Author Topic: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out  (Read 19223 times)

dtuttle123

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"Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« on: February 20, 2012, 12:39:50 »
In another post on the forum there is a photo of my 250SL beside a 280SL.  A few people commented that my 250SL seem to be riding low (compared to the 280SL).  It could be the angle of the photo, or that the 280SL was riding high (or that I have that special "low rider" option). 

Let's figure this out...

I took a quick measurement from the ground, through the centerline of the wheel to the bottom of the fender rim, and it measures about 23.75" on both front and back wheels.  I have 185 tires mounted on the car.

Could a few members that also have 185 tires take a similar messurement and report back with what they have?   If I'm riding low, the most likely reason would be worn shocks - they don't feel bad, but who knows.  The 280SL could also be running 205 tires.

Thanks for your help on this.

Cees Klumper

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 12:51:51 »
Hi Doug - just a small correction: low ride height would not be due to worn shocks, as these don't influence the height (just the 'rate of bounce') as far as I know, but could well be due to worn springs. On my other old car I replaced the front springs a few weeks ago and it has made a huge difference in both the handling as well as the height of the front of the car.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
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1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
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dtuttle123

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 13:05:47 »
Thanks Cees - good point!

santropezblueSL

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 12:09:02 »
Bilstein shocks will have an effect on ride height because they are pressurized.  These are the standard factory shock for a pagoda.  A new fresh set of Bilsteins will raise the ride height a little over a old leaking set of shocks.  How much depends on how bad the old shocks were.  Tired old springs can also sag.  Worn rubber suspension bushings will also sag and lower the car.  Of course so does rust.  I once had to move a very worn, very rusty Jaguar Mark 2 that was subsiding into the driveway.  With its tires fully inflated the body was resting with its rockers touching the driveway.   Extreme I know, but part of the reason I like my Pagodas so much...

 
Hi Doug - just a small correction: low ride height would not be due to worn shocks, as these don't influence the height (just the 'rate of bounce') as far as I know, but could well be due to worn springs. On my other old car I replaced the front springs a few weeks ago and it has made a huge difference in both the handling as well as the height of the front of the car.

ashley

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 23:44:33 »
Hi Doug, That was my car next to yours that day, and it was great to meet you by the way, although the ground was uneven there did seem to be quite a difference in height. I just measured my car from the garage floor up to the underside of the wheel opening and it was 26.5 inches in the front and 25.5 in the rear, I do have 205 tires. What is considered "normal hieght" for our cars? I know that changing the springs will affect height. I'm researching progressive springs but suspect that part of what they do is to lower the car a bit, not what I want here in the land of crappy roads. I rather like my clearance.

Eric

Peter van Es

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 12:57:16 »
Just search the forum for "Ride height" and you'll find many, many posts...

Once you've figured out the definitive answer, if you'd like to contribute to the Technical Manual: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Suspension/RideHeight
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

Shvegel

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 11:01:42 »
You might want to change your reference for measurement. If you measure from the wheel center to the lip of the fender you will eliminate the wheel/tire variables. Make sure trunks are empty etc.

dtuttle123

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 14:46:50 »
As Peter suggested (correctly!) - I did some more seaching on this topic, and found a number of posts with additional information.   I will take some time and try to summarize it for future use.

The short version is as follows:

  • There doesn't seem to be a hard and fast MB standard.

    Probably the best way to measure the height is from the center star on the hubcap to the under lip of the fender.  This takes the wheel size and tire pressure out of the equation.  The other variables are the weight - whether there is a full/empty tank of gas, and if the hard top is on/off.

    I'll try to compile a table with that data from various owners that has been provide and post laster - as you would expect - there's a range from about 13" to 14.5" - measuring from the center point of the star on the hubcap to the under lip of the fender.

    The variable in the height appear to be spings, shocks (if bilstein), and the various rubber pads (coil spring pad, pad on shock, end rubber compensation pad).  Many post point to the rubber pads first over replacing the springs or shocks.

    There is a suspention geometry (negative to positive camber) that is important to the vehicle - and probably better to get this correct, and let the height fall where it will.

