power steering pump, pulley to body distance

[Ron]

 

I'm slowly fining out that my car, a '66 230SL is more a collection of random parts, and less a coherent car.

So I'm trying to get the power steering pump squared away.  It has a leak at the shaft seal, and 4 seals later, I'm ready to give up othn it.  The thing came on the car when I purchased it, and the pulley (straight shaft) was JB Weld ed on with because the key ways between the shaft and pulley were different sizes.  So probably the shaft was damaged.  But the pulley on the PS pump aligns with the corresponding crank pulley.

I have a second pump, that fits, that does not leak, but it's pulley is too far from the block.  Here's the distances from the rim of the pulley to the body of the pump for the two pumps:

original straight shaft pump 11mm

second, tapered shaft pump 15mm.

My question is, what is the correct distance for these pumps?  (Maybe I don't have the correct crank pulley.)

Would it be ok to run the pump with 4 mm offset between pulleys?

Thanks in advance,

Ron

[pagoden]

Bummer(s).  That's an awfully short belt to have any offset at all.  On the other hand, 4mm doesn't seem like much and most of us don't rack up a lot of mileage.  I'm hoping you get responses from our more knowledgeable members, and heartily wish you better luck.
I can toss this out, FWIW: the other day I had a view of my PS pump from an unaccustomed angle (through where the battery normally lives) which made it clear that the installation and adjustment travel for that belt is limited by some aspect of the mounting framework and that the tensioning adjustment eye-bolt itself has plenty of unused length available.  As you have become familiar with these workings and likely have them all apart and exposed, I commend you to the lengthening of the travel so as to ease the installation and removal of the 759mm belt, which some have gone so far as to sever in order to just get the !*&# thing off.  Yes, there are techniques for that, and modifications are hardly an attractive prospect when all you're hoping to do is change the belt, but you, dear fellow, might think of your current situation as an opportunity to improve your lot in later times - - - when, for instance, you're finally closing up this job and wish to actually install a belt as a nice finishing touch.  Then you'll thank me uh, yourself for making that little upgrade and likely feel a bit better about the whole wretched business.   ;o)   [I certainly hope it's just a matter of lengthening a slot, or some such.]  
In fact, I'd appreciate your insights as to just what could be done to give the pump more travel toward the drive pulley, making belt changes more routine.  On mine at least, there's ~ an inch of additional travel available on the little eye-bolt adjuster.  [And since it slips easily off & on its stud, even that isn't really necessary.]  If we knew what to expect, some of us would likely put it on the to-do list.
As to your more serious predicament, Ron, I'm sorry I have only my good wishes to repeat.
  

[Ron]

Thanks Dennis for your kind reply.  I have two responses.

1.  If your car is unmolested and 230SL, would you mind looking down at the pump, past the battery, and giving me the distance between the rim of the pulley and body of the pump?  You could stick something like soft wood in the gap and then measure that wood.  I'm trying to determine if the gap is proper at 11 mm.  Maybe my crank pulley is wrong.   

If my crank pulley is correct and the pulley/body gap for pump is 11 mm, then what I need for my replacement pump and pulley with the 15 mm gap, is a different pulley (the replacement pump came off a gas, 230, 1971 or so sedan).  I can have the replacement pulley turned down at the hole, it has the conical shaft setup, and then it would move the pulley to the proper position to line up.  (My "original" pump is a straight shaft, and I cannot get the shaft seal to work, after four tries.  It is strange and hard to explain, but the pump body at the shaft is not square with the shaft axis.  That is if the shaft is at 0 degrees, the opening (where the seal sits below) should be at 90 degrees.  It is more like 80 degrees, and at the shortest area, the outside lip of the seal is a bit exposed.  I ruined several seals trying to pound them in so the seal sat square in the hole, then I realized the rim of the hole varies in height, so the installed seal is level on side, and sticking out on the other.  I'm assuming its because my car was constructed on another planet, which I use to explain an number of other issues.)

