Author Topic: conversion to power steering seems easy! am i missing something ? (Read 14891 times)

Dave H · « **on:** January 30, 2012, 20:08:11 »

During the restoration of my 280sl i intend to upgrade to power steering....many threads on this forum describe this as difficult due to the increased size of the power steering box and, that you require the 40mm shorter steering shaft/column from a doner ,power steering ,280sl .
It seems easy enough to get the pump,gearbox and hoses but people say the column is the tricky bit......someone on E BAY even wants $1600 for the bits (column included)...is he on the same planet as me ??
Reading various threads on the subject this has put many people off !!! me included untill i read the haynes manual.
This states that there are only 2 columns for the W113...early and late, and that both are "designed" to be telescopic in order to accept either manual ,or the power box.
There are 2 holes on the underside of the column,where your knees go, to check the measurement it says, and indeed there are !
Am i missing something ? do i need the column from a doner vehicle after all ,or is my existing manual column designed to telescope to the correct length in order to accept both manual ,and power steering boxs ?
please advise because if both early and late columns are designed to do this then power steering conversion is easy....

Jack Jones · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2012, 20:51:27 »

I agree 100%. I am in the process of converting my 280sl and do not see the complexity. The extra pulley is only required if your car has air conditioning and the column is adjustable as Dave describes. When I started looking I offered the $1600 guy on Ebay half that amount and he could keep the column bit he is set on his price. All that is required is the PS box, pump and bracket, reservoir and hoses, belt, nuts and bolts.

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2012, 21:07:53 »

I've never tried to convert a 280SL but it doesn't work that way on a 230. Those are two different columns on that car. From what I remember, the difference is in the length of the shaft at the bottom.
One thing I know for sure is that the 280 and 230 will not interchange. I have my doubts about the 280 column being that easy to convert but once I see some proof, then I'll believe it. $:-\$

Dave H · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2012, 21:37:42 »

If you get a copy of the Haynes manual (section 32 steering and suspension)
it mentions that "all" steering shafts are "colapsable type" and the shafts can be telescoped/adjusted to provide an overall length of 28.8"to fit a manual box & 25.9" for a power steering box. this is for the earlier 230 & 250sl column with the extra u/v joint in the middle and the flexi rubber coupling at the box end...
For the later column, fitted to the 280sl with only 1 u/v coupling at the bottom ,the shaft should be telescoped to provide an overall length of 25.9"manual or 24.1" when fitting a power steering box....
It says you achieve these lengths by removing the steering wheel,splitting the u/v coupling on the steering box and withdrawing the telescopic shaft out of the top of the steering column.
Use a plastic mallet to telescope the shaft to the desired length then refit the shaft back in the column taking care not to alter the length again when pushing the bottom end into the coupling on the steering box........
on the underside of the column (where your knees go) are 2 guide holes (roughly 2" apart ) that allow you to check the length you have set.....
on the 2 piece 230sl (earlier column) the telesccopic part is in the upper shaft....not the lower.....

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2012, 22:08:32 »

Easy or difficult is entirely subjective. For some people getting out of bed in the morning is difficult, whilst for others flying upside down across the English channel is just for kicks.
Every 280 that I have ever worked on, and that's a lot, already had PAS fitted.
Every 230 that I've fitted PAS to, and that's maybe 20 or so, has had to have the steering column modified and that modification will not feature in any Haynes manual.

Dave H · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2012, 22:31:32 »

why would the manual go into such detail ?,it gives a lot of information on how to alter the length of the shaft to suit both manual and power without resorting to chopping and welding.it gives
very precise measurements for both early and late columns....even the cross section diagrams indicate the colapsable telescopic design of both early and late..they just need a tap with a mallet
and the theres a whole section complete with illustrations of the inspection holes for checking the steering shaft length once it is put back in the column.....

scoot · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2012, 04:41:11 »

Quote from: dave harrison on January 30, 2012, 21:37:42

If you get a copy of the Haynes manual (section 32 steering and suspension)
it mentions that "all" steering shafts are "colapsable type" and the...

I don't know the answer to the question at hand. What I do know is that the Haynes manual is incorrect on all sorts of things. If you are trying to verify parts compatibility, I would look up the part numbers for the steering column in EPC and see how many different ones there are...

scoot · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2012, 05:23:49 »

OK, here's what I get from EPC:

230 SL - Upper Steering Shaft
113 460 0509, replaced by 113 460 2309 (up to ident no 002979)
113 460 0609, replaced by 113 460 2409 (my guess is this is RHD)

230 SL - Lower Steering Shaft
113 462 0101, replaced by 113 462 0501

250 SL - Upper Steering Shaft
113 460 2309 (up to ident no 002979) US and non-US (my guess is this is RHD)
113 460 2409 (up to ident no 002979) non-US

250 SL - Lower Steering Shaft
113 462 0501 (up to ident no: 002979)
113 460 3909 (as of ident no 043 002980)

280 SL - Steering Shaft
113 460 3909 (up to ident 003048), (up to ident 044 003398)
113 460 4409 (as of ident 003049), (as of ident 044 003399)

There is no distinction shown for power steering vs. non-power steering.

