Author Topic: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project  (Read 254041 times)

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #150 on: September 21, 2013, 22:13:05 »
Last week end I drove to Williamsburg for the 50th anniversary event and it was very nice to meet with so many other Pagoda enthousiats. It was also great to put some faces on forum user names. This led to some funny situations when I thought I was talking to someone I didn't know while in fact we knew each other from the forum. Dan, Pierre, Joe and Gernold spent their time helping Pagoda owners with all kind of support and advice. It was really great of them, and they were clearly enjoying doing so.

The event was also attended by a very nice 300SEL 6.3. I have a soft spot for these cars as I owned one in Europe and drove it about 50.000 kms in the most beautiful places (I have fond memories of the "Route Napoleon" where the car's comfort and performance came to their best!)  before Kienle sold it for me (I really recommend their services). A very nice 600 SWB also attended, in 904 dark blue which is my favorite color for MBs of that era. I had the joy of going around in it as a rear passenger. The whole purpose of the ride was to listen to a strange noise the car was making and help the owner sort out the issue. But clearly, for a while, I had the impression of being a Head of State driven around by a chauffeur and a great body guard sitting in the front passenger seat (for the ones who know Pierre Hedary, you got the picture!). The other passenger next to me would have been the Host Head of State. For the rest, I guess passers by may have thought we were a bunch of lunatics as we were driving around the block again and again with our heads sticking out of the four windows trying to determine where that noise was coming from (most likely from the drive shaft, though I have my doubts as at one point I thought the noise was rpm related). To make the picture complete, for some reason, the other rear passenger came in with a spare steering wheel which I was holding mimicking driving from the rear. In fact I think we got quite lucky that nobody called 911!

But the really crazy thing about the event (at least for me!) is that it was attended by no less than three Pagoda V8s!!!!!!! That was a good 7.5% of the attending cars!  All three were fitted with MB M117 engines. The first one is an older conversion on a 230 which drove from Kentuky. It is equipped with an alloy block 5.0L motor, an automatic transmission, and I believe a 3.27 rear end. The second one is a conversion on a 280SL, white with red interior, that was just finished a few days before the event. It drove from New England with a 5.6L, automatic transmission and 2.82 rear end. The finish of this conversion is outstanding, and the motor was fitted with a 4.5 intake manifold and EFI so as to look period correct. The idea is the same as the one developed by Hatch and Sons, but the concept was taken further by fitting the rear brake anti dive system as found on the 300SEL 6.3. The third one was mine, with a more sporty approach given the manual transmission, Euro spec motor, general lightening and work on the suspensions. The owner of the second car and myself exchanged cars and we really had a great time comparing them, with some hair raising moments! Globally his car has been developed in a cruising spirit and it surely does so in great style. The engine works great and the automatic transmission and A/C make for a nice and relaxed drive. We found my car to be quite faster, as indeed it was developed in a more sporting spirit.

Finally, I was quite happy to hear Joe Alexander say he was impressed by the quality of my conversion and that I did a great job. Given his expertise and competence, I really take it as a very valuable compliment. I hope to have him drive the car one day as his racing experience will certainly have him come with some extremely valuable advice on the car balance, suspension etc. May be next year at PUB?

We also had a great discussion with Joe and Peter Lesler (former MBCA President) on how to improve Pagodas' performance: Peter raced a Pagoda some time ago and we exchanged all kind of tricks. This was very interesting, and it was great to see how each of us approached some same issues, with sometimes different solutions, but always out of fertile imaginations!

Too bad we have to wait 50 more years to come with such a gathering again!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:20:43 by GGR »

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #151 on: September 21, 2013, 23:31:21 »
Today I attended a DIY tech session organized by the MBCA local section, hosted by the Mercedes dealer at Tyson's Corner next to Washington DC. The objective for MB owners was to do some maintenance or sort out whatever issue they had on their car with the support of competent staff. My own objective was to put my car on a lift, have a look under there and see if all was still in good order after my trip across the US last July, and to take some pictures, as I realize I never did take much pictures of my conversion, even less from underneath. So I took a few, and I'm posting some here.

