Author Topic: Chassis Rebuild  (Read 8412 times)

rm45cdo

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Chassis Rebuild
« on: March 22, 2012, 09:41:48 »
Hi,

Working on a 280 sl from east coast USA. Car was bought by a friend and when I saw it I could cry.
Tons of bondo and gunk all over the chassis. left, right, front and rear. Needs a total rebuild.
Haven't even seen what is under the body paint but having seen the bottom, it doesn't look promising.

Quick question, was the w113 chassis used for any other type? If not which chassis comes closest to serve as donor parts?

Any input from previous restorations and restorators are highly appreciated. I told Brian to take a magnet to inspect the car but he did not listen.

THX Jimme  
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:24:20 by 280SL71 »

DaveB

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 10:36:57 »
Based on that description the best option would be to get out of it at this stage. They share mechanical parts with W108 and W110, but few chassis or interior parts.
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

pagoden

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2012, 10:54:43 »
Hey, Jimme -

You'll get a lot more and better advice as others read your post, but I can tell you that the chassis is unique to the Pagoda.  Internal M-B designation of models is based on the chassis.  These cars are all categorized/identified as W113, be they 230 SL, 250SL or 280SL.  [There's a later model called 280 SL as well, but it's based on another chassis and so known as the 107 among folks who are more familiar with the M-B way of doing things.]  Saves a lot of confusion that otherwise can stem from all the chrome numbers and letters on the back.
What the Pagodas/113s share with many other M-B models is the hard parts; they built them out of standard sedan parts.  I gather that's not much help with the situation you and your friend are in.  Our sympathies, guys.  Many panels, inside and out, are available.  Some are OEM, some not.  Some is made -- or not made, actually -- of unobtainium, and then it gets interesting.  A panel man working on my car awhile ago got a quarter panel repair section to replace some of the area between a rear wheel arch and entry door and found the placement of the complex lines and curves there to be approximately correct, but the depth and distinction was insufficient in his view -- it was 'lazy', so he reworked it: everything was pretty much in the right places so he 'merely' deepened the figures and made the lines crisper and more distinct, using the originals on the other side as a guide.  Amazing stuff; made me envious.   
Sounds like you're in the same line of work.  Good luck with the one you've got your hands on.  The lore is that they are some of the last hand-built -- hand-finished? -- cars made by any sort of major manufacturer.  The apparent lack of panel seams was accomplished not with hammer-welding, they say here, but with spotwelding followed by silver soldering and, I guess, lead.  Replacement -- and I suppose the original -- engine hoods come about an inch oversized all around, and are trimmed to fit the constructed car, and then numbered to match.  Oh: the hoods are one of five aluminum panels one the 113s.  The front and rear lids, the two entry doors and the soft top well cover are all aluminum, to include the pretty serious frame structures in the doors, which are nice pieces of work. 
Well, it sounds like it could be quite a project.  On the other hand, floorboards are easy to get and probably no different than anything you've seen many times before.  Luck and best wishes.

And now I see DaveB has weighed in with what may be the best course to take.  At the very least, I think it's safe to say this is likely to become a very complicated experience for you and your friend.  You're probably in the best place here for info, advice and support, but DaveB said it briefly and well. 
 
1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

Larry & Norma

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 13:00:42 »
A few photos may help with the advice.
Larry Hall (Gnuface)
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2005 C230
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rm45cdo

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 18:12:31 »
Thanks guys, I will put some pictures on tonight. BTW stepping out is not my option as of now.
If work can be done in reasonable time and "costs", I'll help him.

Cheers

rm45cdo

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2012, 05:44:19 »
Here are the pictures, 280 SL 1971 and 65.000 mi on the clock.

rm45cdo

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 05:47:16 »
Ahhrrgg one more.

Thanks for the support.

nikopu

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 07:25:51 »
reasonable time and "costs" -> No.
Looks like a BIG project. These cars can be real rust dogs.. more will be revealed.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 07:32:31 by nikopu »

Shvegel

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Re: Chassis
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 07:55:17 »
65,000 miles unless it was a European import brought over some time in the past. When it was imported the Kilometer per hour speedometer would have been changed to Miles per hour and the reflected miles  would be the miles since. Search "Data Card" for how to obtain the original build sheet with destination dealer.

Just about everything on the car can be sourced from K and K Mfg (kkmfg.com)  but it is expensive. About 1500 buys you the rocker panel assemblies and front floors but from what I see there is going to be more.   My bill (fenders, nose, floors, rocker panels, quarterpanels and cowl was over $12,000.  the entire job with paint is headed for 30K.