    A common issue is that appears is that when you measure the height, there are differences between left/right front or left/right rear - for example, the left side front is 1" lower than the right side front.   There are various approaches to correctling this including additional spacers.
More to come - but that's a quick summary.




dtuttle123

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 19:22:21 »
I took some time to seach through previous posts on the topic of 'ride height', and using the standard method of measuring from the center of the star on the hubcap to the lowerst part of the wheel well fender I compiled the attached table of measurements from other member's vehicles.

There is about a 2" range across the data ranging between 13"-15".  Some of the variable would be the weight from the amount of gas in your tank to whether you had a hardtop on when you did the measurement.  The causes of height differences from previous posts were dominated (most likely) by the rubber spacers (springs & shocks), the coil springs (less likely), and shock absorbers (debate as to whether this had any material impact).

(Moderator:  Maybe you could move this post to the suspension section instead of where it is now in the body section)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 19:27:42 by dtuttle123 »

Tomnistuff

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 22:47:40 »
Maybe I'm missing something, but according to my interpretation of the BBB, the heights of the things that have been discussed here so far are not independent variables, but are dependent variables.  The only "measurement" or "adjustment" that I find in the BBB is the dimension "a", which is the difference in height of the inner lower control arm pivot bolt and the outer lower control arm pivot bolt, the inner being higher.  The "a" dimensions for a 250SL in curb condition (730 kP axle load) and under test load (780 kP axle load) are on page 40-0/3.  The sketch showing where the measurements are taken is on page 40-3/11.

Apparently all other car front end height dimensions are the result of that dimension, assuming the tires are right.

Tom Kizer
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
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66andBlue

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 03:00:26 »
Tom,
take a look at the dimensions drawing in the TM: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/ChassisBody/Chassis
and you'll see that the front frame is 194mm and the rear frame 232.5mm above "level ground" - but I am not sure whether the horizontal line is actually "ground".   
This drawing is also in the 1969 Technical Data booklet.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 03:05:30 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Tomnistuff

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 18:47:38 »
Alfred, if that line is ground level, then that car has a BIG problem - like "no wheels"!  At the center of the car, the height above "ground level" is 57 millimeters (2.24 inches).  I guess in a blueprint, the zero line has to be somewhere and it makes sense to put it close to the frame but not "on" the frame.

The "a" dimension in the BBB defines the distance between one point on the "front axle" (the inner control arm pivot), and one point relative to the "spindle" (the outer control arm pivot), and defines the weight on the front axle at that dimension.  That takes the tires and wheels out of the equation when the car is set up during a rebuild.  Of coarse, springs, spring rubbers and weight (options for example) make a difference.  I would venture to say that there is no right height and that changes should be made to get the lower control arm dimension "a" correct and set up the other things to make it look good.  The first sentence in section I. (alpha character) entitled Control Arm Position of the Front Axle, on page 40-3/10 says: "The position of the control arms is of very great importance for the riding qualities of the car and the free movement of the wheels at full lock."  Apparently the "a" dimension is the thing to set up and the height of the vehicle be damned, although unless the tires are really weird, it will probably look good.  I personally don't find a problem with the height of either of the two cars in question, and I regret having made the initial comment in the original thread.

Of coarse, when my car gets back from the paint shop, I'll probably get all anal about setting up my suspension also.

On one of the Ferrari fora (forums), there's a guy whose signature is: "It's only a hobby here!"  Maybe he's got the right idea.

Tom Kizer
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)

66andBlue

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 20:14:00 »
Hi Tom,
I agree that the vertical line shown on the drawing cannot be "ground" - or even "sea level"  ;)  ;D
But it must be defined somewhere/ somehow otherwise MB would not have specified it.  Could it be in relation to some factory adjustment bench?   ???
Anybody out there who knows the answer? Shvegel?
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Tomnistuff

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 21:29:04 »
That line is probably the surface of a bed-plate to which all the dimensioned "stand-offs" are attached, making a large check gauge.  When the frame is set on the bedplate, it probably has to be supported by those "stand-offs".  If they don't line up or touch within certain tolerances, the frame isn't right.  Just my guess.  It may even be a welding fixture.

