Tech Manual Wiki vs. Forum Posts (Response to Peter)

[Peter van Es]

Whilst I really, really appreciate the contribution, (and the other Howto and Reference posts you made) I would like to ask you to add these howto sections to the appropriate place in the Technical Manual, in future. There are two major reasons for doing that:

• Photo's can be uploaded on our site. The photographs that you have provided are too useful to be hosted externally... if the image hoster goes out of business, or changes it's policy, we will have text without pictures. That would be a waste of your wonderful work.
• Everyone can help, add and contribute to this section.

Peter

[mrfatboy]

I wanted to start this thread to repsond to Peter's Post in one of my [How to] threads.  I didn't want to "muck" up that thread with this response because I would like it to be all about that subject and not get off track.

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16056.0

"Whilst I really, really appreciate the contribution, (and the other Howto and Reference posts you made) I would like to ask you to add these howto sections to the appropriate place in the Technical Manual, in future. There are two major reasons for doing that:
Photo's can be uploaded on our site. The photographs that you have provided are too useful to be hosted externally... if the image hoster goes out of business, or changes it's policy, we will have text without pictures. That would be a waste of your wonderful work.
Everyone can help, add and contribute to this section.
Peter"

@peter
I want to thank you for all the hard work you have put in to this forum.  I have a tiny bit of experience in this area and know it can be a thankless job with all the demands people make.  I am a member of at least a dozen forums and while this one is still going through some changes and growing pains it is still 'top notch' in my book. Of course, part of that is due to it's members.

Although I have been apart of this forum and the yahoo message board since 1995 I don't always follow "what's going on" on a day to day basis.  I have been absent for the last 3 years doing other projects so I am not up to date on the new procedures.

First off, I whole heartedly agree with you that images should be uploaded to the sl113.org site just for the reasons you stated.   I even thought about the exact problems you mentioned before I uploaded them.   At the time, I didn't know a BETA photobank was set up.  I ran into the "duplicate image" and "you already posted this" error that people complained about.  I went with what I know.  Also, I wanted to format the pictures in my post a certain way and as far as I could tell the current way just appends all the pictures at the end.  Hence, why I used an outside picture hoster such as tinypic.com.  Anyway,  I'm glad you are in the process of fixing the picture attachment issue and am looking forward when the method goes final.

Second, I had no idea that I was able to create/change items in the Tech Manual.  Is that option available to everybody? Members/Nonmembers?  Seems scary to me   I was under the impression that certain "worthy" threads (ex. linkage adjustment) were "stickied" or "moved" to the Tech Manual after the "uber" members gave their blessing.  I certainly don't want to put anything in the Tech Manual unless it is 99.9% verified.  That's why I created the [How to] & [Reference] threads. I wanted to invoke a discussion and give people a chance to comment good or bad so I can make changes and make sure it is clear and accurate.  Only when it was polished or deemed important enough I thought it could be moved over to the Tech Manual Wiki.  I have no problem editing the TMW and adding info that I provided once I feel it's complete and error free.  I didn't realize I had to power to do so.

Thirdly, I was going to make a post regarding the [How to] and [Reference] tags in the subject line of the posts that I made.  I decided not to bother but might as well take the opprotunity now.  The tag idea came from another forum I am apart of and it works extremely well.  Two benefits come to mind. 1) A tag such as [How to] clearly denotes that the post is offering information and a solution.  2) It is very easy to  "snipe" your search when looking for a particular [How to] answer. For example, doing a search for "[How to] fix the wrd" would sure make zeroing in on the correct thread easier if it was available instead of searching through all the "wrd problem" threads hoping for a solution.  I know at first this might sound a little redundant to the Tech Manual Wiki but in my opinion it really isn't.  It's an enhancement.  The [How to]'s can invoke discussions that lead to the ultimate fine tuning of the [How to] and then get "blessed' into the Tech Manual.   There can be much info gleened from from reading all the comments.  Some of the info just doesn't make it into the TMW.  I found numerous cases of this just this week while researching my problem.

 I would like to suggest moving forward that people start using appropriate tags such as [How to], [Reference], etc  in the posts when they have valuable information.  People already have posted additional info in my Dashpot thread.  That's great!  Once that thread plays out we can move it to the TMW.   I sure the community can come up with other tags as well that will help to locate the desired info needed.  I do want to make it clear that I'm only suggestion tagging posts that are "offering" information and not "requesting" info  


Keep up the good work!

[Cees Klumper]

Not all the content of the technical manual is available to all members. So if you move information there, you risk making it inaccessible to non-full members.
Also, non-full ("basic") members cannot edit the technical manual, so you, as a basic member, cannot add content. Personally, I think that is a pity, also because it was likely done to encourage people to pay the membrship fee while the group already has great difficulty spending what it is taking in now. But, where money is involved, usually people believe that 'more is better'.

