Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project

[stickandrudderman]

I think you made the right choice!
I just recently bought a 6.3, only because I've never owned one. It need some fixing up but I'll probably get around to it some time in the next decade or so.................

[GGR]

A well sorted 6.3 is a very nice car to drive. But it is a hotrod in many aspects. When working in the engine bay one quickly realizes that the M100 engine was never meant to be there. Access to some parts are just a headache: cleaning/replacing the alcohol bottle on the suspension circuit or replacing some front air lines that connect on the front axle under the engine mount brackets may well end up into some scratched knuckles for example.

A nice 6.3 offers a rather unique combination of massive torque, comfort and class. Not the best in any of them separately, but quite a unique combination of the three. In comparison, my Coupe and my Pagoda are faster, both in accelaration and top speed, and have better dynamic qualities on road or track. They are quite sportier.  But they do not have the air suspension that equips the W109 6.3.

Here is quite an heroic Pagoda 6.3 conversion including the air suspension, with flawless execution:

http://www.auto-kromm.de/pagode/album/index.html







This car is fully in the spirit of a 6.3, thanks to the air suspension. However, I would be curious to see what are its dynamic qualities: the car is much shorter than a W109 chassis with a lot of weight in the front with such a heavy engine. The car may feel quite nose heavy though they are ways to address this by carefully sizing front and rear sway bars.

At some point a small series of this Pagoda 6.3 was to be made by Kromm and distributed in the US by Passarelli, but I don't see any reference made of it on Passarelli's website anymore. I wonder what the price would have been.

[GGR]

Here is another Pagoda 6.3 build: http://www.vechta-motors.de/?/98-0-Power-Pagode-68.htm

Their idea is to do a Pagoda version of the "red sow":



The engine has been bored to 6.8L and there seem to be quite some serious work being done to it. Expected power is over 400hp.

Quite interesting are the solid front sub-frame mounts. Their extension means the front axle is going to sit much lower. This also means they will have to lower the steering box by quite a lot, or go to a different system.

They also give some interesting details on the Waxenberger Pagoda:



- 250 hp 6.3-liter M100 V8 engine;
- strengthened chassis rails and cross-members;
- different steering system;
- stiffer shocks;
- Dunlop racing tires; 
- 3.23 rear axle ratio; and
- 5 degree negative camber at the rear wheels.

Test drives were carried out on the Nordschleife of the Nürburgring in July 1967. The 10:30 lap time was considered disappointing, with a fuel consumption of about 6.7 mpg 

On open road however, fuel consumption was an "improved" 10.7 mpg. From what I read elsewhere, the Waxenberger Pagoda was not equipped with the air suspension.

[GGR]

Update: Today I checked the K-Jet injection system fuel pressures. I had never done it since I built the car, and it was on my to do list since then. It all looks good:

System pressure at idle: 5 bar;
Control pressure at idle with cold engine: 1.5 bar;
Control pressure at idle whith warm engine: 3.5 bar;
Full load enrichment at idle  (vacuum hose pulled off): 2.8 bar.

All these measurements are within spec of the 450SLC 5.0 injection system which equips my car, but the system pressure at idle which would need to be 5.2 bar minimum according the w/shop manual. I'm not overly concerned as everywhere else 5 bar is the standard value given for the Bosch K-jet system pressure. It can be adjusted by removing/adding washers to the pressure regulator, but I'm not sure I'm going to bother with it. The reason is that the MB K-jet systems are known to get leaner than they should at full throttle and high rpm. So if one has the correct value at idle, the engine may be too lean at high rpm and full throttle. If adjusted right in the latter conditions, then the mixture is too rich at idle and lower rpm. On my car however, I noticed the contrary. With a correct mixture value at idle, the mixture ends up a bit richer than it should at high rpm and full throttle. Which is good for power. This may be due to the slightly lower system pressure than spec. So I may well keep it where it is for now.

I then went for a drive on secondary roads in the countryside around where I live. I hadn't driven the car in a while, and I took it just after driving my wife's 230 Fintail. The car is insane. It is very behaved as long as I want it to be so. And then there is this endless push as soon as I floor it. In just a few seconds, the vegetation by the side of the road becomes all blurred. Quite exhilarating!

