FYI--ZF 5 speed trans.

[George Des]

Thanks, guys. Unfortunately the quality of my card is so bad I can not read anything in that area. Garry, the 230SL data card is formatted somewhat differently but I can vaguely make out the same heading on mine. Can't believe that as festidious as MB is that they don't maintain better quality images of these things. Understand these records are over 40 years old but I've seen other such records much older and in much better shape than these.

George

[Garry]

George,

 in the Tech Manual under Data Card and Codes it goes into fine detail for each of the differing Data Cards that were supplied over the life of the W113.  You will need to search around the various code headings  once you have identified your card type and location of the different codes.

http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/Start

You can see such things as the options codes, paint codes, colour codes etc and you need to go into each to identify what is applicable to your Card in each of the boxes other than just the engine, gearbox, axle numbers etc.

Garry

[rocketman1]

Garry, thanks for sharing your data card!
Hans, thanks for the code #'s for the ZF-5 (ie: SA 230 and 232 axle ratio.)
I will have my data card monday or tuesday and will share it too.
FYI, I got an e-mail from one of our club members off this site.
His neighbor used to work on the assembly line during the 60's, and he alledges that there were some  pre 1966 models(albiet, very very few) pagoda's built at the factory with the ZF 5 tranmission. We'll see.
rocketman1
1964 230 SL ZF-5 268H dark green
1982 500 SL

[Benz Dr.]

My car was the same colour green when new.

 If there were a few cars built before '66 it would indicate that they were unofficial requests made from friends or workers at the factory. We can assume from this that they were tinkering with the idea long before they became an official option in the sales literature.

[Garry]

So Dan what is on your Data Card re Gearbox?

Garry

[rocketman1]

Garry & Dan, If it's not too much trouble, what are the MB 10 digit numbers on your ZF 5 case's.
Mine is: 1025 401 042
It would be interesting to see if MB changed there part no. over this time period.
rocketman1

[Garry]

My 5 speed is currently being manufactured by ZF. Delivery 2012
 PO must have flogged it off when it broke due to cost of repair. The one you have may well be from my car
I fitted a Getrag in the car last year as I was not able to get a ZF 5-20 in reasonable condition with known history as most have been fitted as non standard to W113's. The ratios are roughly the same as the ZF

Most that have come up in the last four or five years have been unknown condition with a quote for overhaul starting at the price of the gearbox plus parts if you can find the parts. I was not prepared to go there at this point and decide to wait for a new one from ZF.
Garry

[Benz Dr.]

So Dan what is on your Data Card re Gearbox?

Garry

I never bothered to get one. I know the car is an original 5 speed. I've owned the car 19 years so I would have seen evidence of modifications long ago but there are none.

[George Des]

As I mentioned in the post above, my data card is all but unreadable. What I can see on the card is a getriebe number and it is 613853. I purchased my car over 35 years ago and I know I'm the second owner. The first was an Italian doctor. Based on the numbers I'm reading on this very difficult to read card, I'm now beginning to wonder if he had by chance had the ZF box fitted in Italy once he took delivery of it or perhaps the card is just wrong with the exchange taking place at the factory while it was being prepared for final delivery. I can't find anything else on this card that looks like it was assembled for an Italian delivery, yet everything else on it says so--tailights, sidemarkers, decals, the Italian delivery/registration documentation I got with the car and the ZF 5 speed--all really strange!

George

[Garry]

Dan, I am intrigued, what evidence would be there to show that it was not a four speed given that they are pretty much a bolt in with a shorter tail shaft?

George, scan in your data card and post it. It should have the country code 543 if it was italy.  Maybe it was bought in Germany and then driven back to Italy.

As I have said before, there are lots of UZS cars that look Euro with 5 speed that started life as something very different.

Garry

[Benz Dr.]

Oh, well that's an easy answer. The drive shaft isn't modified, all the shift linkage is the correct stuff and it came with a 4.08 drum brake axle.