[Peter van Es]

Let me address some of these points...

It is very easy to allow all members (Full or not Full) to update the Technical Manual. Precisely because of the fear of "demolition" we've limited update powers to the Technical Manual to full members. We thought that by restricting access to people who've made a commitment to this group, we'd limit the risk. Cees, you were actually party to that decision... and it has NOTHING to do with money.

Technically however, the Technical Manual ALWAYS keeps a copy of the old page. It is therefore extremely easy for me to ban the wrecker and reinstate the original page. Hence I am not worried about a mess, just like Wikipedia is not.

Only a small portion of the Technical Manual is only accessible to Full Members.... about 5% or so. The same content is available in the forums, in a less structured way. We aim to give Full Members a little extra that way... but for the enquiring mind most of it is still to be found on the forum.

So why do we recommend using the Technical Manual:

Well, through it's nature, it is an ideal mechanism to refine content, getting comments from collaborators, and together developing a definitive document.

It allows for much better formatting of pictures, with legends, and flow of text to the right or left of a picture. Pictures uploaded to the Technical Manual are hosted here, and therefore safe forever.

The reason a lot of info does not find it's way into the Technical Manual is because many people, like you, are afraid to edit it, and add stuff to it. But that has now become a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm not an expert on these cars, by any means... as many people will point out to you. But I do dare to make a decision to add something to the Technical Manual. There's quite a few sections fully authored by me, just by getting text from the forum and making an informed decision on what is true and what is not.

So whilst I think [How To] or [Reference] sections are a great idea, they are exactly the reason why we created the Technical Manual. So I really, really would like you to add them there. Because if you don't no-one will dare -- or bother --  to move your stuff there... and would that not be a shame?

Also, as you've found yourself... forum threads tend to "muck-up" with other stuff... however much you try to prevent that. A Wiki page... you can "de-muck" easily yourself.

Have a look at these links and pages, explaining the original thinking behind the Technical Manual:

http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Main/EditNotes
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Main/News

Peter

[mrfatboy]

@peter


Thanks for the response.  I guess I was not clear in my original post.  I personally don't find editing the TMW scary.  What I meant to say it is scary to think anybody can change it and who knows if they are qualified or what information they are providing is correct.  For what you say you have plenty of safeguards in place to keep out the wiki vandals   That's good!

I think the TMW is fantastic but it should be filled with things that are proven, verified, and trusted or least the "Best we know now'.  In my opinion the birthplace of ideas and information should be the forums where all discussion happens.  The perfect place to review, iron out, and confirm the content.  Once deemed a worthy and accurate topic it definitely should be moved over to the TMW.  This mimics how most forums work in the world.  People post topics and the ones deemed of extremely high value are "stickied".  On the Pagoda site, we just happened to have something much better than a "sticky" but rather the TMW.  So, I guess what I am really saying why don't we have both?  It's no different than any other forum but you just set this one up better with the TMW as the "go to" bible.  Basically, this is exactly how the pagoda site is operating now.

I don't see this as a either/or scenario. The TMW and discussion work hand in hand.  In my mind I am suggesting no change but just enhancement to the same exact system we are currently using.  My suggestion of adding tags to original "information providing" threads is just a way to help weed out "Please help me" threads when searching. By no means am I suggesting it to be a mandatory procedure. Using it does help us all in the long run. I can't take credit for the idea. I am just taking it from other forums that use it and it has proven to work well. So really at the end of the day the forum is as exactly as it was but maybe a little easier to search and maybe actually help facilitate the valuable threads to move to the TMW.  I see the [How to] threads as the template to the TMW items.

As for who actually moves the [How to] threads over to the TMW when they are ready?  Well, I assume the original poster would.  He/She went to all the trouble to do the [How to] so I would think they would move it over once all the discussion has ended and the bugs worked out.  (Uh OH!  Did I just sign myself for more work?  )  If not, I sure some proficient community members can help out just as it sounds like it happens now.

I will definitely take a look at the wiki links you posted.

thanks
fatty

[twistedtree]

So I "think" what I'm hearing is:

1) Let's add tags to the forum - yes, sounds good, but it's easy for me to say that since someone else has to do the work.

2) The forms are where ideas get bashed around, and the TM is where the results get summarized so others don't have to watch the sausage being made.  Your post on IP timing I think is a great example.  If it were wrong, believe me it would have been corrected.  And it will make for an excellent addition to the already outstanding TM section on the IP.