After working in Ford of Germany Engineering for six months and working with Daimler Engineers for three years after the DaimlerChrysler merger, I stopped trying to second guess them.  German engineers don't make many mistakes, at least not many that I am capable of finding.

Tom Kizer
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)

pagoden

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 21:41:32 »
Yes, in the front it's the vertical distance between the inboard and outboard pivot pins on the lower wishbone (AKA lower control arm -- interchangeable terms), and like all of this stuff seems much simpler after you get your head wrapped around it -- if ever.  [Like algebra.  ;o) ]  Diagrams and numerical specs in the BBB and TDM.  M-B had a jig/tool for measuring it; our Arthur Dalton, too.  Or you could measure them both up from a common surface, such as the one the car is setting on, and compare for the difference.

And the rear height is determined by the camber, specified at:  1 degree positive +/- 30'.  That is, the wheel tilted at an angle of 1-to-2 degrees from vertical, top outward.  Measure angle from vertical with A. Dalton's specialized homemade $5 plumb bob tool or a $5 magnetic angle-finding tool (also plumb-principal) from Harbor Freight (not in Auto Tools: over with the carpenter's levels and rulers).  

M-B's 1969 Technical Data manual, Section 40: Wheels and Wheel Alignment; Load for Measuring Vehicle, specifies that measurements for alignment issues be done with the car in "curb condition": includes oil and water, full tank of fuel, spare wheel and tool kit.  There is a further standard loading termed "Test Load", which specifies 75 kg on each seat and 40 kg in the luggage compartment.  [Gets nicely around the "trunk"/"boot" issue, doesn't it?]  These pages further mention ambulances, funeral cars, heavy police radios and taxi partitions but I haven't seen the reference to our steel tops that other members apparently have found, likely in other editions of the TDM.  [My wife says I'm hopeless at finding things -- sound familiar?]

So everything starts from the differential in height of the lower wishbone axes at the front, and with the wheel camber at the rear; get them right and you get the ride height your're meant to have - - excepting only the differences in tires, which can be considerable.  And, since both the front and rear specs are given as ranges, the extremes of which appear to result in ride height difference of more than an inch, there's a range within which you can be 'right'.
____

As a sort of PS, somewhere in all the citations resulting from Peter's Ride Height link a few posts above, there is a post from our MBZSE quoting an earlier posting  by SD280SL, who cited the "M-B Book of Tables, 1969 ed." to the effect that 113 vehicle ride height should measure "160mm nominal" (~ 5 11/16) from ground to floor pan in the area of the structure directly below the door handles.  [I remember one of these gents as "Hans in Sweden" in a signature block but can't sort which is which in my memory.  And I think SD280SL is N.A. - no longer amongst us.]  This is interesting and might be a useful benchmark.  I haven't found it in my '69 TDM nor tried it on a real life 113 yet, but at nearly six inches it seems reasonable.  Meantime, those taking spindle(or star)-to-arch measurements might check the 160mm metric to see how it correlates with their 'S<->A' measurements.  [Thanks to Jim Villers for that very useful metric.]  

  

1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

mbzse

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 21:50:56 »
Maybe I'm missing something, but according to my interpretation of the BBB, the heights of the things that have been discussed here so far are not independent variables, but are dependent variables.  The only "measurement" or "adjustment" that I find in the BBB is the dimension "a", which is the difference in height of the inner lower control arm pivot bolt and the outer lower control arm pivot bolt.../...
Maybe I'm missing something as well, but I do not quite understand this... What Tom refers to here is the "scientific" specification for ride height, at the front suspension. When this height is set, the rear is then trimmed until the vehicle is level (measure with spirit level on threshold with door open)
Now, as suggested by me before, in the in German and Swedish version Book of Tables (1969 edition) in section "0", there is another, more direct ride height specification from Mercedes for all models. In the BBB under section"0-3/12" little heading "Measurements" is the same. For the W113 Pagoda it is given as 160mm from underside of floor to ground, measured in line with the door handle.