As I said earlier, no one back then would have bothered to find all of this stuff and change it over. The chances of that are unlikely. If they only found the trans there would be evidence of shifter mods and there are none.
 Not that it matters as much but the car is an Italian import, most which were original 5 speeds. I suppose I could get the dara card but I'm more than sure it's original.

If you spend all day looking at this stuff you will see what's right and what isn't. If someone changed all of this stuff over 20+ years ago, they went to a lot of bother to find all of the correct pieces and that's not how most people do things. They find the main piece to make it all work and then figure out everything after that point.   

[George Des]

Dan,

I agree. I'm not sure the original owner of mine who was a physician with a bunch of young kids would have gone through all the trouble to make the change over to the ZF considering it would have required the modified driveshaft, linkage, etc.  My guess is that this is how the car came from the factory i.e. with the ZF 5 speed installed. I'm just puzzled with the issue of the data card which unfortunately doesn't have enough readability to provide much of a clue. Garry, I'll try attaching a copy of the data card to an email--it is so vague it would never scan so you could read any of it.

George

[George Des]

Garry,

This is my data card. Like I said, very difficult to make out certain areas that may provide the answers.

George

[rocketman1]

Question, I'm getting ready to swap out my flex disc's and carrier bearing. This ZF-5 trans. has NEVER been serviced. I owned the car from 1976 to 1982 and the transmission worked fine. Then the Car was stored in a barn (never driven) for 29 yrs. here in Texas before I got it back 2 month's ago. Don't ask, Long story!!!
Who & where would you send this transmission to be taken apart and serviced, if thats possible?
There's only one company listed in our club directory.
Dan do you or anyone else have any suggestions?
Thanks
rocketman1
PS: I called and I"ll have my data card tomorrow. 

[Benz Dr.]

I had mine apart about 15 years ago. The input shaft bearing was making a lot of noise so I had no choice but to take it apart.
A four speed box is very simple by comparison. With the availability of new parts again I'm going to take mine apart again this winter and go back through it. Everything works but 3rd gear will grind if shifted a bit too quickly during up or down shifts. I don't think I have too much end play but I'll check for that.
I was able to get a repair manual for the trans although it's a translation from German and none of the pictures came out cleary. There was enough specs and information to figure out all of the end play tollerances and assembly proceedures.

I've considered rebuilding them using my own car as a mule for testing. I would want to investigate what parts are going to be available and their costs before I'd make any decisions.

Most of the parts you would replace during a rebuild would be bearings, seals and probably syncro rings. Bearings are not like the ones used in the four speed box and are timken or typer roller. Setting proper end play is critical on these bearings.
The syncros are all steel except reverse gear - yes, reverse has a syncro on it! When the gear box is cold you must shift slowly until the box warms up. It's takes a bit of force to shift in cold weather. Normal summer temps shouldn't cause any real shifting problems.

The shift gate has a fairly strong spring on it. I remember not getting it engaged properly after I had mine apart which caused a bit of panic until I figured out that the ends of the spring had to sit on both sides of a rail under the top cover.
This spring makes shifting feel rather different than a 4 speed box and requires a bit of a push sideways to put it into first gear. 1st gear is much further towards the left than a four speed box and right up against your knee ( or, at least my knee ) and second is almost as bad as 1st. 3rd and 4th are more or less where you would find 1st and 2nd in a four speed box while 5th is to the far right and up. This puts the shifter about as far away from my knee as it can go. When your 6'3'' 260 lbs, you need all the room you can get.

Reverse is below 5th and can be engaged while the car is still gently rolling but I would advise against it. The syncro will work but why chance it.