[Cees Klumper]

Thanks for that clarification Peter - based on it, I would like to suggest that the board consider giving basic members the same rights as full members. Since neither money nor 'content control' are the reason they don't have those rights currently, I think there are no arguments left to warrant making the distinction anymore. It would also allow original poster (who cannot add content now) to do what we'd all like to see done. And it would make important information available to more people who can use it. If I were a basic member, I would really hesitate to put time into enriching the technical manual if my access to it were on 'shaky ground'.
I must say I am not familiar with the tags mechanism so have no opinion on that.
Finally, I have attempted to do something in the tech manual in the past, but found the wiki language/system too cumbersome. Clearly that must be because I haven't bothered to really try, because if millions of people can use it, I should be able to. So I will try again!

[66andBlue]

Hi Cees,
I agree that there is no good reason why basic members should not be able to add something to the manual or modify existing parts.
That is something the board will discuss during our next Skype session. Any plans for one soon, Peter?

Hello Mr,
I am happy that you posted your [how to] and [reference] findings after struggling for so long with the IP and I am sure that they will be helpful to others in similar situations. I am not so sure, however, what the use of tags will do to improve our overall "knowledge content".
One argument you are making is this one: "My suggestion of adding tags to original "information providing" threads is just a way to help weed out "Please help me" threads when searching."
Searches sometimes fail for three reasons: (a) the information is just not there - and tags would not improve this. 
(b) The wrong search was used because quite frequently a different term or phrase is used by the searcher than what a poster has used.
Here is an example. One poster called it a "doodad" and another "Tenderhook", both wanted to know how to install it - but who'da thunk it that the two are the same? It is the seal that goes around the hook in the soft top. If one knows that this thing is associated with the soft top then a look at the soft top entry in the TM would have yielded the answer.
(c) Unfortunately, as far as I know a search only goes through forum posts and does not include the technical manual.  If that could be changed then we would not need any tags to get better search results.

I only wish that the Wiki syntax and linking rules would be more transparent!

[mrfatboy]

Please let me address the TMW point first.

If I'm hearing correctly, Peter really would like people to add content to the TMW more.  As I learn a little bit more how this is all working this can be attributed to 1) people not having the necessary TMW permissions to change the TMW due to their member status, 2)Technical know how, 3) They don't have time or just don't want to bother. 4)Afraid to actually put something in that might be wrong.

Point #1 is a website policy.  It sounds like the board will have to revisit that.  If it's not about money and the safeguards are in place to protect from wiki vandals, you might as well open it up to everybody.  However, I think you will find points #2,#3,or #4 are really your driving factor here.

Point #4 is of actual concern to me as I consider the TMW as the "Pagoda Bible" and I expect all information to be proven, verified, and trusted or least the "Best we know now".  What procedures are in place currently that inspect and verify that information is actually correct when added?  For example, what happens when somebody adds incorrect information into the TWM?  Is there a review process? How long can bad information go undiscovered? I pity the poor person that comes after and uses it.  This is why I originally wrongly assumed that a "board" picked the worthy and valuable threads, boiled down the necessary info and added it to the wiki in a nice neat format.

In my case, I posted a couple of [How to]'s this week which have received very good response and led to some enhancements to make the thread information provided even better. I would expect now that the "powers that be" would send me an PM saying "great thread, please add it to the TMW, and this is where we would like you to put".  At this point I would say I'm glad it was deemed of value and would be happy to add to the TMW.  Other's might not know how or just don't have time and would hopefully say so. At this point the TMW would have to be updated by a community volunteer.

So now let me clarify what I meant by "the powers that be".  This could be the a board formed by the website, the community, or both.  In most other forums that are not as organized as ours this is done by the community. People post in the thread "Awesome thread", "Please make a it sticky", "+1" or some such affirming note to elevate it to a "must read".  The forum network administrator then "makes it a sticky".  Ja17's Linkage Adjustment Thread is a prime example of this. 


Let's now move on to the tags discussion.

There seems to be some confusion what they really are or do.  Tags are just a way to clearly denote a forum discussion topic. They also have a great side effect of finding the desired material when searching.

For example, what thread would you read first if you were looking for information on the WRD in our forums?

"I got the WRD blues"
"WRD and me"
"Please help!"
"I fixed the WRD"
"[How to] Fix the WRD"

Seems obvious to me.  The 4th and 5th one, correct?  The 5th one has the added bonus of an easier search ([How to] WRD)  Now, that is not to say that the answer I am looking for is not also in one of the other threads. Our whole forum is based on threads like that and I always come across a valuable tidbit of information hid deep inside every one of them

The tag idea is nothing more than putting a nice descriptive title in your subject line of your forum post!  It is not a radical line of thinking or methodology.  It also benefits by denoting the thread as "providing information" instead of "asking for information".  And of course, helping out with using the search function.