In the meantime, Norbert Lamp, well known MB vintage specialist (the car whisperer...), helped me track a slight play I had in the steering system. We replaced the relay arm bushings and all got back in order. Norbert shared with me some interesting tricks on how to reduce the infamous rear camber change on the rear axle by restraining the travel of the compensating spring. He did so on the car of one of his clients who was auto-cross racing a Pagoda, with some great results. He also told me how to lengthen the life of the front axle mounts by using a longer bolt through the stop plates. I may give it some consideration next time I take them out, whenever that will be. I also had some good discussions with a few local MB enthousiasts, particularly with the owner of a concours winning yellow r107 which is absolutely stunning. That person also owns two Ferraris and is very performance oriented. We had quite a good exchange on exhaust technology and how to create back pressure at lower rev so as to have the CIS work properly with more aggressive camshafts (the nightmare of Porsche owners!).

So below are some pictures. The first one is Norbert driving my car into the workshop, with Bill Hopper in the background. Next ones are of my original leather interior:
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:25:15 by GGR »

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #152 on: September 21, 2013, 23:35:22 »
Following pictures are of my engine bay from above, showing how the 5.6L sits, fitted with the early euro CIS and ignition. Also some pictures taken from underneath the car. I didn't clean these areas after my trip across the US so they are still full of dust collected on some of the most scenic dirt roads of the country. To top it all, I had my right cam cover seal that broke at one point during the trip and I drove a few days with a bad oil leak before I could replace it which ended up messing all the undercarriage. But at least, this is proof that this car is no trailer queen!

« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 21:20:13 by GGR »

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #153 on: September 21, 2013, 23:53:09 »
Following pictures show the Getrag 265 5 speed manual transmission with the AMG bellhousing, the way it is held in place using some additional brackets fitted onto Mark Turnbull's bracket (the V8 being shorter than the original M130, the transmission sits slightly forward. These additional brackets allow me to fine tune drive line alignment).

You can also see the front part of the drive shaft, with the front BMW flange welded to the MB shaft. The weld is where the shaft diameter changes, and it was done by Dimitri so nicely that the shaft didn't need any balancing (this is my first MB where I don't have to fight drive shaft vibrations!)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 21:21:35 by GGR »

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2013, 00:01:14 »
The next picture shows how I fitted the CIS fuel pump, filter and damper. Finally, you can see where the battery sits in the trunk.
 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 21:22:45 by GGR »

dseretakis

  • Guest
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2013, 22:22:01 »
My welds may look pretty - at least as pretty as a mig weld can look, but the true test is if they hold up! You've now driven cross country and back with a beast of an engine putting a hefty amount of torque on that driveshaft weld. That is the true test - at least I think. I'm not an engineer!

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2013, 23:09:44 »
Yes, the drive shaft is holding with no problem at all.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 15:28:05 by GGR »

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #157 on: October 03, 2013, 13:47:24 »
In fact all the parts you welded work flawlessly: the shifter mechanism, the pedal to throttle mechanism etc.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 15:27:45 by GGR »

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2013, 13:51:29 »
I finally fitted the speedo gears in the back of the transmission. The speed now works but reads 30% slower than it should.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 15:30:11 by GGR »

pmorgan

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • USA, ME, Auburn
  • Posts: 8
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #159 on: October 04, 2013, 14:26:47 »
Gael:

I enjoyed seeing you at the P50 event and getting to share our cars with Pierre Hedary, Pete Lesler, Joe Alexander, and others you mentioned.
I was surprised that you didn't mention the entertainment we provided the attendees, taking turns driving our respective M117-powered Pagodas around the grounds.  For those who weren't there, I will include a pic of my engine compartment for them.  Nothing however compares to the noises of our cars driving on the streets!  Thanks again for letting me enjoy a short drive in yours!

- - Phil
- - Phil
'68-280SL white body w/red interior, 5.6L AL engine

dseretakis

  • Guest
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #160 on: October 06, 2013, 03:41:53 »
So how can you go about making the speedo read the correct speed?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 21:40:06 by dseretakis »

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #161 on: October 06, 2013, 04:00:04 »
I've been looking for a solution regarding the speedo and I came across a speedo ratio adapter. But I will need to have the speedo cable modified as the adapter goes in series anywhere along the cable.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 15:29:16 by GGR »

dseretakis

  • Guest
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #162 on: October 13, 2013, 23:15:15 »
Phil, your car looks awesome. I would like to see it someday as we are quasi-neighbors. I heard from Gael that you did a first class job!

