Cost of engine rebuild

[marios]

I am starting to restore my 230sl and I just pulled the engine out of the car. Any idea on:
a) where to take it in southern cal for a rebuild
B) cost of rebuild
C) where to take it to have it sandblasted, painted, polished.

Thank you!!

[Cees Klumper]

Best I know, Metric Motors is one of the best go-to places in the US for the rebuild. The are located in the San Fernando Valley in CA so that's a bonus:

http://mercedesengines.net/

Price listed for the 230 sl long block rebuild is $7,850

Good luck,

[Tom Colitt]

Hi Marios

Well, not to be immodest, but I can offer you a high quality rebuild at my shop for less than Metric Mechanics. I'm not taking anything away from the quality of their work, but I can guarantee that mine will be even more customized, authentic and with more attention to detail than others, especially when it comes to the cosmetic exterior portion (can you believe I've seen high Dollar Pagoda engine rebuilds with Red engine blocks and the shop's own re-furb. number stamped into the block?....).

This is something that is not unimportant with engines that are becoming rarer every day,especially if yours is still the original engine number. Of course, I'd also love to offer you my 280SL/ 3.0 engine conversion which is undetectable from a factory stock engine from the exterior, but has custom pistons and rings, a re-ground crankshaft and custom camshaft to match the better breathing....:-)  If you ever make it to my shop in Los Angeles, (which, by the way, also covers all your other restoration needs that you asked about), I can show you personally how well the 280SL/ 3.0 engine works or I always enjoy just helping and answering any challenging Pagoda questions for you :-)......

Regards, Tom
ClassicAutosLA

[Cees Klumper]

Sorry Tom, I did not realise you also do rebuilds.

Tom has a good reputation around here so I would definitely check his services out.

[Tom Colitt]

Sorry Tom, I did not realise you also do rebuilds.

Tom has a good reputation around here so I would definitely check his services out.

Hi Cees

Thanks for the kind words and yes. I will do pretty much anything on a Pagoda (I almost said to a Pagoda, but I thought that was a poor choice of words). I will even catch a cow, die her hide and sew it into some new seat covers, meaning that I have done everything myself on these cars that you can imagine. Right now, I am re-finishing a bunch of original woods pieces. I still prefer to use the original wood, rather than the newer solid wood replacement with the high gloss finishes. I even install 5mm (3/16") steel wire to reinforce the pieces against their tendency to warp .....

[Benz Dr.]

Best I know, Metric Motors is one of the best go-to places in the US for the rebuild. The are located in the San Fernando Valley in CA so that's a bonus:

http://mercedesengines.net/

Price listed for the 230 sl long block rebuild is $7,850

Good luck,

[Tom Colitt]

Mario has asked me for a quote and I told him that I would currently do the job complete for $6500. Obviously, we know that Metric Motors has a good reputation as well. The only thing I could add is that I don't mass produce engine rebuilds. The ones I have done have lasted for decades... For me it is also important to consider doing what is best for the customer's given situation. I don't know whether they decide on the best course of rebuilding for each individual engine. Will they consider how straight the head is before they simply resurface it by machining it? There is only a limited number of times you can rebuild a head, so I prefer to not just remove material from a head as a matter of course, but evaluate the best approach. Unless the customer just want me to use all new parts, I prefer not to replace a valve that isn't worn and is still well within specifications, if some light re-grinding will make it as good as new. A part that has lasted for 40 years is a known quantity. Of course, I am also the guy who talks himself out of extra business when I recommend to my customers to stick with their 40 year old dash bulbs after they ask me if I should replace all their bulbs "while you are in there"? By whose logic can we guarantee that some new bulb, made in Hungary, will last longer than one that has worked with no problems for 40 years?....I'd rather not make money selling parts or labor, if my evaluation and/ or experience tells me there is no good reason to replace it, although I know the replacing everything with a new part approach is often the easiest (and most profitable?) approach in the repair business.

Also, I know the correct finishes for those looking for an engine that is not only fully functional and durable, but also "correct" compared to what the factory delivered. (paint finishes, metal plating, glass bead blasting.....

These are all things to consider. In the end, my main strength has always been persistence and attention to detail, rather than speed and quantity :-) Each probably has its own good place in car restoration.....

[DaveB]

Tom,
I love your philosophy and approach, just don't know how you can make enough money working that way (not that I can define what enough money is; "how much land does a man need" and all that).
If I still lived in LA I would be delivering my motor to your shop tomorrow.
Dave

[mdsalemi]

Tom,

Indeed you have a good reputation, and though I have not seen your shop I have spoken with you both on the phone and at PUB.

Metric Motors documents what and how they do in great detail; so precisely what they do on a "long block" or "short block" rebuild is known.  You can find the information on their website.  They have been doing what they do for quite some time, and they too, have a good reputation.  One of the things that attracted me to them so many years ago (it has been 10 years now, since my engine rebuild) is that they don't much care about "what's wrong" with your engine, they don't "fix engines" by selectively rebuilding them, they rebuild the engine, period.  A consistent process will more often yield consistent results than not.  I don't think they do dumb things like just start planing heads when it isn't called for.  I know on mine they found a minor crack and repaired it; I believe on Bob Possel's they found the head was not rebuildable.  There are a lot of parts that are replaced, but a lot are reused as well after an inspection and test I believe.