Again, I am not suggesting this as mandatory.  People can still title their posts any way they want.  But I can tell you in 5 years time when I forget what the depth measurements of the injection pump cylinders are at 20 ATDC.  I will just do a search for "[How to] injection pump" and it will be there (or at least among others)


To address 66andBlue's specific points.  I have to respectively disagree with you.  Using tags (aka descriptive subjects) can improve our "knowledge content" and the way we search for it. I stated my reasons why above. At the very least it certainly does not diminish it. 

a)You are correct, if the information is not there, it's just not there.  Tags (or let's call them very descriptive subject titles) have absolutely no bearing on this pro or con.

b)You are correct. This comes under GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). This is just how the world runs.  Tags or better descriptive subject titles can only be of help.  If somebody writes up a very informative post entitled "[How to] fix the doodad"  I can't help that but I can suggest changing the name to "[How to] fix the WRD" 

c)Being able to search the TMW would be a good thing.


As to the point of "wiki syntax" and "linking rules" I can not comment as I have never done it (yet )

[66andBlue]

....
As to the point of "wiki syntax" and "linking rules" I can not comment as I have never done it (yet )

That is exactly my point!
What you have kindly provided (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16067)  is a duplication of what is already in the technical manual:
"Finally one can turn the starter on and off briefly until the camshaft gets into the desired position. However, rather than using the ignition key it is much more convenient to use a remote starter switch [Fig. 3a]. Attach one lead to the + pole on the battery and the other to the “G” terminal (the smaller of the two terminals) of the thermo time switch [Fig. 3b,c] to engage the starter. This is by far the most convenient method."
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/uploads/Restricted/ValveAdjust3rev.jpg
Granted it is not obvious that information about a starter switch is in the Valve Adjustment tour, as you pointed out to me, so why not going in and link it to something more obvious in the TM?
I bet it would have required less of your time than starting a new, albeit duplicating, thread in the forum.  

As Peter wrote elsewhere:
Although it's useful to include links to forum topics in the Technical Manual, and you can do so, we originally intended for the definitive summary of a forum topic to be included in the Technical Manual, cleaned up and reformatted.
This way a lot of the "noise" and opinion, pro and con, can be removed and a final definitive description, that is concise, can be added.  A good example is the tuning tour being added by Twistedtree. People are making suggestions in the forum thread and Twistedtree is summarizing and standardizing it in the Tech Manual. That's exactly how it was intended to be done, see this explanation.
All full members are free to help out, and no, you can't break anything. If you mess up a page in the Technical Manual, you can always revert to an earlier version.
So have no fear, and help out!
I am thinking about paying the $30 membership fee for you, then you can add your remote starter procedures to the TM, and even better, start a new tour "How to chase down and correct IP problems".    
As you know from our conversations, I try (almost) anything to improve our Technical Manual!  Using your computer skills you might figure out a way how to include it in the search function.  Is that a challenge you want to take on?

[Peter van Es]

Well, a couple more thoughts from me.

• I do agree tags are a good idea
• I don't mind using a forum topic to develop a topic. But once the definitive version has been moved to the Wiki, should we then delete the forum topic for fear of leaving noise on the forum?
• Finally, on the search suggestion... The Technical Manual has its own search function... it will only find stuff in there. The Forum search only finds forum messages. Perhaps I ought to add a restricted Google site search (this example looks for all WRD entries on our site through Google and finds 10 pages of hits) somewhere to address this.

Wikipedia, like our Technical Manual, has no controlling board, authority or group either. As the current board of directors knows, insisting on such a committee would be a sure fire recipe for killing any and all activity on the Technical Manual: we wouldn't find the volunteers.

That does mean, as the warning on the first page of the Wiki says: This is a work in progress. At any time data may be incorrect, incomplete or even plain misleading. Due to the nature of Wiki development things may get worse before they get better. You use this information entirely at your own risk, the Pagoda SL Group takes no responsibility. That does however not mean, that it is dangerous to use the Wiki. I frequently check recent changes made to the Wiki, and check if they are ok, if the formatting is fine. I know there are a bunch of trusted, reputable members that also do so (Alfred, Naj and others) and fix problems when found.

So basically I can live with your suggestions, provided we then make an effort to move the stuff to the Technical Manual. At the next board meeting, we'll discuss opening up access.

And finally, we can always use more members like yourself, collecting and adding information for the greater good of the group!

Peter

[Peter van Es]

To do a Google search restricted to a single site, just prefix your search words in Google with site:www.sl113.org