Author Topic: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!  (Read 20327 times)

Cees Klumper

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Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« on: May 30, 2004, 17:27:25 »
check this listing; a brochure for a company that evidently manufactured replica Pagodas in Brazil in the 80-ies, with a choice of engines from Chevrolet (...). Aptly called "Phoenix" this company even had a logo that resembles the Mercedes three-pointed star:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32095&item=2480399609&rd=1

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
« Last Edit: May 30, 2004, 17:29:04 by cees klumper »
Cees Klumper
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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2004, 23:25:55 »
Amazing. I've heard of a company in Germany that will make you a new 280SL with a new engine and gear box off one of the newer mercs. The interiors aren't the same which is a disappointment and they are not cheap. Mercedes should really get their act together and remake this car. So many repros are successful - Porsche 956, AC Cobra, VW Beetle (not repro I know... but Mexican), etc, etc..

Albert-230SL

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2004, 12:43:51 »
[:0] I think the picture of this brochure is from a real Pagoda, retouched by Photoshop in the front star. It looks too perfect to be a replica... What do you think?

Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432

Cees Klumper

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2004, 16:22:03 »
I don't know Albert - anything is possible I guess, but I don't know whether in those days Photoshop etc was all that common. It's not impossible that they made cars that looked that close to the original. Anyone else heard of this 'recreation'?

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2004, 16:22:19 »
Did you notice the door mirror. I think it looks different. Can some one write this company and get more details, they might be getting parts from Mercedes or re making bumpers and grill. I would really like to know more. I have seen replica 300SL gullwing and roadsters at the car shows and you have to be on top of them to realize they are not the orginal car and that they have a twin cam 280 engine and automatic transmision.
Bob Geco

Douglas

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2004, 21:21:21 »
Clearly, this is a topic for the message board on the W 113 Phoenix SL Group's site    ;-)

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #018260

Gerhard

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2004, 04:09:59 »
According to enclosed link there seems to be a big market in brazil for replica's. Look at the bottom.

http://www.cabriosconversiveis.hpg.ig.com.br/historia_escort/escort4rodas330.htm

Anyone speak spanish/portugese/brasilian to investigate further.
My spanish stops at "uno cerveza por favor" most of the time they bring beer :)  sometimes I get slapped in the face :?

Gerhard Radstake
1965 230SL

Albert-230SL

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2004, 11:43:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by Gerhard

According to enclosed link there seems to be a big market in brazil for replica's. Look at the bottom.

http://www.cabriosconversiveis.hpg.ig.com.br/historia_escort/escort4rodas330.htm

Anyone speak spanish/portugese/brasilian to investigate further.


Hi Gerhard,

It just talks about the competitors of the Escort XR3 Cabrio in 1988 (the only cabrio made in Brasil at that time), and one of them was the Phoenix: a fiberglass replica of the 280 SL, made by "LHM - Industrias Mecánicas" (or L.H.M.), equipped with General Motors engines (alcohol or petrol), from 2500 to 4100 cc.

In another site, they say there's a Chevrolet Opala under that W113 fiberglass skin.

Regards


Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432
« Last Edit: June 08, 2004, 11:20:13 by Albert-230SL »

rwmastel

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2005, 22:21:28 »
Just to bring up the general topic of replicas, here's an interesting 190SL sytle replica:

http://www.autobild.de/suche/artikel.php?artikel_id=5604&artikel_seite=0

For a "slide show", click on 14 Bilder under the photo.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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France

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2005, 00:41:04 »
Hi Guys,

Oh, don't even start me.  If my husband finds out he can have a Pagoda body with an 8-cyl Chevy engine, we're really doomed.  We already have a stable full of giant noise-makers and regularly wake up the entire countryside.

Gerhard, try "una chela" (Mexican slang for beer) and your may really get something interesting!

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France
Trice
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Austrian Alps
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...

mdsalemi

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2005, 07:56:35 »
Gents,

This business of "replicars" is not to be taken lightly.  It might be just what the doctor ordered (well, not Dr. Benz), and it would interesting to find out if the Brazilian company still exists and if the US kit car makers have an interest.

We all love the lines and beauty of our cars, but if you go through all the posts one could surmise that collectively, we really don't like them too much.  HERESY you say?  Well, look:

Here is a generalized list of complaints we seem to have:

No overdrive transmission
Shift points all wrong on automatic
Ratios wrong on standard
Rear axle ratios allow too high RPM's
Many parts too expensive or NLA
Lack of some safety items (proper seat belts for one) for those who want a daily driver
Complex fuel injection system; expensive to repair.
Abysmal fuel economy (15-16 MPG on Premium? For an underpowered 2 seater?[:0])
Various complexities that create a service dilemma for those that don't or can't do all the work themselves.
Brake diving
Not enough power
Brakes inadequate
Too easy to rust
Only acceptable handling versus exceptional; touring performance in what many see as a sports car package
Recirc ball steering at a time when others were rack and pinion
Bus sized steering wheel
"Tricky" swing-axle rear suspension
Chassis tuning difficult; camber not adjustable without spring pads.

