considering becoming an owner of 230sl

[Ed Fisher]

Good afternoon.  I am a new member to this list and I had hoped to get some advice concerning a 230sl that is for sale.  Let me say that I am reasonably handy with American automobiles and even a few Japanese brands but have yet to learn much about older Mercedes.  

This car has had the following replaced:
Gas tank
Injector pump rebuilt
Interior seats/carpet
Radiator (4row)
Fuel pump
Gauge assembly

What I have observed:

Texas car, no rust that I can find, even in the soft top storage bin
European order, originated in Germany
Engine was replaced at some time with a 1970 or so vintage motor
The steering is a bit sloppy
The car rattles appreciably when going over bumps
Car wanders ever so slightly
Difficulty starting it warm
Fuel sender bounces erratically
Wooden pieces on dash need replaced
No smoke on start up or during driving
Paint is decent, but poorly applied and will need redone (this I can do at home)
Hood doesn't align/close well, but no sign of collision damage just looks like bushings or alignment?
Most of the trim is intact, save a side moulding insert on driver's side between door and wheel opening
Air conditioning is operational, but someone has hacked the routing of the condensate tubing.
Auto transmission shifted abruptly, but I read that this is o.k.
Lights, horn, etc all operational
Aftermarket radio

Overall, the car is reasonably solid given its age.  My questions?   I have been reading the FAQ's and the past postings on things like suspension freshening and hard start warm but I am not too confident yet in what I have been able to learn.  So I post these questions to you folks.
1. From what I can tell the king pins and the rubber bits on the suspension will need to be fixed.  Where is the best place in the U.S. to get parts?  I have the tools and the healed over knuckles from past front end repairs on American iron, can I do this?
2. Any quick clues as to the hard starting warm?
3. The car is being sold in the sub 10,000.00 range.  Should I consider?
4. Since it will never be show with an unmatched engine, and a non-stock radio can I expect to reasonably put 5-6 thousand dollars into this car and have it tight enough to be a fun driver for my wife and me to run around in?
5. Is there anything else that any of you can tell me?

Thank you for reading and thank you for any replies.

Ed Fisher

P.S.  Whoever is maintaining this forum is doing a great job.  The search feature is first-rate.

[J. Huber]

Hey Ed.

Welcome to the site (and possibly to Pagoda ownership). In looking over your description, I'd say the 10,000 area may be reasonable. The "no rust" factor is huge. Many of the problems you cited are not uncommon and can be overcome. The only real red flag I spotted was the engine replacement. This is not necessarily a problem, if the new one was also a 113 engine. More information on this would really help us.

The hard start problem could be a range of things, all of which this site has probably covered. Likely candidates could be fuel delivery or a problem with your FI thermostat. If its still a 230SL engine, the thermostat is pricey (500 I think)-- if its a later 113 engine, that part is inexpensive (30). For fuel problems, it is a process of elimination -- and given you have a rebuilt Fuel Injection and a new gas tank -- the cost may not be too bad.

Things like rebuilding the suspension or restoring the dash wood can add up but again alot depends on your handiness and what really needs work. Just about all of us have or will have these same issues. Parts are out there. And once you and the wife enjoy a ride in your Pagoda it will all seem worth it.

Best of luck.

James
63 230SL

[Ed Fisher]

James:

Thanks for the reply, it helps a bunch.  I appreciate the vote of confidence.  What is the best way to identify the vintage of the engine?  Where are you getting parts?  Anywhere here in the South Central part of the US?  One other thing, the wheels have been changed out with later Mercedes wheels so I will need the original steel wheels, hubcabs, and trimrings? (if applicable on a 1964)  Can you lead me to some distributors/parts sellers so I can start getting an idea on pricing?  Thanks again for the reply.

Ed

[Jonny B]

There are a number of vendors in the US, check the vendors information on this site. I have used Millers (Carolinas), there is also K&K, Buds Benz. SL Tech, SL CLassic, OURsl.com and SLS (German site). The suspension pieces you mentioned are available through these folks.

The engine question will have a large impact on the parts as noted. The engine type is usually (but not always, marked on the drivers side of the block. Again, there are several posts on this site that spell that out pretty well. Or get the number and post it, for feedback from the very knowledgeable overall MB folks on the site.

One other thing you can check for originality (or damage potential) is the body number. This is the last series of numbers on the small plate in the drivers side engine compartment (by the brake booster). This number should match the number at the top edge of the hood, the softtop cover, and the hard top.(OURSL has an excellent description of all these miscellaneous numbers including the engine numbers).

As for wheels, Ebay is a reasonable source or other members on this site have them for sale from time to time.

Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto

[rwmastel]

Ed,

You should call Will Samples and speak with him.  Pay him a visit if you can.  He may do a vehicle inspection for you, but I don't know.  He will know part prices if you have specific questions.  He is at:

S&S Imports
330 Wendy Lane
Dallas, TX 75124
214-826-5977

He and many other vendors are in our vendor database at:
http://www.sl113.org/data/show_table.asp?table_name=usr_parts_and_service_suppliers

Here's my take on your situation:
1.  Rust!  You say that you don't see any, but you also say the paint job is not very well done.  Could that be because someone was trying to cover up rust and not pay much for the job?  Here's some key rust areas:

- under headlights - Remove headlights and check.  Check from inside fender well.

- on fender shelf - Feel up above front tires.  There is a 2-inch wide horizontal shelf that runs the length of the front fenders.  This typically packs with dirt and promotes major fender rust.

- rear valance - Crawl under car and poke around the rear end.

- trunk floor - Condensation builds up under rubber trunk mat and rusts the floor panel seams.  Remove mat and inspect.

- under parcel shelf - Remove the wooden shelf panels behind the seats and inspect.

- floor boards - Remove floor mats and inspect the bare metal.

- firewall - Most is covered by fireproof pad.  Poke at it from the engine side and inspect from passanger side, if you can get your head under the dash board!

2. Everything else.  What ever else you have wrong can be taken care of over time.

If the car's rusty and cheaply repaired, then the rest of the car was probably treated the same way.  For example, your bouncy fuel guage may be caused by an incorrect fuel sender for your particular tank.  People just didn't take the time/money to do things right when these car were 15 - 25 years old and not increasing in value.

 Your engine was probably another inexpensive job because 230SL engines cost more than 280SL or 280SE engines.  The engine number is on the block, just below the head, between spark plugs 5 & 6.  Use a flash light to read.  There is a ID Plate on the block and the number is stampped into the block just below the ID tag.

 With regards to the cheap fixes people do and how it effects you, everyone I know always says to find the best quality car you can afford to buy and get that one.  Don't go cheap expecting to fix it up cheap, you will lose out in the long run.

Good luck with your search, these cars are great and there are always several for sale.  Don't be in a hurry.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Cees Klumper]

It sounds good to me. The problems you mention are minor as long as, as Rodd pointed out, there is indeed no rust problem. The difficult warm start could be any number of things, but it sounds like you are willing and able to get to know the car mechanically and gradually get things into spec. It could be the warm-up thermostat, could be filters (air/fuel) and/or spark plugs that need to be replaced, maybe it's the valve clearances or the ignition timing, or the ignition vacuum/retard characteristics, injection linkage set-up, idle fuel mixture, etc etc. But whatever it is, if the engine, fuel delivery and fuel injection systems are basically ok, then you will get it to run like a charm.

Perhaps most importantly, these cars are engineered so well that, once they ARE in good order, they tend to stay there for many tens of thousands of miles with only regular maintenance, never failing once.

When you check the engine number as Rodd explained, particularly note the first three digits: 127, 129 or 130. The 127 is for the 230 series, 129 for the 250, and 130 for the 280. Also the cylinder head will have a type designation on it, right above the engine number cast in the block.

There has been debate from time to time on the significance of having the original engine or not. I tend to agree with those who hold that it is not important, like Dan Caron (Dr Benz). Although, yes, it may make the car a bit more special with the original engine, and hence does add some $$ to the price, this is in the end still a 'consumable' part just like a starter motor or fuel injection pump. If you look at it that way, people like me who don't really care actually pay less for the same driving experience! You have to be a real expert to know an engine is not original and you have to look very closely under the hood. What are we talking about really.

The 280 (130) engine fits all models, parts are less expensive and very widely available. You can even find a good used engine for less than the cost of new pistons for the 127 engine. So from the viewpoint of the preservation and enjoyment of these cars, having a less-costly option like a 280 engine available, is a good thing. Plus the 280 engine (like the 250) has more main bearings and should be a bit more resilient as a result.

Contacting Will Samples is a very good idea. I bought my engine rebuilding parts from him last summer and he was very friendly, prompt and accurate, and reasonably priced. Will is very knowledgeable on these cars and, altough not very many people know this, he deserves a lot of credit for getting this group started in the first place - it was he who, along with Rodd Masteller, Frank Mallory, Pete Lesler and others, participated very actively in the early days of the Yahoo! W113 forum.

If you do end up buying this car, or any other Pagoda for that matter (and I hope that you do) then having it serviced and checked out by Will the first time can already make a huge difference in the performance etc. of the car, if previously it was serviced by less-knowledgable mechanics. Many times it's little things that can make a big difference.

Good luck, and please let us know how things develop.


Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Ed Fisher]

Thank you all for posting replies to my questions.  I had no idea that a later engine could possibly be repaired more economically, at least as parts are concerned, and be more durable with more main bearings.  Who would have thought that I would actually look at non-originality as an asset?  I am a driver, not a show car guy (although I love looking at other people’s show cars!)  I will attempt to get the current owner to get the engine numbers and I will both look them up and post them.

I really appreciate the name and number of Will Samples here in Dallas.  There isn't much that you can't find in Dallas Texas so I wasn't surprised.  I was, however, grateful for the history of Will and a few compadres' setting up the great resource of this list.  It has helped me immeasurably already.  To Rodd:  I will take another poke in the area(s) that you mentioned.  I grew up in Akron, Ohio and lived there for the first 26 years of my life so I understand rust and I too have a great respect for the "thing that never sleeps".  

Texas cars are amazing really, but I also have a 1968 Camaro convertible that is in restoration and it does have a little rotting on the rear quarters and trunk floor from condensate and debris build-up. I will be wary.

On the 230sl I really don't think that the paint job was a "cover-up", but more indicative of the way that this owner would pay exorbitant sums to people, only to have them return substandard work.  That is largely why I learned to do my own repairs years ago, along with the pure satisfaction (and the reason to buy cool tools).  I will beware Rodd, and I appreciate the heads-up.

Is the hood alignment particularly pesky on these models?  It has already chipped some of the paint.

The owner told me that steel wheels and hubcaps are still available new.  Is that not a fact?

Again, let me thank you one and all for helping me so far.  If I do get this car, which is likely if we can come to an agreement on price, then I will be here often, at least for the first few years and thousand(s) of miles with questions.  The real goal though would to become a contributor.

Ed Fisher

[Cees Klumper]

Hi Ed. I was a complete blank on these cars (in fact on most things mechanical although I did work on Triumphs in the late seventies) when I bought my car a couple of years ago and, like you, found that there is a great deal of satisfaction, financial savings and quality improvement to be gained if one can do the work oneself on these cars.
The hood alignment is one of the things reported by many to be troublesome.

The hubcaps can be bought new (I bought four original MB caps two years ago, not very expensive), and I would guess the wheels are too, although I have not checked this. There are a number of on-line parts catalogs that will tell you quickly whether parts are available, e.g.
from SLS in Hamburg.

Good luck!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Douglas]

Cees, the car in question is an early 230 SL, so I think the wheel/hubcap issue isn't as straightforward as it is for us 280/"soggy & pretentious" folks. I believe certain sedans of the period had the correct wheels though. This would be a good quetion for Rodd or Achim.

Here's a very helpful link for anyone in the market for a Pagoda:

http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/w113.htm

I've said this before and I'll say it again: 230 SLs represent good value right now. They trade at a substantial discount to their 280 SL peers. I don't think that will always be the case.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #018260

[rwmastel]

Ed,

Here's another great resource that's on our vendor list:
http://www.sltechw113.com/

Regarding your desire for steel wheels, I was wondering your motive.  If the alloy wheels on your car are correct 280SL alloys then you may want to keep them.  They are lighter than the steel wheels (better performance) and people might not be "offended" by the not-original-to-230SL alloys because they are MB.

Hood alignment can be tricky.  The whole body of the car forward of the doors is welded into one piece, so if it's not "square" then the hood will not fit right.  When new, the aluminum hood is oversized so it can be hand trimmed to fit the opening.  I believe the aluminum doors were the same.  Look for weld lines as a sign of a replaced fender.  There are also spot welds in a line in the engine bay just under the top edge of the fender.  Check to see that these look correct.  Of course, having seen 10 or 15 cars would help you know what's right and what's wrong!

Ask the owner if he has the Data Card.  This was a factory supplied card that came with all the original papers.  It listed, in cryptic codes, all the factory options installed on the particular car, the chassis number, the engine number, the transmission number, the color codes, the build date, the country of original delivery, and more.  Owners can request a reproduction (from microfiche records) from the MB Classic Center in Germany.  This is a very important and helpful document.

Here's some more comments on your other observances of the car:
transmission shifting abruptly - This is not really that "OK".  There are several possible fixes or adjustments that are inexpensive.  You don't necessarily need a transmission rebuild.
steering is sloppy, car wanders - This could be cheap bushings in the steering column.  Steering boxes don't usually wear out, but the do sometimes need re-sealed.
car rattles appreciably - Could be window tracks in door, exhaust, rear differential mount, shock absorbers, and more.
wood needs replaced - Check with www.heritagewoodworks.com as they are very experienced with MB cars of this age.
some trim missing - Trim can be expensive, check with vendors on the vendor database.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Cees Klumper]

Hubcaps for the 230 SL are available here in Holland, and complete with the chrome rings they cost around $120 a set (ouch!).