Reach up in the front wheel well on the inboard side. At the top there is an upper frame stiffener.  Feel around carefully and you will find the top of it is gone. Trunk floor will probably be gone. Frame behind the rear of the rocker panel assy etc etc. In order to change the rocker panels in full you need to at least cut the bottoms off the fenders and quarter panels.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 09:50:58 by Shvegel »

twistedtree

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 11:18:32 »
I hope your friend knew what he was getting himself into.  That will be a lot of work, but I'm sure the results will be great.
Peter Hayden
1964 MB 230SL
1970 MB 280SL
2011 BMW 550xi

Benz Dr.

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 17:07:49 »
Without seeing the whole car, I'm wondering if we're looking at the same car. Not only is this rust typical, it's also repairable. If you live in the rust belt as I do, things like this apear to be normal.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Bonnyboy

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 17:28:53 »
Good luck on the car.  It seems many are abandoned / sold off at this point.

It may be the time now to talk to your friend about potential costs so he stays your friend and you don't end up out of pocket with parts of a Pagoda taking up space in your garage.The same extent of work on my (Dad's) car was done to a price "see how far you can get with $10,000...working evenings and weekends"

 Fortunately / unfortunately my car was abandoned after fixing that rust because $10,000 didn't go far enough.
Fortunately for me in that I got the car that otherwise would have been sold (sell it and get maybe $5,000 and get someone who will whine about all the missing, broken and rusted parts and panels? - no way I'd rather give it to my #1 son and see what he can do with it)  
Unfortunately in that they did a "farmer's job" with sheet metal from the local wood stove factory
Fortunately in that all the metal is galvanized but only some of the work got done
Unfortunately in that nothing really lines up and all the drain vents are gone which has caused new rustouts.
Fortunately in that I don't mind about the body - its about the sentimental value first off and then the specifications that get me excited...Euro - 4sp - 3.69 LSD and leather interior....

Ian


Ian
69 280SL
65 F-100
73 CB750K
75 MGB
78 FLH
82 CB750SC
83 VF 1100C
94 FLHTCU
08 NPS50
12 Pro 4X

Benz Dr.

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2012, 01:03:46 »
Hey! What do you mean by '' farmers repair '' ? 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Shvegel

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2012, 03:23:47 »
Uh oh, Somebody pissed off a Canadian. Poor bastard. Go get um Dan.

Garry

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2012, 03:27:51 »
Its a Canadian on a Canadian, no shattered international relations here.  They will have to just call it a civil war.

Keep it civil Farmer Dan :D :D :D

 
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G
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rm45cdo

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2012, 23:52:06 »
Gents, thanks for all the input, we found a place to do the work, so it does not end up in my garage.
The owner has been made aware of this website and potential cost to fix the car.
Bummer they didn't use galvanised steel back east, might never have seen this Pagoda.

I will read all your projects, loopholes and experiences.
Thanks for all support, speak soon,

Jimme :-\

Bonnyboy

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2012, 18:01:29 »
Mr. Benz Dr.:

A farmers repair is what we would refer to as a "hack job".  The new metal was just welded over rusted out metal that was bent down and there are gaps where no metal was replaced at all.  I never should have bought that borescope because I never would have known.  But now I do....  There are pieces of metal that were just bent around rusted out parts and riveted to shape. 

All the past work I've done (limited at that) I always remove as much of the rusted out metal as possible so that the rust worm is gone.   

Not to worry - with a can of white spraypaint and some bondo my car now looks good from a distance and unless you borrow my borescope you would never know the evils lurking beneath my sills.  After I get her running right I may look at rectifying the rust repairs.  I got bigger things to worry about first.
Ian
69 280SL
65 F-100
73 CB750K
75 MGB
78 FLH
82 CB750SC
83 VF 1100C
94 FLHTCU
08 NPS50
12 Pro 4X

star63

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2012, 19:41:27 »
Bummer they didn't use galvanised steel back east, might never have seen this Pagoda.

Even though this is not 100% correct I'll try to make sure that I wouldn't have to restore my Pagoda ever again. (Hot dip galvanized... ;D)
Petri
'67 250 SL (early)
'66 230 SL (long project)
Finland

Benz Dr.

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 19:46:44 »
Hehehe...... I know what a hack job is; ;D I see them all the time. I can't even do Farmer repairs on new farm equipment today. A tractor or combine is so advanced today you need a specialist to fix anything. :o

  Around here, when your car comes in and somebody  %^^$ ed with it, it's universily knowed as being $#@& ed up. :D What we do here is un ^%$& your car. And this one will need the skills of a master un &^$^ er.  :(
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

hank sound

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2012, 20:09:41 »
 ;D LOL !!!

Hi, Benz Dr.

Cheers, Hank

rm45cdo

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Re: Chassis Rebuild
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 19:28:09 »
Thanks Dr. Benz, right in my ball park. I am from ducking Scotland we are champions for unducking things.

Ducking brilliant.  It is just so sad to see things so ducked up.

Engine and gearbox are out, front and rear end off and interior gone so we have it on the spit this week.

Keep you ducking amazing help coming.

Thanks you ducking very much. Cheers Jimme.