FYI--ZF 5 speed trans.

[mbzse]

.../...Aside from the 720 there are only "---" 3-times in "wenig gewünscht", clearly there are no "230" or "232' option codes listed.  

Nice work on the enhancement Alfred! To add to your conclusion, is the gear box serial No "Getriebe". This is far to high to be a ZF 5-speed box.
/Hans in Sweden

.

[rocketman1]

Yea George, that's what I was able to pick out, three lines in a row next to 720 were blank. the 720 is soft top black.
Bummer, however like mine, you still have one! Where did these ZF-5's come from. Did they have an O'Reileys store in Germany back then selling these things?
That's a joke of course.
rocketman1

[Garry]

To have the ZF code you will always have the 4.08 Axle code as well in the options area I believe.

And where did they come from,  from cars like mine where the PO did not have enough cash to splash or sold it off not liking it or to make money, not understanding the importance of originality.

As stated in another posting thread comment from Motoring Investments that originality adds value.  Add a 5 speed without the data card to back it up adds only the value of the 5 speed less the cost of replacing it with the original transmission.Maybe some will like it and pay for the 5 speed alone. Bit like the paint colour, change it to suite your taste but be aware that not everyone will share your taste and the value may repeat may be affected.

Garry

[rocketman1]

Garry here's my data card,
rocketman1

[George Des]

This is all very curious and I'm beginning to wonder if some of these ZF equipped 230's weren't actually done at the destination MB dealership at the request of the original owner/customer. Would be interesting to find out from either ZF or MB if some of these boxes were shipped to the MB dealers expressly for them to install or perhaps even as spares. I know Italy provided a big customer base for 5 speed equipped cars and this may have been one way the Italian MB dealerships drew in customers. Like Dan, I'm convinced mine is as it was originally delivered to the first owner regardless of what the card says. Maybe our German and Italian members might be able to shed some light.

George

[Garry]

Thanks Rocketman1

I can understand your disappointment not having the 5 speed option code.  I had my car for a year before I heard about getting the data card on this forum and found out that it should have had a 5 speed. It did make me rush to the car to see if there was another gear that I had never used but alas, disappointment also and 5 years of searching for a good one with out any luck.

Would have loved to have also had the option 600

Sorry George and Dan, no data card no cigar.

Garry

[George Des]

Garry,

No big deal. The car runs the same with or without the annotation on the card. I changed over my interior from the original green (124)--a color I never really liked to the dark blue available on later cars. I've also added an A/C system, changed out the original radio, stripped off the original Glasurit paint and refinished in PPG Acrylic Urethane and a host of other little things, so it is far from original as it stands. Would have been nice but "Oh Well" .
On another note, great job on those firewall pads. These will be great and welcome additions to all our cars. I will also be anxious to hear how the new ZFs work out when they get delivered. I'm hoping ZF makes some of the aluminum castings available so I can finally fix the rear speedometer cover on mine properly.

Best,

George

[Garry]

George,

On the letter I got from ZF to confirm my order they did indicate that they will also be producing spares but would not indicate how or what they will produce and distribute.

A person I know spent up near $7000 Aust on getting several new gears made a couple of years ago. Puts the ZF asking price of Euro 7800 in perspective.  We are lucky now that the AU dollar has increased better than 40% against the Euro and USD in the last year or so.

Garry

[rocketman1]

Great info guys. Brings up several questions.
Erik, you mentioned a new ZF-5 will cost an "arm & leg". If you or someone else knows, what will they sell for?
George, a couple for you. Where can I get a ZF-5 Tech manual that you found. You also mentioned that a person would have to modify the driveshaft,linkage etc. to install a ZF-5.    Dan is that correct?
In otherwords, if a pagoda came with a 4 speed from the factory, could the tranmission housing be unbolted and the ZF-5 tranmission housing be bolted into it's place without any modifications?
And, (sorry this subject is very interesting) George I think you hit on something, if you look at the Dealer and Country code records and cross it with the production  stats. & exports, a couple facts pop up.
Over 50 % of the 1963-64-65 230 SL's were shipped to German MB dealerships. Allmost all the 250 SL's were shipped out of Germany
and aprox. 75% of the 280 SL's were shipped out of Germany, with most of those shipped to the US with the auto trans.
If I lived in Germany in 1966 and had one of these cool (pre 1966) 230 SL's in my garage with the 4 speed, and found out that a 5 speed  now was available, I would be first in line at the dealership to swap it out with a "factory built ZF-5 transmission". This would possibly explain why the car has one, but the data card shows something different.
Food for thought
Good Evening
rocketman1

[DaveB]

New ZF S5-20 cost is €7800 As per Garry's info above.
Not sure where you can buy the manual but I can scan and send it. Some of the pictures are too dark to make out.
swapping from the standard to the ZF requires a different front tailshaft section, shifter linkages, gear knob and possibly a different transmission mount.
Are you sure your transmission is the ZF? (the attached photo shows what it should look like).

[Garry]

A couple of more photos for comparison

[George Des]

Rocketman1,

Check out this site for the S5-20 service manual. It goes into great detail on disassembly/assembley and all the part specs. A really good source to have around at $55.00.

http://www.maseratinet.com//p-15091-zf-s5-20-service-manual.aspx

Dave--no doubt on my ZF--I have had it out and had it rebuilt by ZF many years ago in Mannheim, Germany--it is the ZF S5-20 Model. I need to get under the car to check on ther serial number.

