3.27 rear end

[ashley]

Thanks for the tip Dan, my car is a 69 and has rear discs, so I'm hoping I can just swap all my calipers, rotors and cables right on to the new diff?

[Benz Dr.]

That should work as long as you can get everything apart. Only the cables are different.

[ashley]

If the new/used 3:27 diff has discs and my car has discs why would'nt my calipers with ebrake cables attached bolt right up? If not what cables would I need to order?

[Benz Dr.]

You can use all of your old parts except the E brake cables. There's a LT and RT cable which are different lenghts and are 113 part numbers.

The small E brake shoes and assorted hardware can go together dry but I would use some anti-sieze on the adjusting wheel threads and the levers where the cable attaches to the levers. Use plenty of anti-seize on the cable end where it enters the brake caliper carrier. The cable ends are usually siezed so badly that I have to use a lot of heat to get everything apart.

[ashley]

I'm still confused. All of my rear disc brake components on my 69 280 sl are in perfect working order ie: rebuilt calibers, new rotors and clean and adjusted ebrake hardware, everything is rust free and works well including the ebrake cables. After replacing the diff and discarding the old brake parts and ebrake cables on the 108 axel, why can't my existing calipers etc. bolt right up to my new/used 108 diff using my 113 ebrake cables? 

[ja17]

Hello Ashley,

Your old W113 parts will bolt up and work fine.

[ashley]

Thank you ja17......

[Benz Dr.]

Uh.... that's what I was trying to tell you. Everything except the cables will fit and you can use all of your old parts. All you need to buy is 113 cables.

[ashley]

Dan I don't think you're reading my question carefully, I HAVE 113 CABLES on my 113 car with disc brakes, and you keep saying I can't use them when I swap in the 108 diff.

[Benz Dr.]

Ah, yes. I missed that somehow, which isn't that hard for me to do.

 I think I lost my reading glasses........ now where did I put them? ( CRUNCH!!! )


 Never mind, I found them...... :'(

[hank sound]

   Dan, you're not 20 years old . . . nor am I (73).  

We didn't lose our reading glasses - - it's this "so miserably lacking" modern day way of communicating, where typing doesn't begin to cover the issues, and where nobody has any idea how anyone really feels about anything.    

I truly hate this "techno"  $hit !!!   Sorry for the rant..........  I still love hearing a voice on the other end of the line.................

And now, may I modify my post 15 minutes later - - as I acknowledge the possibility that some people "can't talk comfortably" and so they type.......

Whatever, I guess I have to be OK with it

Hank

[Benz Dr.]

I can't type - never will either. My wife, who can type vey well, is amused at how quickly I can put a post together, all by sight, with one finger.

  I'm only 57, slightly blind, and can't hear you speaking when there's any back ground noise from a crowd. Too many years riding on an open tractor I'm sure.

[hank sound]

  Hey Benz Dr.,

Film sound guy here (Tommy Boy) - I too, hate back ground noise, whether it be in real life or recorded.  

Issue at hand - - A large number (all relative) of Pagoda fans, have already, or are in the process of changing from their stock rear end ratio, to the "lazy" 3.27 ratio.    

I chatted at length with my tech today, and a very interesting element came up.    It had to do with the validity of using the larger brake master cylinder of the 280SE 4.5, as opposed to staying with the stock 280SL unit.   Apparently, the rear disc brake system on a 4.5 car, is a bit different (larger capacity) than that of the 280SL unit.     So - - why do I bring this up?     My tech informed me that in the past, he had completed this conversion from stock, to 3.27 and had also changed the master cylinder to the slightly larger 4.5 configuration.    He said that his client never (in the past) felt that the stock brakes were "lacking", but after the conversion was completed,  was amazed by how much more responsive and strong the brakes 'seemed" to feel.

Your thoughts ?........

Cheers, Hank

[GGR]

Well,

The brake balance between front and rear is quite a delicate thing on the Pagoda due to its short wheel base and amplified effect of the mass transfer while braking. For example, the repartition valve in the back is different on Pagodas than on sedans. And the 4.5 does not have one at all.

Force is dependent on piston diameters. If they are the same on the 4.5 and the Pagoda rear callipers then they can be swapped. If not, I would keep the ones that were on the Pagoda originally (as a matter of fact I even believe piston diameter is bigger on the Pagoda callipers and their force is being limited above 30% pressure or something like that. The 4.5 doesn't have the pressure regulator so it compensates with smaller piston diameters. But this should be confirmed as I did not have both callipers side by side).

I'm not sure the 4.5 master cylinder is different from the Pagoda ones, or at least the piston diameter.