2.  I've had the power steering pump out 4 times in the last couple of weeks.  There is a way to get it out without cutting the belt, and I've got it down to about 1 hour to get it out, change the seal, and back in.  However, this is assuming the pulley is not stuck hard on the shaft.

The pump does not move close enough to the crank pulley to remove the belt.  The bracket that holds the pump is like a cage, and the crank side of that cage stops the body of the pump from moving enough to remove the belt, even if all bolts are removed.  It is a poor design.

So here goes:

1.  Use syringe to remove all the fluid from power steering pump reservoir.
2.  Remove battery, and place large pan under pump and right front corner of engine.  Stick rags between pump and holder.
3.  Remove two fluid lines from pump, aim them to pan and let drain.  Wrap ends in rags, move to rear.
4.  Loosen and remove pulley nut and washer. 
5.  Remove rear bolt from pump/bracket.
6.  Loosen two front pump/bracket bolts, and use adjuster to slacken belt so pulley can turn.
7.  Don't bend the pulley.  Under the car, I used a square shaft pry bar between the pulley and bracket to apply pressure to the pulley.  Pry, rotate, pry, rotate, repeat.  If you don't light off the car, propane torch on the hub will help.  Eventually the pulley will move. 
8.  Walk pulley off end of shaft, catch the key if it falls, and remove, freeing belt.
9.  Remove front two bolts, pump/bracket, catch nuts and keepers, and whatever washers you find installed.
10. Remove pump up past battery tray, or down past lower radiator corner (it barely fits through gap).

If you cannot get the pulley off with the pry bar, you'll have to remove the radiator and use a puller.  So far, I have not had to do this.

To install, reverse process, installing belt with pulley.  It will barely clear the shaft to go on.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[pagoden]

You can get the belt on and off by getting it started (on or off) as far as it will go in an area of one of the pulleys such that rotation of the engine in the normal direction of operation will tend to 'walk' the belt further (on or off) as the rotation proceeds.  Rotate manually as with valve adjustment procedure (crankshaft pulley bolt), or some get more casual with it and just 'bump' the starter until it goes ... on or off.  May have to try a couple of times but is doable; 'nother skillset, like R&R of PS pump with seal replacement and belt installed in about an hour.  Kudos for that, and props for determination and grit, BTW.  [Don't forget to be a little careful with the power-'bumping' of the engine: disable ignition, neutral drive-train gearing, clear tools from the workfield during bumps, etc..]  Have to say that stuff, you know, for the youngsters at least..... personally, I never forget.               Now, where were we?      ;~)
Sorry: mine is a 280SL.  Plus everything in that area is all back together....of course.  What you really need here is someone with experience, and on more than just one 113 (my story).  For example, I have no idea whether straight or tapered shaft is appropriate for 113s.  [I would have guessed 'straight' and the same design on all M-B models.  Lack of imagination on my part.]
And I'm sorry (for all of us) to hear that the PS pump's adjustment travel (toward slack condition) is limited by the fundamental structure of its mount, which is in the nature of a cage.  I've seen that cage, from upside down, all covered in grease and road grit, and about 3 inches from my nose; I was sure hoping for a fairly simple tweak once the pump was out of there.  Sounds like we're stuck with the belt-wrasslin' and installing the best-quality belt we can find once this area is sorted on our cars.
Seems to me the simplest explanation for the pump body and the shaft being at anything other than 90 degrees is for the shaft to be bent just inside the seal area, at the bearing.  I'm thinking it got bent, hopefully on another car, and then the pulley was replaced with one calling for the different-sized shaft key you mentioned earlier.  Anything else is beyond my capacity to imagine, so I just dunno on that one.
 
   

[Ron]

Thanks for your reply Dennis.

I worked all weekend on the car, and got the idle problem and power steering pump both sorted.  I'll post the idle issue on that thread.

I again removed the power steering pump and this time the shaft seal was NOT leaking, it was the little "O" ring on the cover that hold the P/S pump valve.  That replaced, and, no leak. 

The pulleys line up, the pump pumps, I put the hood back on, and ran the car for the first time in long time.  Sounds and runs great.

Thanks for all the help on this site, since 2008!

Ron