopic lamp when I can let the engine run long enough to reach oprating temperature, as it seems to lack a tad bit of advance.

I'm also waiting for a clutch hose. Once fitted, I will be able to bleed the clutch and the brakes, and hopefully go fo a first test drive.

[dseretakis]

Congratulations. Very exciting! Can't wait to drive it

[GGR]

Today I sorted the ignition advance and the engine now runs super smoothly. It also responds very well to throttle, quite promising. No leaks so far. I'm stuck without clutch and without exhaust. All the rest is done. I hope the transmission and rear axle willl be fine. I can't wait! 

[dseretakis]

How much longer until exhaust arrives?

[GGR]

I was hoping to get it today but it will most likely be delivered on Monday.

[stickandrudderman]

Exciting!!

[GGR]

I've been on mission abroad for nearly a month and when i came back home I found the clutch hose waiting for me. So I spent Saturday fitting the exhaust and sorting out the clutch hose. Halas, the hose was not the right one so I had to jerry-rig one with the right endings. This is temporary until I get the right hose. Sunday morning, I was able to go for the first test drive, which was quite exciting. The car works very well, so well that I felt confident enough to take it on the highway. The 5.6L engine is very smooth, transmission works very well, rear end works great, no whining or rattling. Quite satisfactory for a first test drive, especially considering the huge mix of parts this project is, and potentential for something to go wrong at the beginning. On the way, the temporary clutch hose system came apart due to pressure and I had to drive back home without being able to actuate the clutch. Not too much of a problem as I once drove back from Poland to France wit a broken clutch cable, so that was a good training.

The good: everything works well together, no vibrations so far, rear end, transmission, clutch (apart from the hose),  engine, all work superbly. Very encouraging.

What needs to be looked into: the clutch hose obviously, but also an hydro lifter which is noisy. The car sits a bit high in the front, so I may have to cut one coil out of these aftermarket springs I fitted. Speedo doesn't work, I wonder why. I hope the problem is not inside the trans. I also need to sort out the tacho and fit the internals of a V8 electronic one. I also have a small coolant leak that I wasn't able to locate exactly yet. All of this will keep me busy over the winter weekends. But basically, the conversion seems to be very sound, without any major flaw, or at least it's not obvious yet.