I believe the Pagoda brakes are largely sufficient for the Pagoda, in terms of power. But they may start fading if used intensively on a track or on a mountain road. So the first thing to do is to replace the pads with carbon-kevlar ones and the fluid by the blue one used by people who use their car on track days (higher boiling point), The second improvement would be to fit the front 3.5/4.5/6.3 vented discs together with back plate. If the 4.5 front calliper piston diameters are the same, then they should be used. If not, I believe the 4.5 callipers have a spacer in the middle to compensate for the wider disk. I would krack them open and transfer the spacer onto the pagoda callipers. I know callipers should never be opened but I did it in the past and the car is still doing very well. New bolts and seals may be adviseable.

[pagoden]

I have seen older posts -- not necessarily here -- that claimed the parts were available and the work could be done by ordinary, non-anointed folk.  Even I got successfully through a little of that 'way back in another century on other marques with ATE calipers - - cracked them open but didn't replace the square-section O-rings due to the difficulty of getting past the No-No prohibitions to the parts source information.  I was more easily intimidated then as well as besot with the positive outlook of the young, so just cleaned 'em up and went for it.  ['Young and dumb then, old and wise now.'  Sure: that's me.]  I do think there are guys on wider Mercedes forums that have found sources for the little bits since then.] 

BTW - I learned by misadventure a couple of years back that Porterfield's carbon-kevlar pads are available with a "T" suffix, indicating thicker pads -- and they were, and so of course 'wouldn't go', a considerable inconvenience at the time.  I think I saw some indication of these for 600s &/or specials chasses in the '69 TDM, so they might be offered industry-wide and come in handy sometime in parts swapping/mating situations.

Denny

[pagoden]

Looks like we have mission-crept clear over by R&D.  And there's "Low Rider Option"/Ride Height cooking along in Body, Interior, Paint, Chrome and Cosmetics and talking about suspension parts and geometry.  Got to be a source of substantial PITA for Administrators, also a pity.  I'm relieved it's over my paygrade.  Does remind me to give thanks to and for our Administrators and Webmaster: gentlemen, kudos and gratitude for all the enabling - - doubtless on behalf of many, if I may say.

[hank sound]

Hey gang,

My new, long legged rear end is all coming together.    My tech is using all necessary new parts, good parts from my 3.92 RE and the "goods" from the 3.27 donor diff.   Should be finalized by mid next week.   Will keep all of you interested parties, posted.

Cheers, Hank

[Benz Dr.]

We just finished a 3.27 axle and one thing we did was to remove the vent from the top of the diff casing. I moved this over to the original area on the inner left exle tube found on any 113 car.
 Working on a 6.3 last week, I noticed that the axle vent is located mid way on the right axle tube so the idea isn't without some consideration. The 6.3 ratio is something like 2.85 with about 450 foot pounds of torque so that axle could get hot with the kind of power you can put down.
If it woks on the 6.3 it should work on the 3.27 axle. 

[ja17]

interesting................ keep us up to date Dan.

[hank sound]

And while all this is going on, my tech has created an SS braided hose with modified AN fittings, to take the place of the cooling tube found on my donor 280SE/SEL 4.5, 3.27 rear end.    I'll get all the numbers in order and will let you all know what our "cooling tube" approach will cost.   There will be of course, NO markup for me because it's called "Pagoda SL Group Love"

I'll take pics of the tube/hose on the work bench and also after installation.   I'll post them in this thread.

Cheers, Hank

[stickandrudderman]

SS braided hose with modified AN fittings

I'd be doubtful of a ss braided hose being able to replicate the cooling properties of s straight steel hose.

[ashley]

I recently got my 69 280SL 4 spd back on the road after a 3:27 swap and I am really happy with the results. It feels like a whole different car. Its absoulutly the best improvement you could make to one of these cars, I chose to plug the holes for the cooling tube, finding a shop to make a flexible tube was more difficult then I thought so I hope I don't lose the vent vomit lottery.... I made extra sure the axels were level and diff oil was slightly below the fill hole. I guess only an extened road trip will tell, did 25 miles yesterday and no barfing out the vent so I'm hoping for the best. Now that its quiet at speed its time to upgrade to an ipod jack and new speakers.

[hank sound]

Hi Colin,

I believe I understand your logic.   My feeling is: "it's better than no tube at all".    Of course, here (could be) the perfect opportunity for someone to strike a pattern for a hard tube with proper fittings that would be sympathetic to a 4.5 (3.27) rear end, mounted in W113.   I suppose I could do a finished, tube product, if you guys would like me to.    

This is such a perfect example of the value of the following thought: "God, if I only had".     When you find yourself saying that, you just may have invented something.  

Yo........ you want a tube?   I can make you a tube.   Watch this...presto.....you're a tube!!!

Cheers all, Hank

[Benz Dr.]

I have my doubts it's even needed.

[Garry]

I'm with the Dr.

 Initially I tried to have a cooling tube in place but all I got was leaks so I plugged it and have not had any heating or leaking problems.  Reading old links and there are many over the years, it appears to really be a hit and miss both on fitting one with out knocking bodywork and or leaking.

I could not find anyone on the Forum who had any problems after using plugs.