[Shvegel]

What you might be seeing is the W113 is quite a bit lighter than the W107 so the engine isn't working as hard at full throttle so the fuel curve of the engine is a little over rich.  I wouldn't worry too much about system pressure since the warm up regulator is keeping you well below that anyway.  My rules of thumb for CIS is if it warms up OK the cold pressure is good and rich is better than lean.  Unless you find a really good CIS guy and a dyno I would let it go. If you really want to tinker you could tune a non vacuum warm up regulator to your car(Lighter load= less need for vacuum enrichment) but If it isn't dumping fuel into the oil I would let it go.  Who am I kidding.  I would try a non vacuum warm up regulator.

[GGR]

Thanks. The car starts instantly when cold and warms up fine. I dynoed the car a while back and AFR was fine whatever the conditions. So I'm going to leave it as is. As my father says, sometimes, better is the enemy of good: by trying to improve things that do not need to be, one may end up with a result which is worse than the initial situation.

[stickandrudderman]

better is the enemy of good

That's great, I'm going to use it!

[GGR]

Happy New Year to all!

This period of the year is the anniversary of the purchase of my Pagoda. I usually take it for a spin on the first of January to remember that day when a winning bid made me the happy owner of a Pagoda after having looked for the right one for quite a while. This year though, I couldn’t drive it on the first of January as I spent Christmas and New Year’s Eve in Europe with family and friends.

This was not without some car action though, as I had the pleasure to drive the very nice BMW 3.0 CSI I co-own with a friend. I also had the occasion to drive his very nice Porsche 964.

I hadn’t driven the CSI in several years. This time, I was able to sort out an issue the car has had for a while. Someone must have tried to adjust the idle by using the throttle body stop screw. The result was that the Throttle Position Sensor was not contacting at idle and the car was idling like crap. Also the ECU kept-on supplying fuel on coasting, with a result of strong unburned gas smell each time this happened. All this is now sorted and the car runs as smoothly as ever with a nice steady idle.

The CSI has long been a benchmark for me regarding cars of that era. I find it quite modern in the way it drives. EFI really has it run very nicely and smoothly compared to carbed versions. The car is well planted on the road and quite securing. It is a very homogenous car. The CSI is also the culprit for taking me away from the MB 6 cylinder engine originally found in the Pagoda. That BMW M30 engine is so addictive, its howl so mesmerizing that I couldn’t really content myself anymore with the M130 which sounds a bit like a sewing machine in comparison (but that’s just my opinion of course!).

How does the CSI compare with my Pagoda in its V8 iteration? Well, this is where I realized how much improved the Pagoda is. Before the engine transplant and suspension upgrades the Pagoda’s older design was really relegating it into an older generation of cars compared to the CSI. It was looser on the road, and its performance was really lower. Now things are reversed. The Pagoda is much quicker and feels quite tighter on the road. Both cars however can compare by their balance and homogeneity. But the Pagoda is in another league now.

I had never driven a rear engine Porsche before. The 3.6 L is really a fantastic motor. It is very smooth, and pulls without any hesitation up to the red line. It can be described as some sort of rubber band effect. The car is extremely tight on the road, and clutch, steering, suspension and shifting are very firm, not to say harsh. I find it to be quite contrasting with the engine smoothness, to the point I feel the car not to be that homogenous in terms of driving pleasure. The other strange thing is that one is driving very close to the front wheels, and the feeling at each change of direction is a bit the same as the one felt in a van (on steroids though, and closer to the ground). Of course, Porsches are very peculiar cars, and I’m sure with a bit of adaptation time one must find it an exhilarating car.

How does the 964 compare with my Pagoda? I think the Pagoda has a bit more power, and quite a lot more torque earlier in the rpm range. Where the Pagoda jumps ahead from 2000 rpm, one would have to downshift with the Porsche to keep up. The Porsche, however, pulls effortlessly a bit higher in the rpm range. The Porsche also feels a bit harsher on the road, and I find my Pagoda can be driven with less effort. I must admit I don’t understand why the clutch is that harsh on the Porsche as it is obviously not needed: my Pagoda has quite a higher amount of torque and the clutch is much softer without slipping for that. How would both cars compare on a track? I think the Porsche would be ahead on the twisty bits, but the Pagoda would have the advantage on the faster bits. As a reference, the Pagoda could keep up with a 996 on the NCCAR track, as reported here:

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15521.msg147912#msg147912

In the end, I think driving skills would make the difference and I’m not sure I would have the advantage over my friend who is an excellent driver and a very fast one when he goes at it.