George

[George Des]

The bellhousing is different although I do not think there is any difference in the way it bolts up to the engine. On the standard MB tranmission, the bellhousing is designed to mate to the transmission housing with a set of shims that are used to set the end play on the transmission mainshaft. The main bearings being ball bearings. The S5-20 mainshaft is set in Timken roller bearings. These are very common Timken bearings found on a lot of boat trailer wheels believe it or not. The linkage rod and tubes are different lengths between the two transmissions--can't remember which one uses the longer set, but pretty obvious when you look at them--I have a set up for a 4 speed in the garage so I've actually eyed the two sets. I've been told that the driveshaft set up with the S5-20 has a different lenght front section and have also heard that the front section from an auto transmission can be substituted for one or the other to make up the difference in the length. Dan would have some better perspective on this.

George

[Benz Dr.]

That's a ZF 5 speed in the pictures - no doubt about that.

  All parts on the trans are ZF - nothing fom MB fits except the flex disc. The shifter rod isn't very long at maybe 12 inches and the stabilizer rods are also shorter. These parts could be easily modified. The front section of the drive shaft is shorter than on a four speed box but I don't know by how much. The next time I have my car on the hoist I will measure it and see.

[rocketman1]

Thanks Guys, Great stuff.
Dave, whats the MB no. on top of the transmission. I can make out 1025 4-- ---,the rest is blurry.
Mine is 1025 401 042
There's also that metal tag on the side,  can you read any of those numbers?
Garry, can you share your numbers too please.
George thanks for the web site for the book!
Stupid question. Did the ZF company make the 4 speed transmissions for our cars???
Regards
rocketman1

[George Des]

The number your reading is on the casting and looks like a ZF casting number. It is the same on mine. The serial number is on the metal data plate further up on the left hand side. Tried to read mine by crawling under but I'll need to wait until I get it up on a lift--too hard to do crawling in there on a creeper!

George

[Erik]

Hello Rocketman1

In attachment you find the flyer announcing production of the (new) ZF box;
This arm&leg woult cost you 6850 euro, VAT (and export/import taxes) not included.
greetings,

Erik

[DaveB]

The top casting number on the trans in my photo is 1025 406 132. I'm not sure on the significance of these different numbers. There are some details on the numbers in Michael Egan's 2005 Pagoda World article but they don't seem to match the top plate number, maybe ithey relate to the side plate number (I don't have a photo of the plate). The 4-speed is model 'G72' but I don't know the manufacturer.

[Erik]

Hello Rocketman1

Mercedes has a reputation for making its own transmissions.
The 4-speeds and automatics are Mercedes design/production.

The 5-speed offered as an option on the Pagodes was an exception, as it was produced by ZF  (www.zf.com)
The 5-speed fitted to some BMW's (and Opels) in the 70ies and wich is often installed in Pagodes is a Getrag product.

greetings,
Erik

[Garry]

As I had said earlier, mine has been lost but here are some photos from other Gear boxes I looked at showing where there are part numbers either stamped on the ID Plate Dave refereed to or on the castings for the box. And these are the ones I didnt buy. I ended up using a Getrag box out of an early BMW M3 with Mark Bulls adaptor plate Kit.
Eric, I have my name down for one of the ZF new production.  I had forgotten how much they were.  That is even cheaper !!! than I remembered.  It is probably cheaper than buying a second hand one and having it overhauled.   With the Aussie dollar that is

[DaveB]

Thanks Erik,

A bit of a slight to Mercedes my not knowing that! Oh well, now I do.

Garry those rear casting numbers will apparently indicate whether the transmission was from a 230/250 or 280 (or 300). I think the 054 was for 280sl. I will check this evening.

Yes, €6850 is not too bad in Australia, given that it's brand new with a warranty. The Australian govt will probably want its 10% though. I couldn't justify the expense, that's 1.5 x the purchase price of my car! Let alone trying to explain it on the home front. However in your situation it makes perfect economic sense. Clearly your wife will appreciate that.

[rocketman1]

Thanks again fellas,
DaveB, yep my trans. has the ZF casting logo on the side of the box. Thanks to Eric, who says MB made the 4 speed that clears that issue up. Also since my tranmission is still installed in the car, the casting numbers are also on the driver side, just above the ZF plate.
Again mine reads 1025 401 042. Am I "wishing" to think that the 042 ties to the model number for the 230 SL's??? The 1025 so far match's all the other ZF-5's.
DaveB, if there's not a million pages to your ZF manual, would you scan and send it when you have the time.
Thanks again George for the web site for the other manual.
Have a Great Evening, it's 8:45pm here in Texas right now.
rocketman1l

[DaveB]

Rocket
I think that '042' is coincidental. Will check on that, and search for the ZF workshop manual.

[rocketman1]

DavidB, Thanks, and it would be nice if the manual address's that numbering (042) issue somehow.
I sent an e-mail to the ZF factory last nite asking about the status of the new (retro ZFS 5-20) transmissions. I asked them,
Did they get 250 orders? If so when will they be built and ready for shipping in 2012, also at the bottom of the order form that Eric sent us, it said they would make
"Kits" available for the OEM ZF - 5's (ie:seals,bearings,clutch plates,etc.) That would be a God send! It said it takes them 3 days to respond to e-mails.
Is there anybody in our group that lives in Germany, close to this plant, were they can stop in and say, "HI, how's the ZFS 5-20 program coming along"
Best regards
rocketman1
1964 230 SL
1982 500 SL

[George Des]

Don't hold your breathe in getting a response from the ZF crowd. I've sent multiple inquires to them in the past few years on some fairly simple issues and have never gotten a response. Not sure what their problem is but that has been my experience and I'm not the only one.

George