Gael:

I enjoyed seeing you at the P50 event and getting to share our cars with Pierre Hedary, Pete Lesler, Joe Alexander, and others you mentioned.
I was surprised that you didn't mention the entertainment we provided the attendees, taking turns driving our respective M117-powered Pagodas around the grounds.  For those who weren't there, I will include a pic of my engine compartment for them.  Nothing however compares to the noises of our cars driving on the streets!  Thanks again for letting me enjoy a short drive in yours!

- - Phil

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #163 on: February 05, 2014, 15:46:15 »
Yesterday I took my Pagoda to a dyno. Results were 230 rear wheel hp DIN at about 4750 rpm and 285 ft.lb of torque at about 3800 rpm. That's about 275 to 280 hp DIN and 345 ft.lb at the crankshaft. Regarding Hp, that's about right, as compared to the 300hp version of the M117 560 motor I am not using the tri-Y exhaust manifold system (was not clearing the Pagoda chassis rails) which have been measured to yield an additional 15hp over the euro log set-up I have. My engine is also 9:1 CR instead of 10:1 CR. However, torque seems to be slightly over the 336 ft.lb of the 300 hp version. Peak power and torque on my engine are also reached at respectively 250 and 200 rpm below the 300hp version (5000 and 4000) indicating that my camshafts may be a tad bit advanced. I should be able to get my max figures at 5000 and 4000 rpm by retarding my camshafts by 3 to 4 degrees with offset woodruff keys, gaining a few more hp in the process. In any case, that's not bad compared to the 230hp the engine started its life with in a 560SL, and considering that the long block has stayed absolutely stock. My target when I started the build was 275 hp, so I'm good, and there there is room for a bit of improvement acting on the camshafts timing.

We also measured maximum speed on the dyno: 150 mph in 4th gear at 6000 rpm and 180 mph in 5th gear. However, in real life it may be different, taking the car's aerodynamics and weight into consideration. I went on an online calculator using an estimated 17.3 square feet as a frontal area (with hard top) and 0.42 cd. Result was still over 170 mph. I guess the car would be able to reach a good 160 to 165 mph on a long straight, flat, with no wind.

We also weighed the car with a fancy system of four scales, one under each wheel, communicating with a computer. Result was 1340 kg with a full tank, without hard top, but with soft top, spare wheel, jack, tools etc., corresponding to the definition of curb weight. 53% on the front, 47% on the rear. This is 20 kg lighter than the factory figure for a 280SL. Not bad, considering that I have power steering and a 5 speed transmission. Factory figure is with no options. So I would say my car is 30 to 35 kg lighter than a stock 280SL with comparable equipment, with better weight distribution compared to the stock 56/44.

In any case, this is giving me an estimated ratio of 209 hp per ton. Online calculators says the car should be able to run 0 to 60 mph in 4.81s. This is theoretical as I doubt my 205mm wide tires would provide enough grip for that.

I spent a bit of time on the net to see how my car would compare with some other cars of the era. Below are a few:

1962 Mercedes 300 SL gullwing: 215 bhp, 1329 kg, 162bhp/ton, 160 mph

1973 Porsche Carrera 2.7 RS: 207 bhp, 1075 kg, 192 bhp/ton, 149 mph

1962 Ferrari 250 GTO: 296 bhp, 950 kg, 311 bhp/ton, 158 mph

1969 Ferrari 265 Daytona: 347 bhp, 1200 kg, 289 bhp/ton, 170 mph

1967 Iso Grifo 300GL: 295 bhp, 1450 kg, 204 bhp/ton, 143 mph

1971 Jaguar E Type V12: 272 bhp, 1500 kg, 181 bhp/ton, 142 mph

1972 Maserati Ghibli SS: 330 bhp, 1350 kg, 244 bhp/ton 160 mph

1967 Lamborghini Miura P400: 350 bhp, 1293 kg, 271 bhp/ton, 172mph

1969 Lamborghini Espada SII: 350 bhp, 1700 kg, 206 bhp/ton, 155mph

Note that power figures for these supercars of the 60s and 70s were often optimistic for marketing purposes. Putting them on a dyno today may yield very different figures, especially for the ones that are difficult to tune due to many carburetors, dual ignition distributors, valve clearance etc. In comparison, adjustments on my car are very simple and very stable, so there is no power loss in between two services.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 13:12:57 by GGR »