Below are some pictures of both the BMW and the Porsche taken after a cold night.     

[GGR]

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/how-to-complete-a-trip-in-old-lamborghinis-in-under-five-disasters-column

This is why I chose a Mercedes to build my car and used Mercedes parts. I went from DC to Yellowstone and back without having to turn a wrench! Nice story though, and I like the Lambo 400GT!

[stickandrudderman]

Nice. I guess the Porsche is one of the few cars that shares the similar driver requirements of a pagoda when driven hard;
NEVER LIFT OFF MID-BEND!
I was on a track day once in a 124 coupe that I had fitted race tyres to. Some guy in his Porsche up ahead couldn't understand why I kept catching up with him in the turns and I could tell that he was beginning to over-drive in a bid to shake me off. I said to my passenger, "that guy is going to spin as we exit Bridge" (we were on the Hangar straight and Bridge was a turn at the old Silverstone layout several corners further around the circuit).
Sure enough; he entered Bridge carrying way too much speed for his ability, scared himself and backed off mid-corner. We did laugh!

[GGR]

124s have a very nice chassis. Some graft 124 or 201 rear end onto w111s. I would be interested in driving one!

[Peter van Es]

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/how-to-complete-a-trip-in-old-lamborghinis-in-under-five-disasters-column

Your Lambo story reminded me of our European Event convoy of 2014 from the Netherlands to Goodwood in the UK, through Belgium, France and the UK. We gathered (with Brian in a corporate Renault, but ok) with 4 Pagoda's in the south of the Netherlands. Martijn, who in the first European Event trailered his car in to the event (and was laughed at) had one of the nicest cars of us all, but had also grown to rely upon his Pagoda. Mine looks like crap, but drives -- let's say -- pretty well, and then Rick's, who fixes it himself and likes a good time in the workshop… and Pablo, who joined us in Belgium.

As we started reaching the south of Belgium, more and more Goodwood aficionado's were seen… a British car club (MG's, Triumphs and Rovers, slow as molasses), French car clubs, Alfisti, and some really esoteric stuff (Ockelbo's, anyone ?). We Pagodista's were driving at a steady clip of 130-140 km/h where speed limits allowed, open top, not missing a beat.

We did not have accidents. We had no problems. All our cars ran like a dream. We missed no beats. And at no point were we overtaken by anything that was built before 2004, unless it was one of our convoy.

And after the Chunnel, in the UK… same story again. Pagoda's when well maintained can keep up with modern traffic easily, outrun most older esoterics (in the long run, where long is defined as any distance over 1 hour) because of the combination of performance and creature comforts and reliability.

Great story about the Lamborghini's though…

Peter

[66andBlue]

GGR,
while you are working on the rotary engine installation you might also think about adding this long forgotten front axle/steering modification!
You might be the one who can pull this of! 
https://www.youtube.com/embed/QilY00dCof8

[GGR]

For the sake of clarity my rotary project is to go into a Citroen DS (not the Pagoda!), the idea being to fit a crazy engine into a crazy car. I've also looked into fitting a CVT to make the picture complete, so as to get something as close to a flying carpet as possible. This may come later. As per these front wheels steering 90 degrees, I'm not sure! I would rather look into an all wheel drive system. Subaru has come up with a CVT all wheel drive transaxle system which may fit the bill.   

[GGR]

A nicely executed 3.5L automatic Pagoda here: http://www.ecarlist.com/showroom/1208/photos/1715581#00









It seems to have sold for $225.000 on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Mercedes-Benz-200-Series-/171728808888?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=P%252Bwn9pMrbc0fWXgvnaIlfOITmHc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Similar price I heared the Hatch & Sons red 3.5L automatic Pagoda sold for a few years back: http://www.hatchandsons.com/pages/280sl/280slgt/

[GGR]

My dear childhood friend with whom I share the ownership of a BMW 3.0 CSI (see a couple of posts above) visited us in July with his family. We did many things, and various visiting tours around DC gave him the opportunity to drive the Pagoda long enough to be comfortable with it. My friend being a true car enthusiast and an excellent and fast driver, I asked him to give me an honest opinion about the Pagoda, and how it could possibly be improved.