Dave H · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2012, 09:28:36 »

Thanks for that Scoot...i agree 100% with what you say..the EPC shows there is no power steering "specific "shaft either for 230,250 0r 280 sl,s.
How did mercedes originally fit power steering to one car on the production line and not on the next if no part exists ?
Good engineering practice would suggest its the" same" shaft that telescopes as is sugested in the manual.....
HAS ANY BODY EVER TRIED TO SHORTEN A SHAFT BY REMOVING IT AND "TELESCOPING"IT WITH A FEW TAPS WITH A SOFT MALLET AS DESCRIBED IN THE MANUAL ??
this is for 280sl where I believe the whole single shaft telescopes ,and 230 & early 250 where i believe the telescopic part is in the upper of the 2 shafts !!!
I hope i am right ........please feel free to let me know your experiences on this ...even if you think i might be talking out of my backside.........
We need to answer this question once and for all as the steering column seems a big grey area, somebody out there knows the answer........

twistedtree · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2012, 13:37:21 »

I've got a steering column in my shop and will take a look at it today. I don't know what vintage, or even if it contains the shaft, but I'll see if I can find something to confirm or deny the theory.

Dave H · « **Reply #10 on:** January 31, 2012, 13:52:22 »

Dave Gallon
Vendor
Senior
++++++THIS IS A COPY FROM A 2009 THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT++++++++
Location: USA, CA, San Diego
Posts: 106

Re: Switching Manual to Automatic Steering

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The power steering box (and pump) applicable to a 280SL were used on many models of Mercedes from the 1960s and even the 1970s. However, pitman arms are not generally interchangeable. On a 250SL and 280SL, the pitman arm for a manual steering box is a 111 463 25 01. When power steering is fitted, this pitman arm is deleted and a 112 463 16 01 is used. You may find several different pitman arms on a power steering box depending on its source. I would have to do further research to determine which models originally used the 112 463 16 01 but the part number is right on the pitman arm so you can check what you have. The point is that when installing a power steering box from an unknown source, you must insure you have the correct pitman arm. Further, it is not appropriate to remove the pitman arm from a manual steering box and install it on a power steering box.

The steering on 280SL and later 250SL has a collapsible steering column. As such, the steering column does not have to be changed when installing the power steering box on a car with manual steering. The BBB for passenger cars from 1968 describes the procedure for adjusting the length of the steering column to match either the manual or power steering boxes. The 108 steering column has no application in a 280SL

The location of the pitman arm on the steering box is clearly indicated by a mark on the pitman arm and the output shaft of the power steering box. There is no question of the correct rotational position of the pitman arm. However, it is true that when installing the power steering box onto the end of the steering column, the steering column must be in its straight ahead position (as indicated by the mark on the steering wheel end of the steering column) and the steering box must be locked in its straight ahead position. This is required so that the turn signal switch cancels at the correct rotational position of the steering column. Further, the steering wheel must be installed in its straight ahead position (in other words, spokes horizontal) when the steering column is in the straight ahead position. When these parts are assembled correctly, a front end alignment is required so that the car drives straight ahead when the steering wheel is in its straight ahead position

twistedtree · « **Reply #11 on:** January 31, 2012, 18:24:54 »

The steering column that I have on my parts shelf has a bend in it where it goes from fat to narrow. Does that mean it's a 230 column? Anyway, it doesn't have the two access holes shown in the Haynes manual.

Dave, what every to finally sort out here, it would be great if you could write it up and add it to the tech manual.

Dave H · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2012, 21:01:02 »

Hi Twisted tree
thanks for your help
It sounds like you got a 230/early 250 column......haynes manual says "ALL" columns are colapsable ! if thats the case the telescopic part can only hide in the the upper shaft...
A lot of very experienced people on this forum indicate that this upper shaft will not telescope and so the bottom shaft has to be chopped and welded....if this is the case then i will agree with them and we will have our definative answer but, untill its proven ( ie bashed with a mallet) i have go along with the manual......where did the manual get the precise measurements from ? its not something Haynes make up....
Anyway chopping and welding steering columns sounds too much of a bodge up....a more engineered fix is to take it to a machine shop and for an hour and have it reduced and resplined !
An even better fix is to find out once and for all how mercedes did it on the production line in the first place....where is this elusive short lower shaft ? whats the part number ? it certainly would be easier if it telescoped.........

What however is becoming clearer by the minute is that the later one piece 250/280 column is telescopic and does not have to be changed when doing a power steering conversion....
We just need to hear from somebody who has "telescoped " a shaft to let us know ......

