Author Topic: Dash reflection in windshield  (Read 22492 times)

gugel

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, CA, Rolling Hills Estates
  • Posts: 302
    • CPE Site
Dash reflection in windshield
« on: July 18, 2012, 17:36:57 »
This has nothing to do with my Pagoda, but as this is a very knowledgeable group, I thought it would be a good place to ask.

The windshield on my 2009 ML350 is at quite a shallow angle, and the car has a light colored dash, which on a bright day can reflect very visibly in the windshield.  This cuts down visibility a lot, particularly when driving from a light into a dark area (e.g., into a garage).  Obviously I can get a dark colored dash pad to solve the problem, but I'd rather not (BTW, would the pad have to be dark colored, or would just the texture change be enough?).  So does anyone know whether there's some kind of coating one can put on the windshield to solve the problem?

With all the emphasis Mercedes puts on safety, I'm surprised that a problem like this exists.  I've asked the dealer and the mBrace info line, but apparently no one else has the same problem, which I find hard to believe.  In any case, I'd greatly appreciate any information or ideas you may have on the subject.

Chris Earnest
'65 Euro 230SL



enochbell

  • Guest
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 17:59:51 »
The solution people use in very sunny climates is ugly but effective: dash mats.  You can get custom or you can go way lo-tech with a simple gray cloth.  I don't know of any coating for either windshield or dash (unless you want to paint the dash flat black  :) )

http://www.autogeek.net/dashmat-dashboard-covers.html

g

hauser

  • Guest
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 18:10:52 »
Polarized sunglasses will take care of your problem. 

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5719
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 21:04:57 »
But I wear prescription glasses and don't want to constantly wear sunglasses.

So I am an expert on this, since the reflection in the windshield of my modern Volvo's really bothered me. I consulted the Volvo forums and settled on the one and only really effective solution: black dashpads. What a difference! Plus of course it protects your dash top. Not pretty but can prevent a bad accident, so ...
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7059
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 02:20:16 »
But I wear prescription glasses and don't want to constantly wear sunglasses.


Whatever works for you, but you can get flip up and clip on sunglasses to go over Rx glasses.  You are better protecting your eyes with UV and polarization.  I keep my sunglasses on a neck strap, like many sailors.  Dashboard glare?  It has never been an issue.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5719
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 05:06:00 »
Thank Michael - but, number one, I think those flip over sunglasses look tacky and living so close to Italy, we can't have that here. Number two - the glare is also there on overcast days, and driving with sunglasses on those days creates a different visibility hazard.
On the Volvo forums, opinions turned out to be split between "glare never bothers me" to "it does" so probably individual people's vision adapts better or worse to glare (like how some people see very poorly in the dark, as in 'night blind'). There are many car models where even though they have a light interior, the top of the dashboard is dark, indicating that some manufacturers (like BMW and Volkswagen) do take this issue seriously.
Again, for me the dash mats are the perfect solution and they really make a very big difference. Fortunately, my two older cars both have dark dashboards, so i't's not an issue there.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

gugel

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, CA, Rolling Hills Estates
  • Posts: 302
    • CPE Site
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 18:02:50 »
Thanks for the answers so far.  I'll give polarized sunglasses a try.  If that doesn't work, I'll spring for a dash mat.

Just to clarify:  my problem is not glare, it is reflection of the dashboard image in the windshield.  On a really bright day, driving in certain directions, I see that image more clearly than I see the road outside.  Incidentally, the same problem exists with the side windows -- when looking in the outside mirror, the reflection of the air conditioner outlet can appear very clearly in exactly the spot the mirror image should be.  Maybe if I were shorter?

66andBlue

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Solana Beach
  • Posts: 4735
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 23:23:34 »
Chris,
if see the image of the dash in the windshield then the the windshield acts as a mirror. This can happen when either the inside surface or the outside surface have a different refractive index from the center of the glass, that is, not as transparent, or are in plain German "schmutzig".
Fun aside, even with a new windshield you can have some mirror effect at certain angles but it should be very minimal.  If cleaning the windshield inside and out does not improve it then most likely the outside surface has become rough (micro pits) from all the particles it has encountered and there is not much you can do. 
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Benz Dr.