Added conclusion: If "scientific" method to set the ride height by means of the front wishbones is applied, this ought to result in just such a 160mm ground clearance.

/Hans in Sweden

.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:32:48 by mbzse »
/Hans S

Tomnistuff

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2012, 22:41:51 »
Hans, you are right, and wrong.  I missed that dimension.  But it is on page 0-3/8 for the 250SL and it is 125 mm fully loaded.  Page 0-3/12 is 160 mm fully loaded for a 300 SE.  I begin to think there are too many measurements to verify.  If it looks good, it must be right.  Besides I'm getting tired of trying to understand it all.

Tom Kizer
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)

pagoden

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 22:58:00 »
Greetings Hans -

Great: there it is; thanks.  I'd been looking for it in Section 40 with all the specs for alignment, ride height and such.  I'm not surprised to learn that your Book of Tables is our Technical Data manual (TDM).  It too gives the 160mm figure, if only I'd been looking in the right place.

I also see your point regarding starting from the front specs but have a hard time accepting that the rear should be set without regard to camber, as it has such a profound affect on handling.  I should rather think that both front and rear should be within their specified ranges and at points that would result in a level vehicle as measured at the sills.

[I'm particularly sensitive to this because, while my 280SL handles decently at lower and medium speeds, it gets, for me, a bit twitchy toward the higher end.  And while there are certainly several possible contributors to this behavior, I'm currently focused on getting the camber down to a minimum in hopes of addressing the oversteer tendency in all ranges.  I greatly prefer over- to understeer but feel that what I have is less civilized than is appropriate in a vehicle of this refinement.  If I have a good result with this approach, I can imagine starting from a low setting at the rear and matching the front settings to get the level-at-sills posture, which I realize affects alignment geometries far beyond the visual esthetics.  At my present rate of progress, this may take a while.]

Do you find an M-B procedure calling for working from the front as the standard?

Denny
1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

pagoden

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2012, 23:26:23 »
Tom, I don't even try to keep up with all the different versions and editions of what is called TDM over here.  I have an '69 edition and so does Hans....except that his and mine are in two or three different languages.  I don't trust the page references to be the same although they might be.  Mine has a note referring readers to the 1966 edition for models from August 1965 to December 1967 for the vehicle dimensions which include that frame/floor pan-to-ground specification.  Looks like that might take in the 250SLs.  [I picked up a 1971 edition as well on the theory that it ought to contain all there is for all the 113 production series, but seldom get around to using it and I don't think my theory was correct.  My impression is that not only do the specs change through the models but what information is included varies from edition to edition.  My 1969 copy led a hard and useful life before coming to me, and it's still the one I most reach for.]   Which one do you use?

Denny
1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

mbzse

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 00:17:08 »
Quote from: pagoden
Tom, I don't even try to keep up with all the different versions and editions of what is called TDM over here.  I have an '69 edition and so does Hans.... /Denny
OK, well, perhaps the US spec W113's differ from the European versions...? Seems to be many calls in the various factory technical literature.
Anyway, I enclose an extract from the German Book of Tables 1963 edition. As can be seen, the number there is 140mm, this is then increased to 160mm for the 280SL /8 in later editions.
Vehicle should be laden with 2 persons.
/Hans in Sweden

.
/Hans S

Tomnistuff

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 00:26:15 »
I know nothing (yet) about the rear of the car.  I looked up the front adjustments because early in the thread, we were all talking about one of the cars being higher in the front than the other.  I suspect that the rear is as important as the front, and that the BBB covers them both in more detail than I would like, or am capable of understanding.  I'm an engine engineer by profession.  I know little about suspensions, but I'm learning fast with this group.