REPLICARS solve many of these issues.  Think you've seen an AC Cobra 427 recently?  Probably not; a real one is a rare vehicle indeed, only 306 were known to be built.  There are far more replicas of the AC Cobras (and most of them better cars and far less costly)out there then real ones--most with the engine of the owner's choice.  Wouldn't it be great if we could have something like this with a 113 body?

As for Mercedes remaking the 113, probably won't happen.  There are too many new challenges that a real auto manufacturer has to go through to certify every part.  Just look at the new Mini Cooper versus the old.  Oh yes, you can see the resemblance but it isn't the same car at all.  Replicar manufacturers don't have these challenges as it is generally a kit and they are not subject to the same rules.

Anyone ready to step up and buy a Phoenix kit car?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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Bob G ✝︎

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2005, 12:12:27 »
Some how the people who think of remarketing a new old design just do not always do it right. Instead you end up with a franinstein instead of the way the car was suppose to be. know how true to the bread of sports touring cars of the 1960s came away with steerroids and power and grace I do not think any unless you want to look at Esso or shelby but even magazine  road tests of their cars reported crude handling and poor conmfort.
In this day and age of cross over changes and badge engineering it is difficult to judge the winners and the fakes. Do you know that the price of a 427 Shelby  roadster remanufactored is all mostthe same, same with Tony Labella's 300SL gullwing . For that amount of money I choose to take the real one and live with the graces and falts of the designers in a real one off design car.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2005, 12:14:59 by Bob G »

J. Huber

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2005, 12:18:40 »
Last summer I went to a local car show -- and side-by-side were a Shelby kit car and an original car. I could not help but think one was live and the other memorex...


James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL

France

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2005, 00:44:54 »
On the positive side, though, the replicars usually have vastly improved safety features.  Take the GT 40, for instance.  In the originals the gas tanks were in the sills, making for an instant bomb on side impact.  The replicars (and maybe the new reincarnation too) have relocated the tanks...

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Austrian Alps
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...

Ben

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2005, 10:00:05 »
There was a company in Jersey making Gulwing replicas, they bought the tooling from that shop in the US that used to do them. they were very good replicas with modern 6 cylinder Merc engines and transmissions and correct interiors !

They retailed at around 80,000 pounds sterling.

The company recently went out of business !

I dont belive that a decent replica could be made much cheaper and I think the demand for a Pagoda would be less than that of a Gullwing !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

rwmastel

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2005, 12:48:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel

Just to bring up the general topic of replicas, here's an interesting 190SL sytle replica:

http://www.autobild.de/suche/artikel.php?artikel_id=5604&artikel_seite=0

For a "slide show", click on 14 Bilder under the photo.
Did anyone look at this slide show?  I think this is a great looking car!

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2005, 16:39:16 »
I looked at the slide show.  My guess is that it must be a body kit to cosmetically modify a Z3.  Nicely done, from what can be seen...

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
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- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
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  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

Ben

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2005, 02:04:22 »
Yes it does look nice and is Z3 based, pity they didn't stay completely true to the original lines, or make a 300SL version !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

JamesL

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2005, 02:22:04 »
Ben

Hooper(?) Gullwing have said they are going to continue production but in a cheaper location

NZ or SA was mentioned

Their website is still up and about (at least it was about 6 weeks back). http://givemegraphics.net/hooper/
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 02:24:38 by Tosh »
James L
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Bearcat

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2005, 04:28:21 »
how much is a hooper gullwing? i think it would be a traffic stopper...a guy living in the locality has the orig cabrio version...i nearly rear ended a car in front when i saw it....magnificent.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 04:29:06 by Bearcat »

Ben

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2005, 08:14:09 »
About stg£80,000 depending on exact spec !

I didn't realise it was the same "Hooper" that did the special Rolls Royce bodies !  That certainly adds a degree of sophistication/exclusivity/prefessionalism to the whole job !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

Mike Hughes

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2005, 13:10:27 »
By the look of the side vents aft of the front wheel wells, I'd say that they gave more than a nod to the 190SL's big brother!

quote:
Originally posted by Ben

Yes it does look nice and is Z3 based, pity they didn't stay completely true to the original lines, or make a 300SL version !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.




- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

n/a

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2006, 19:52:18 »
Could be an original.
I have a Brazilian made Porsche 356 Cabriolet replica (Envemo) that is indistinguishable from an original......

Tom Colitt

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2006, 16:21:51 »
I'm in Brasil right now and I saw one of those replicas just a week ago in Sau Paulo (I thought it was the original, but this makes more sense). Too bad I've never seen it up close when it was not driving.

Tom Colitt

andre_morcos

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Re: Replica Pagodas in Brazil - really!
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2006, 08:28:13 »
Hi RWmastel,
Just visited the site and think that whatever they did is a crime!!! They ruined a Z3 and tried to make itlook like a 190 Sl. My question is why?
The outer shell is 70% alike and the interior is a BMW. Shouldn't there be a law forbidding people of doing such damage?
Excuse my bluntness.
Regards,

Andre Morcos
1964 230Sl
1960 220 Seb