Well, I think he simply fell in love with the car. On the performance side, he confirmed the car was way faster than his Porsche 964. He felt the car was more powerful, and particularly much more torquey. He confirmed my conclusion that the 964 may be ahead on the twisty bits of a track due to its more modern chassis and its all wheel drive configuration, but would loose the advantage on the faster bits. He also praised how fully developed the car felt: easy to drive, well balanced, etc. He couldn't really think of any area that could be improved. That made me quite happy.

We also took the occasion to wash the car and attend Katie's Cars and Coffee on a Sunday Morning in Great Falls. Below are a few pictures we took after washing the car.

Not having done much on the car in a while, I now would like to fit it with a 105L gas tank to improve its range, in line with the GT spirit the car was developed in. For this, I need to graft the top part of a 82L Pagoda tank on the bottom part of a W109 6.3 gas tank. I already have the 6.3 tank, and I am now looking for a discarded 82L Pagoda tank. I posted an add here:  http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24765.0

So if you know of such a tank, please let me know.

[GGR]

At the occasion of a two-week training in Brussels I visited family and friends in France over the week ends. On the cars side I could start my nice ’73 DS Pallas and drive it a bit. Driving a DS regularly and having its green blood circulating into all of its organs is the best treatment one can give to such a Godess. I could also go-on fine tuning the BMW 3.0 CSI which is always a pleasure to drive. The melody of its engine passed 3000 rpm is absolutely glorious!

I drove again my friend’s Porsche 964 and again, I was impressed by how nice an engine this car has. After getting used to the offset pedals and the very hard clutch, I also started enjoying the car’s rigidity and preciseness on the twisty roads among the vineyards around Beziers.

The funny thing though is that my friend now wants to upgrade to a Porsche 996 turbo or a BMW Z3M Coupe. The reason? Since he drove my Pagoda he can’t live with the idea that his Porsche 964 is slower. I had forgotten how competitive he is and this took me 35 years back when we were kids. He always wanted his moped to be the fastest. His problem was that I was the one souping it up for him and I was always one or two steps ahead with mine. Not that I absolutely wanted to be faster than him. Simply, I was testing on my own machines performance upgrades I was coming up with, before applying them to the machines of my friends. So here we are again, 35 years later, as grown up men, with the same logic at play! In some ways it’s nice, we’re not aging. I’m surely not going to discourage him as this will give me the opportunity to drive a 996 turbo or a Z3M which in either case should be a blast! I just wonder what my friend will come up with once my next project is on the road:

[Peter van Es]

I would have liked to have driven your Pagoda on the passes around Meran on the European Event 2016... 

[GGR]

I saw the pictures, what a wonderful time you must have had! And I would certainly have been interested in getting your feedback about my Pagoda on these roads, given your experience in rallying these cars!

I think the Alps is one of the best places to enjoy a convertible as otherwise the roof takes away a big part of the fantastic scenery. I will hopefully be enjoying my Pagoda there one day. I once drove the route Napoleon in my W109 6.3. Performance was close to a sports car but with all the luxury and comfort! I didn't take pictures, but Harry Metcalfe did it in a Lamborghini Espada and he made a great video of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl6UYDLW1WU

Below are two pictures of the CSI in the Alps, taken about 15 years ago at the occasion of holidays in the area:

[GGR]

This morning the weather was fantastic so I took the Pagoda out to Katie's Cars and Coffee in Falls Church. The car was such a pleasure to drive early morning with no traffic, amidst beautiful yellow and red leaves along twisty roads going across wooded areas.

By the time I reached there I parked the car, lifted the hood and I was talking with Denny, also member of this group, when a young guy who had been looking at the car with insistence came to ask some questions. the guy must be in his twenties, and I was surprised how much he knew about all these older Mercedes parts, as he was able to identify quite precisely the ignition and injection systems I had, their model provenance etc. It turned out he is working at the local MB dealer, but still, I was pleasantly surprised by how much he knew about all the parts I used on my car. All of them belong to models before he was born! And I doubt much of his colleagues of the same age know a fraction of what he knows regarding these older models. The guy is clearly an MB enthusiast and we spent quite some time discussing the technical aspects of my conversion. It was such a pleasure talking to him because he knew what he was talking about.