pmorgan

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • USA, ME, Auburn
  • Posts: 8
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #164 on: February 05, 2014, 16:08:48 »
Gael:
As I told you in Williamsburg, I got accurate speedometer and odometer readings by using a motor driven adapter taking cable input and generating a cable output proportional to the adjustment setting on the box.  At least as accurate as original factory drive.

Power ratings are very promising, Gael.  I am having some dyno testing on my 5.6 engine performed and will report them here when available.  I doubt they will match or exceed yours since my camshafts are stock.  I expect some jump over stock because of low restriction exhaust and custom tuned Link fuel/ignition system.

- - Phil
I've been looking for a solution regarding the speedo and I came across a speedo ratio adapter. But I will need to have the speedo cable modified as the adapter goes in series anywhere along the cable.
- - Phil
'68-280SL white body w/red interior, 5.6L AL engine

dseretakis

  • Guest
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #165 on: February 05, 2014, 22:36:34 »
Yesterday I took my Pagoda to a dyno. Results were 230 rear wheel hp DIN at about 4750 rpm and 285 ft.lb of torque at about 3800 rpm. That's about 275 to 280 hp DIN and 345 ft.lb at the crankshaft. Regarding Hp, that's about right, as compared to the 300hp version of the M117 560 motor I am not using the tri-Y exhaust manifold system (was not clearing the Pagoda chassis rails) which have been measured to yield an additional 15hp over the euro log set-up I have. My engine is also 9:1 CR instead of 10:1 CR. However, torque seems to be slightly over the 336 ft.lb of the 300 hp version. Peak power and torque on my engine are also reached at respectively 250 and 200 rpm below the 300hp version (5000 and 4000) indicating that my camshafts may be a tad bit advanced. I should be able to get my max figures at 5000 and 4000 rpm by retarding my camshafts by 3 to 4 degrees with offset woodruff keys, gaining a few more hp in the process. In any case, that's not bad compared to the 230hp the engine started its life with in a 560SL, and considering that the long block has stayed absolutely stock.

We also measured maximum speed on the dyno: 150 mph in 4th gear at 6000 rpm and 180 mph in 5th gear. However, in real life it may be different, taking the car's aerodynamics and weight into consideration. I went on an online calculator using an estimated 17.3 square feet as a frontal area (with hard top) and 0.42 cd. Result was still over 170 mph. I guess the car would be able to reach a good 160 to 165 mph on a long straight, flat, with no wind.

We also weighed the car with a fancy system of four scales, one under each wheel, communicating with a computer. Result was 1340 kg with a full tank, without hard top, but with soft top, spare wheel, jack, tools etc., corresponding to the definition of curb weight. 53% on the front, 47% on the rear. This is 20 kg lighter than the factory figure for a 280SL. Not bad, considering that I have power steering and a 5 speed transmission. Factory figure is with no options.

In any case, this is giving me an estimated ratio of 209 hp per ton. Online calculators says the car should be able to run 0 to 60 mph in 4.81s. This is theoretical as I doubt my 205mm wide tires would provide enough grip for that.