[George Des]

Dan,

You probably have the same tech manual I have. I got it through a Maserati site, but it covers both the Maserati version and the MB version of the S5-20. I'm curious about the noise yours was making prior to going into it. I've noticed when I first start out, there is an annoying "pinwheeling" sort of noise that appears to come from the right side of the transmission tunnel. Using synthetic auto transmission fluid. This goes away after a short while--maybe the first few hundred yards or so. No resistance to running through any of the gears and no grinding at all. What I do notice is that once the car is up to speed if I suddenly let up on the accelerator, I have what sounds like a loud rush or whine coming from the same right side. As soon as I go back to the accelerator this sounds goes away. So, it sounds like as long as the drive train is under load there is no noise. I thought perhaps this could be the exhaust pipes on the heat shield or maybe the flex disk and driveshaft being out of line.
This box was rebuilt back in Germany by ZF around 1982 and does not have that much mileage on it since the rebuild--maybe 10,000 or so, but did lay up for maybe 8-9 years while the rest of the car was being restored.

George 

[Benz Dr.]

I would look at every other possibilty before loooking at the trans. Sounds like it could be problems with too much end play if it is the gear box. It doesn't sound like it's bad enough to warrant pulling the box out for a rebuild.
I would keep an eye on it and see if the noise changes or gets louder.

[Erik]

Hello guys,

According to the MB Classic Wiki the 5-speed manual transmission ZF S 5-20 was available from September 1965 onwards.
ZF recently decided to produce a few hundred brand new of these boxes -all to the original specifications- but they cost an arm and a leg.
A cheaper alternative could be to look for a late 70-ies Opel Kadett, Manta or Ascona. The more sportier versions of these cars were fitted with the ZF 5-speed. It would take some puzzling though to have it fitted to an Pagode.

Greetings,
Erik

[rocketman1]

Greetings, well I got my data card today. Interesting info. I'll scan mine tomorrow and share.
The car was built and shipped to a MB dealer in Munchen, Germany Nov. of 64
My eng. block # match's vin # on the card
and NOPE, no code for the ZF-5 trans. in the respective area on the data card.
Body color/hardtop/leather match also.
My ZF-5 had to of been installed sometime while it was in Germany, because it showed up 12 yrs. later in Texas  (1976) and that's when I bought it with that Transmission on the car.
Garry's was built with the factory installed ZF-5 and was shipped to Great Britian from the factory.
George yours was sent to Italy (543), but there's no ZF-5 listed on your card, but you have one.
Dan it will only take a second to send your title by fax, and you'll know for sure if the ZF-5 was factory installed & if the car was shipped to Italy.
That's it for me tonight
Regards
rocketman1
1964 230 SL ZF-5 268H Dark Green, 216 Cognac Leather
1982 500 SL

[JamesL]

Be funny if the ZF box in your car was the one that Garry's car originally had

[Garry]

My car was delivered in Bristol UK and I believe that the transmission was changed over there before the car was taken to New Zealand then to Australia.

Must be something about Green cars
Garry

[George Des]

I'm trying to get a clearer version of my data card if one exists. I've played around with the one Tom Hanson sent me by blowing it up--as large as 1000X, changing the colors, viewing from different angles/distances, etc. It has helped highlight a few codes that were not evident on first look. In the position where the ZF codes would be found, I've been able to pick out the 720 that indicates the color of the soft top. There are also some very, very faint indications that there are additional codes in the "wenig gewunscht" block--this is like a "hanging chad" search!. Some 2's and perhaps some 3's, so my guess is that the ZF did come with the car from the factory. Just wish they had a better quality copy from the factory to be absolutely sure!

George

[Garry]

George,

Does the card appear have two areas in the option code area filled, i.e one for the axle 230 and one for the gear box 232.

Put a copy on the forum for us to see.

Garry

[George Des]

Garry,

 See my post above. I attached a copy. Maybe someone who can manipulate the pixels better than I can will be able to read those areas. I've tried and can see something maybe there but who knows.

George

[66andBlue]

Hi Goerge,
I tried some image enhancing programs and came up with the attached typed in info (in bold).
Aside from the 720 there are only "---" 3-times in "wenig gewünscht", clearly there are no "230" or "232' option codes listed.