I took him for a drive, and he really liked the car. Basically he was flabbergasted such a project could be done using only MB parts with so little specific adaptation. On my side, I was happy to see so much passion and knowledge in such a young person. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a reference in the vintage MB community in a few years from now. 

[Cees Klumper]

That is good to hear, because many of us have to rely on the knowledge of real mechanics, so it's important that all the knowledge is preserved. I was reminded of that also yesterday, as I came across the 8 or so video tapes Joe and I shot when he and I rebuilt my engine back in 2003. When I retire, converting those tapes to an instruction manual/chapter for the etch manual on how to rebuild the engine will be one of my many projects. Plus I may end up doing a full-on 'rotisserie' restoration on my own Pagoda at that time, if I haven't sold the car at that point yet.

[stickandrudderman]

tell him to move to London and come and work for me!

[GGR]

I didn't report it by then but the following Saturday at Katie's Cars and Coffee I ended up in a similar situation. A middle aged gentleman was taking a lot of interest at my car and ended up asking me many questions. It turns out that he too, was an MB tech in his younger years so he knew what he was talking about. We kept on talking as he is currently working at integrating a "Vintage Air" system into his Lamborghini Espada, which is something I am considering for my Pagoda. He later sent me an email with pictures and some details on his install. Not an easy job, and a lot of thought went into the set up. But in any case, this is how his email started:

"Firstly, thank you SO MUCH for your kind tour and ride in your highly desirable and well-engineered MB this weekend at C&C.  What a marvelous vehicle and the riding experience ... not like ANY other SL I've every had.  Congratulations on the result ... I'm still amazed at the inconspicuous  (invisible?) integration of different parts so carefully done that they defy detection, at least by me.  Well done!"

and he concluded:

"Again, MUCH THANKS for showing me your fantastic MB.  Best of luck on your M120-engined project and I hope to see you back at C&C sometime soon!"

I forgot to mention Rob is also the owner of an MB600 v12 so we also discussed my current project of adapting a manual transmission onto an M120 engine that may end up into my W111 Coupe. Thanks for the kind words Rob, it definitely gives me courage for this v12 project!

[GGR]

I hadn't driven the Pagoda for about 3 months when I noted a leak under the rear right wheel which revealed to be brake fluid. It turns out the caliper was leaking so I replaced both rear calipers (the only mechanical parts that I hadn't replaced/rebuilt since I bought the car) with new pads and rotors. I also had to repaint the inside of the wheel as the paint had been damaged by the leaking fluid. There was no other damage to the paint anywhere else, thankfully.

The problem of the leak got solved obviously, but it also cured a vibration noise that had developed each time I was turning left. I knew it was brake related as the vibration disappeared as soon as I touched the brake pedal. I still don't understand fully how this vibration could appear each time i was turning left, but the issue is now sorted anyway. If someones knows what could cause such a vibration please let me know, as the same issue developed on my W111 Coupe and it would be good if I could sort it out without replacing the calipers which still seem to be working as they should.   

[GGR]

I took the Pagoda for a spin the other day and again, experienced the great pleasure of its excellent balance and feel of endless torque and easy power. This car is an absolute medecine against any kind of problems as no matter what, I'm coming out of it with a smile stuck on my face for the rest of the day !

I also sorted the vibration on my Coupe's rear axle. After my experience with the Pagoda, I replaced the rear left caliper and problem is now gone. Strange that the same problem has developped in the same way on both cars at the same time !

I also worked on my V12 project which consisted of stripping the V12 up to the short block and check every thing. I'm glad I took the heads off as despite its very low mileage, the engine has sat for a long time and coolant turned acid had started damaging the head gaskets and the heads also needed a very slight resurfacing due to the same reason. I have also checked valve guides and seals and they turned to be in very good shape. The engine is now back together, with its flywheel, clutch and manual transmission mated. I'm still to work on the oil cooler and air pump delete and on the engine wiring which has self bio-degraded as is the case on many of these cars.

I will then need to decide on which car to fit this V12 and manual transmission. My first plan was to fit it on my W111 Coupe, but I must admit that the concept of a V12 Pagoda is more and more making its way in my mind...