Thanks for bearing with me

twistedtree · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2012, 21:41:14 »

I think you might be the first person to attempt length adjustment with a mallet rather than a torch. Are you ready to remove your steering column and try it? Come on, take one for the team

Jack Jones · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2012, 02:50:00 »

The BBB states that there are 2 locations on the column (manual and power steering) to place a specially made location tool when removing the steering box to prevent the telescopic shaft from changing length. Since my column is a 5 minute job to remove I will take one for the team this weekend and adjust the shaft as per the Haynes manual. Stay tuned

Dave H · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2012, 07:19:04 »

If things turn out as we hope then it will confirm that a power steering conversion on a late 250,and all 280sl,s is a relatively simple process....go jack go !!!!!!

dave

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2012, 21:42:25 »

So, what happened?

Jack Jones · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2012, 02:48:09 »

Sorry guys. I have been unable to find the time but I will attack it in the next couple of weeks.

pagoden · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2012, 10:25:26 »

PSSSSSSSSSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHShshshshshshshshshshssssssssssssssssssssssssssffffffft.

[Anonymous gratuitous characterization of the deflation
of collective expectation, anonymously contributed by
an anonymous hijacker of Denny's ID - - - - - honest.]

zoegrlh · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2012, 14:53:54 »

Contact Jim Villers, (757-481-6398, 190SL.Jim@cox.net) he did this conversion on his 230 SL. Steering shaft had to be cut and welded.
Bob

waqas · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2012, 18:50:21 »

Pagoda World Issue 13, set to go to the printers very soon, includes a fine article by Jim Villers on this very topic. Watch for it in your mailboxes within a few weeks.

pagoden · « **Reply #21 on:** March 08, 2012, 22:34:06 »

Sounds like initially the 113s didn't have telescoping shafts but later iterations got them as M-B responded to problems with flexibility on the assembly line as theorized here. And quite possibly M-B had it so together that they developed and instituted a convertible shaft as part of introducing the PAS option to our cars. We might further speculate that our people have so seldom encountered the convertible shaft due to the widespread inclusion of PAS in most (nearly all?) 113s built from the time those shafts were instituted, the result being that the candidates for conversion have the original shafts requiring surgery and the rest already have PAS, so the convertible shaft remains a stealth feature in them. However it turns out it's another 'Lets figure this thing out' unfolding: nice.

Pagoda World much and widely anticipated, and way past time for some of Jim's good work. [Great instinct for promo, Waqas!

Many thanks for PW, too.]

Dave H · « **Reply #22 on:** March 09, 2012, 12:36:28 »

I wonder how many other late 250sl and 280sl,s have manual steering ??
I say this because my late 250sl is a manual steering car and i know jack jones 280sl is the same...there must be at least a thousand others out there of the thousands made which did not go for the power steering option back in the day!! they will have the "stealth steering shafts" just ripe for conversion ?
I am not recomending that people should rush out and do this ,its just that i like to set myself little chalenges, to see whats possible, and find the easiest way of doing it ! like i said before " it may not work out but all evidence points to it working......
Heres where i am with this !
After convincing myself (through drawings and advice on this forum) that i had the telescopic (stealth) shaft i bought a power steering box ,pump and fittings from a nice chap with a donor 280sl .
I did not buy the column and shaft as i convinced myself i did not need it ( come on ,be positive )
I started to remove the engine yesterday and had it out by 7 in the evening (i left the 4 speed gearbox in the car) i will remove this later when i put the car in the rotisserie jig .
Anyway i am at work today but this evening or tommorow (SAT) morning i intend to stand in the engine bay, remove the manual steering box and coupling and
give the bottom end of the shaft a good tap and see what happens, i will use the guide holes in the upper column to give me the required length.
I will let you all know what, "if anything" happens....wow ,how sad am i !!!
Is it just me.......dont answer that ...

pagoden · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2012, 08:17:10 »

Wow, the 'best of the best' (it is said) on your own rotisserie fixture. I'm smiling a little, with complicated feelings: pine for youth and wish you very, very well with your project. Great reward. Lifelong memories. Inhale deeply.

Denny

Dave H · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2012, 08:56:32 »

Myth confirmed.......i telescoped the steering shaft today......with the engine out i could sit in the engine bay , i did not want to strip out the manual steering box as i still need the car mobile with steering intact for moving into and out of the garage as i continue to strip it down .
I removed the bolt from the coupling and with a large screwdriver i levered the coupling off the box without too much effort...
The shaft withdrew (telescoped) up into the column as expected about an inch and a half whereupon i prised it back down again and back onto the box..
To sum it up all late 250,s and all 280 sl cars have this telescopic colapsable shaft .
All 230,s and early 250 sl do not it turns out.
Next chalenge is to turn my 4 speed manual into a 5 speed, this sounds easy! am i missing something ?
Just joking...ive got my work cut out as it is .what i must say is what a joy it is to strip one of these cars down, everything has its own bracket, no cheap cable ties..
i cant wait to get back in the garage...

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Author Topic: conversion to power steering seems easy! am i missing something ? (Read 14891 times)