I spent a bit of time on the net to see how my car would compare with some other cars of the era. Below are a few:

1962 Mercedes 300 SL gullwing: 215 bhp, 1329 kg, 162bhp/ton, 160 mph

1973 Porsche Carrera 2.7 RS: 207 bhp, 1075 kg, 192 bhp/ton, 149 mph

1962 Ferrari 250 GTO: 296 bhp, 950 kg, 311 bhp/ton, 158 mph

1969 Ferrari 265 Daytona: 347 bhp, 1200 kg, 289 bhp/ton, 170 mph

1967 Iso Grifo 300GL: 295 bhp, 1450 kg, 204 bhp/ton, 143 mph

1971 Jaguar E Type V12: 272 bhp, 1500 kg, 181 bhp/ton, 142 mph

1972 Maserati Ghibli SS: 330 bhp, 1350 kg, 244 bhp/ton 160 mph

1967 Lamborghini Miura P400: 350 bhp, 1293 kg, 271 bhp/ton, 172mph

1969 Lamborghini Espada SII: 350 bhp, 1700 kg, 206 bhp/ton, 155mph

Note that power figures for these supercars of the 60s and 70s were often optimistic for marketing purposes. Putting them on a dyno today may yield very different figures, especially for the ones that are difficult to tune due to many carburetors, dual ignition distributors, valve clearance etc. In comparison, adjustments on my car are very simple and very stable, so there is no power loss in between two services.


That's a great result but please don't attempt to take a pagoda up to 165mph!!

pmorgan

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • USA, ME, Auburn
  • Posts: 8
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #166 on: February 05, 2014, 22:47:41 »
Gael:
Certainly, be very careful till you get an accurate speedometer in your Pagoda!
- - Phil
'68-280SL white body w/red interior, 5.6L AL engine

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #167 on: February 05, 2014, 23:16:02 »
That's a great result but please don't attempt to take a pagoda up to 165mph!!

Well, I may try it one day, just to see what the car is really capable of, if I find a way of doing it legally. I hear some highways in Montana do not have a speed limit. I also hear of events on old airport strips where people go for top speed, I wonder if there is such a thing on the East coast. I fitted a ratio adapter and my speedo is now reading correctly enough: 96mph on the dyno when speedo shows 100 mph. Tacho is also now working correctly.

dseretakis

  • Guest
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #168 on: February 05, 2014, 23:22:49 »
How about a racetrack? Do they have speed limits? Limerock in CT perhaps?

pmorgan

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • USA, ME, Auburn
  • Posts: 8
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #169 on: February 05, 2014, 23:44:23 »
I fitted a ratio adapter and my speedo is now reading correctly enough: 96mph on the dyno when speedo shows 100 mph. Tacho is also now working correctly.
Gael:
Glad to hear that you have got speedo working adequately. 
The best place I know of for speed runs is Mid Ohio.  I think they have a 2 mile straightaway.
There's also a place up here that friends have driven at speeds above 160.
Regards
 - - Phil
- - Phil
'68-280SL white body w/red interior, 5.6L AL engine

Garry

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Australia, Victoria, Kyneton and Brisbane Queensland
  • Posts: 5236
  • Audit Committee
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #170 on: February 06, 2014, 01:13:05 »
They have just removed the speed limit on a bit of road here in Australia.  Its in the dead centre of the country from Alice Springs for 200km north toward Darwin, mainly straight.  The speedsters have been getting on it at 250kph+ just to try it out.  Only one problem, it is only two lanes and there are Road Trains also on the road that are three or four semi trailers long with 80 tons on board.  Its a trial.  First time some one kills themselves I suspect the trial will be called off.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-01/speed-limits-shelved-for-nt-highway-sports-cars/5232388
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G
2005 MB A200
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Electric
2024 Volvo EX30 Electric

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #171 on: February 06, 2014, 01:22:44 »
Problem is that this 200km stretch of road is going to act as a magnet for all speed enthousiasts from all over Australia. It won't be a very representative trial. 

garymand

  • Inactive
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, CA, Meadow Vista
  • Posts: 537
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #172 on: February 06, 2014, 20:09:24 »
I searched but copuldn't find if you tried using a 560 radiator?  what have you ended with for the radiator and fan?
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, R350, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

pmorgan

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • USA, ME, Auburn
  • Posts: 8
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #173 on: February 06, 2014, 20:57:52 »
I searched but copuldn't find if you tried using a 560 radiator?  what have you ended with for the radiator and fan?
  On mine, a 6.9 radiator.
- - Phil
- - Phil
'68-280SL white body w/red interior, 5.6L AL engine

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #174 on: February 06, 2014, 22:27:05 »
I used a 450SLC 5.0 radiator, with a 9 blades plastic fan propeller.