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Ed Fisher]

Thanks for the additional information folks.  I am still in the research mode so every little bit helps. Cees: when you say 120.00/set is that a set for 1 wheel or a set for all 4 wheels?  (I fear I already know the answer but thought I would ask)  Rodd: Thanks for that great piece of news regarding the fit of the hood to the body.  I will look much closer at the attachment points and the spot welds.  Also, are there good books on these cars that go past say a Haynes (which I don't know if this is available or not)?  I wouldn't know where to find steering column bushings.  

Keep it coming everyone as things come to you.  I am reading this intently and sponging it all up.

Ed

[hands_aus]

Hey Ed,

Steering wander could be affected by the rear axle/diff suspension rubber bushes.

Replacing the big diff support bracket bush (accessible from inside the boot) will make a huge difference to the way the car feels on the road.

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[Douglas]

Ed,

I believe Cees was talking about the pair of pieces that each wheel takes. There's an inner hubcap and an outer trim ring. Mind you, you have to find the correct steel wheel first. If I'm not mistaken, there are aftermarket alternatives for these pieces, but the metal is much thinner. Again, I defer to Rodd and Achim and others with earlier cars on this issue.



Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[rwmastel]

Ed,

Have you looked here: www.oursl.com/research/research.htm

Haynes book is available (230-250-280 sedans & convertibles).

Steering column bushings are just above the steering box, about at the firewall.  Have someone gently move the steering wheel back & forth through it's free play zone and watch the other end of the steering box (what's that arm called?) for movement.  Slowly increase steering wheel input and watch the steering components move and look for free play.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Cees Klumper]

Yes, the $120 is only for one wheel (cap + ring). So almost $500 for the whole car. Many do favor the MB alloy (Bundt cake style) that were available as an option on later 280 SL's. These get sold on German Ebay for a few hundred $ all the time, so that may be an alternative if you like the look.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[n/a]

Rust!!! Keep looking until you find it. These cars could rust on the moon. If you truly don't find any then start worrying as it's most likely been covered up. Look for welding patches on the chassis particularly under the rear parcel shelf and in the fron chassis joins under the footwells. Rust is like cancer. Once you've got it it's hard to get rid of it and an outwardly OK looking chassis member could be rotten on the inside so really prod hard.

In the engine bay check the front cross member (only addition I could see to Rodd's list).

[Ed Fisher]

Good morning.  I decided to go ahead with the purchase of the car this weekend and I will drive her home next Saturday.  I want to extend a big thank you to all that have replied to my questions and concerns; you were a big factor in my decision.  I feel confident that with books, sweat, and the collective wisdom that I found on this list, I should be able to sort this car out and bring it back to the road worthiness that it was designed to provide.  I know that it probably makes more sense to buy a fully restored example that someone else has taken the beating on, but I don't have the expendable cash for that sort of outlay, and even if I did what fun is that?

 So I will try to figure out how to align the cantankerous hood (the spot welds were there, but it seems that during the radiator replacement the hood was not reinstalled properly) and to learn just what a “king pin” is when I get the rebuild kits.

The body to chassis mounts in the boot/trunk sound like another good candidate for refreshing and all rubber mounts are in for a good visual inspection.  Firstly though, a trip to the coin-operated car wash with my cans of “Gunk” and a floor jack so that I can clean the bits and pieces underside before getting too far into it.  I prefer to have things at least a little cleaned off; it seems to make the whole process more enjoyable.

The whole idea of obtaining this car was so that my wife and me could have an occasional drive on the summer nights here in Texas.  I have other convertibles, a 1968 Camaro and a 1958 Triumph TR3A but they are in phases of restoration and it occurred to me that too many nights/seasons/years are passing by while I fiddle around with these other cars.

We are slowly getting older, I at 46 and she at 50, and the grandkids are slowing my progress down considerably.  Not that I mind, just a fact.  As an aside, my granddaughter was helping me rotate tires which took at least 10 times longer with her assistance.  But, looking at her tiny little two-year old fingers starting the lug nuts on the bolts was one of the most priceless moments that I have ever had.  May I never get in too much of a hurry to understand that those moments are why I live, not to hurry on to the next project.

So, hopefully I can get this 1964 230sl with the white paint and the blue interior to give us a little respite once in awhile while we tool along and listen to the cicadas over the hopefully smooth hum of a fine German automobile.

So thanks again, and I’ll be here with greasy fingers shortly!  

Ed

P.S. I almost asked a question regarding insurance then remembered the great search engine.  Question answered!