With the help of my restorer, my engines serial number was not touched.  The body of the engine did not have improper finishing either.

Now, you with a BSME are a bit different than your average shop, but the other thing that scared me away from a "local" rebuild (not that I had a list of local rebuilders, mind you--I took the advice of my restorer and never regretted anything he told me) is the fact of "focus and attention."  Did I really want somebody rebuilding an engine who might spend a few hours a week at it, at random times because his bread and butter keeps coming in the door for brakes and an oil change?  If you read the post by Gus Monahu (why I don't work on my car) you realize that the mistakes Gus refers to, and others admit to, are often the result of forgetting something, losing focus, having your attention diverted, etc.  I'm not suggesting that these apply to you, but I've seen it happen.  One of my friends here had his 230 SL engine partially rebuilt by a well-known local place, but they never could seem to completely finish it.  Engine rebuilds were not their main focus, so any time there was something to divert their attention, it was!  Since it has yet to be fully installed in the car by another shop (who took over the whole job when my friend pulled the plug on the first one) we all hope that they got it right.

Metric also has wholesale rates, so if you were in the middle of a job and didn't have time to do the engine, they'd give you a jobber price and you could focus on the rest of the car.

There'a another big Mercedes engine rebuilder out there--Noel's.  But, never heard about anybody who has used them.

I would trust you with a rebuild, but I would not trust many who don't do it regularly...just my thoughts.

[Benz Dr.]

 Anyone who thinks they can do this sort of work, keep everyone happy, and make real money at it - well, good luck to you. It's a lot harder than you might think and even after having years of expirience doing it, it's still hard to run a small operation.

  I pretty much follow Tom's aproach to things, it's best to be honest about things - even though it can backfire on you. I have learned a couple of things over the years though; cutting corners usually never works; trying to save someone from buying a new part, or simply trying to save the customer money - always costs me money and time in the end. I leave all major engine parts that need to be replaced up to my machinist because sometimes it's wise to defer to a higher power.

[stickandrudderman]

I quite happily quote exhorbitant prices for an engine re-build and it's not so I can make exhorbitant profits.
It's because I only work to a very high standard and I want to be sure that the customer has the stomach for it. If I quote high and the customer agrees, I have the finances to do the very best job without having to have "difficult" conversations.
The best part of all is that if I can then do it for less, I do; and there's no greater feeling than telling a customer that not only is their engine running perfectly now but the bill is actually less than I quoted.
For example, every engine I build has every moving part balanced to far, far tighter tolerances than was possible when the engine was originally built thanks to modern techniques. Vibration costs energy but, certainly here in the UK, no mass engine builder is going to go to the lengths necessary to achieve excellence.

[Benz Dr.]

That's why I try not to quote on stuff like this because every engine is so different. There's a basic price for most things and I find that over the long run it's X amount but until you get everything apart, you never really know.
Some engines need valve seats or align bores which isn't usual but I've had to do these things. The right amount is how much it takes to rebuild your engine. For someone else, it could be less, or a lot more to get to the same place. How your engine was cared for over it's service life has a lot to do with this as well as prior work and how well it was done. Frankly, it's a crap shoot - you might be lucky and maybe not. 

 Our friends at Metric Motors quote an average wholesale/retail price. If you engine is toast, as in no useable cores, it will be more.


I recently installed a rebuilt 190SL engine only to find it was making all kinds of horrid noises. After inspecting things a bit I found the cam was one tooth advanced and the valves were hitting the pistons. We fixed that and started the engine again and it was still making noise - a deep, ratting, knocking, sort of sound. 
We pulled the engine and found that the '' builder '' had all of the main bearings in upside down! This cut off oil flow to the two outer main bearings as well as number 1 and number 4 rod bearing. The chain rails were all original, the crank gear was almost worn right off, there was a broken cam bearing and the oil pump had dino tracks on it. The valve guides weren't installed properly and the seats were way out of square with the guides. In short, it was a mess. The only good thing about all of this was that it had never been driven - it would have seized up completely. :'(

The pistons were fine but I had to get all new bearings, gears and an oil pump. After I put it all back together and the engine was running again, I took it out for a drive. It went about 1/2 mile and suddenly a huge cloud of steam came out of the engine bay. The temp gauge was climbing quickly so I shut it off and walked home.
We pulled it back to the shop and found that a freeze plug had popped out of the block. The builder used silicone to seal all of the plugs in. This stuff is just slippery enough that it's the worst thing you can use. So, we pulled the engine out again and I took it the hour and a half drive back to my machinist. These are the disc shaped freeze plugs and if they aren't knocked in just right they'll come out again. I wasn't even going to try this job I'd never done before.

The engine is back in the car running - three installs and two removals later. Now I ask you, how in the hell could anyone foresee all those problems and and come out on top with an early quote on the job?

[mdsalemi]

What a story Dan, about that 190SL engine.  There's little substitute for experience.  Bearings in upside down?  Silicone freeze plugs?  Three installs and two removals to get it right says it all, I suppose.

You can't give a firm quote on that, just estimated hours...and if the customer does not understand why this job was different than another, well, that's probably a customer you don't need...