Tom Kizer
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)

66andBlue

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 07:33:04 »
OK, well, perhaps the US spec W113's differ from the European versions...? ...
Hans,
there is indeed a difference between your version in 1963 and the 1966 US version - the ground clearance number you show for the 230SL (140mm) has now decreased to 125mm!   :o  Yet, the height of the coupe ("Cp") of 1305mm is always the same for the 230SL, 250SL and 280SL.
I believe that the 140mm and 125mm for the 230SL are the height of the exhaust above ground and not the body floor clearance. This is quite clear when you look at the 280SL data in the 1969 TDM. The ground clearance is now indeed specified at 160mm for the floor clearance but for the exhaust it is 128mm.

With respect to the initial "low rider" question it is interesting that Mercedes dropped the Fording depth "b" measure of 255mm shown for the 230SL in the 1966 TDM (which is the distance between the rear fender and ground) and replaced it with a "Ground clearance "c" measure in the 1969 and 1971 versions. That one is bit harder to measure because the point where body floor height is measured is the intersection of two angles!   ??? 
I am very sure that I would never find that spot!
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

stickandrudderman

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 08:17:05 »
I think you guys are getting too hung up on the detail here.
The "correct" method is indeed to measure the angle of the front lower wishbone. It is a fact that if you change that angle you will change the ride height at the front. It can be changed by installing stiffer or longer springs or thicker spring pads.
However, low ride height in my experience is nearly always a function of tired road springs. I'm afraid that after 30 years working on these cars I simply know when the ride height is low by looking at the car, I do not measure it and so cannot give you data to work with.
It's very common for me to suggest to my customers that we install new road springs as a result of this observation and the results are nearly always satisfactory for not very much money.
On very rare occasions I have had to adjust the height left to right with different thickness spring cups on the same axle but this is probably a result of poor chassis repair or failure in the past.
If the new springs leave the car sitting nose high I would take a very close look at the rear central axle mounting. These are very often collapsed and will not only affect the ride height
but have an enormous impact on ride quality too.
As already mentioned, when the car is set up correctly you will have 1° of negative (should read positive, not negative. I was going to simply change the text but then future posts might appear confusing to readers and I don't know how to run a line through the incorrect word as I've seen some people do) camber at the rear wheels. If you do not have this then it is the compensator spring and/or its mounting cushion that needs looking at.
For the same geometric reason as the front wishbone angle, the compensating spring will adjust rear ride height.
I usually work on the principle that it is unlikely that anyone has swapped out the spring cups from those that were fitted by the factory when the car was new and so a level and correct ride height was almost certainly achieved with those cups fitted so I leave those until last if further adjustment is needed.
Lastly it should be mentioned that front sub frame mountings and rear swing arm bushes can also affect ride height, as can failed shocks. (The original shocks are gas filled. if you take a new one and compress it against the floor using your body weight, it will re-extend when the weight is lifted off. It follows that this pressure will act as a spring assister and so will have a small effect on ride height.
Ideally, if budget permits, I would change all of these components at the same time:
Engine/gearbox mountings
Front sub-frame mountings
Rear axle mounting
Rear axle swing arm bushes
Rear axle centre mount
All road springs.
I would check the shocks at this time and change them if failed, but they are extraordinarily reliable.
If all goes well it can all be done in one day and the difference is stunning.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 21:22:53 by stickandrudderman »

mbzse

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 10:24:27 »
Quote from: 66andBlue
.../... Yet, the height of the coupe ("Cp") of 1305mm is always the same for the 230SL, 250SL and 280SL
Hmm, yes, this is a significant clue - it seems they evolved the concept of "ground clearance" over the years, changed the way it was defined. But one number is consistent, and actually easier to measure than under the car:
The total height of our Pagoda cars with the Hard Top fitted should indeed be just over 1,3 meters (some 4.28 feet)

/Hans in Stockholm

.
/Hans S

Cees Klumper

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Re: "Low Rider" option - let's figure this out
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 14:38:29 »
After having replaced the front springs on my '73 Chevrolet, and having noticed what a huge difference this has made in both ride quality and height, I will be replacing my no doubt tired Pagoda springs in the near future. The question of how to tell whether springs have become 'tired' or not has been discussed here before, but to my knowledge never really answered. I think from Stick's reply and my own experience with the Chevy, I think now I know enough.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II