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7220
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 03:25:36 »
I find the reflection problem to be really bad on somev cars where the wood was coated with a material that's too shiny. This is a different problem but anything that's light in colour or is refelective to begin with becomes a real problem.
As already stated, even dirt on the inside of the windshield can make this worse. Maybe you need to buy a car with a darker interior next time. ;)
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5719
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2012, 04:31:30 »
I was also referring to reflection (not sure how that is different from 'glare'). Cleanliness does not seem to affect how bad it is in my cars.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7059
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2012, 17:13:50 »
This is actually quite an interesting topic.  If you go and research "glare" you'll find quite a lot on the subject, and how different people are affected differently by the different types of glare.

If you go to research "reflection of dashboards in windshields" you'll find quite a few discussions on many forums on the subject as well--it is an equal opportunity issue affecting many cars and many people in different ways.

This much is pretty well known--

dark dashboard material (i.e. a black dash or one with a dark dash mat) creates less of an issue than lighter, more reflective colors.
matte dashboard material (as opposed to Armor-All shiny) creates less of an issue than shiny, reflective surfaces.
Angle of dash and windscreen make a difference, as does angle of sun--even allowing for instances as Cees points out of having the issue on a flat-light overcast day.
Inside and outside cleanliness of windscreen makes a difference, too--film, dust, dirt, etc. on the windshield provides a projective surface.
Polarization helps big time.

To that last point, this morning I moved my daily driver out of the garage and checked for this reflection.  Sure enough, it was there, but it was predominantly in the lower part of the windshield, thus not too bothersome.  I looked through my polarized sunglasses, and voila, the reflection of the dash disappeared 100%.  To see the effect of the polarization, I removed the glasses, looked through them and rotated.  As the glasses rotated, so did the effect of the polarization and the reflection began to come  into view once again.  At 90 degrees of rotation, the reflection was back 100%, albeit damped by the darkness of the lens.  When the polarized sunglasses are at 0 degrees of rotation and manufactured properly, the reflection/glare is gone.

Plenty of answers, some easy, some not so easy.
Some don't want sunglasses--so polarization won't work.
Perhaps to some the only thing worse than "ugly" sunglasse styles would be a dash mat.  When I lived in California plenty of people had them to cover up cracked dashboards they did not want to replace...like the one I had on my old VW Golf.
The corrolary to that is having a dash mat will prevent the sun from cracking it in the first place!
Newer cars tend to have newer plastics and require almost religious and regular cleaning of the inside of the windscreen.  I do mine all the time, and am never satisfied.  I still get all kinds of streaks, and not convinced I've got it all clean.  I've tried everything.
As Alfred pointed out about hazed/pitted windshields, that's yet another issue and not everyone wants to invest in a new one!

Aside from all the technical solutions, there is the biggest and that is the human factor.  Some people's eyes are just way more sensitive to this interference in the visual path than others, and some are able to train their eye/brain to ignore it.  Personally I can ignore a lot of it, but what I cannot ignore is direct glare created in my eye.  It does not bother a lot of people but affects me daily in things like where I sit in a restaurant or at a table, pushing away direct light, etc.  I had to close the blinds in a restaurant on Friday night, and at home there are certain places I cannot sit at my tables just because of direct glare.  My family is not nearly as bothered.

As I said, a very interesting topic.  Now, I guess I have to clean my windshield AGAIN!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

gugel

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, CA, Rolling Hills Estates
  • Posts: 302
    • CPE Site
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2012, 17:44:02 »
Polarized sunglasses do reduce the windshield reflection quite a bit for me, but they don't make it disappear.  And as Cees points out, there are situations where one doesn't want to wear sunglasses, yet the reflection is quite bothersome.  This happens for me when driving through the woods on a bright day (e.g., CA route 32 between Chester and Chico).  With sunglasses, the dark areas become quite dark indeed, especially when one is in a sunny spot.  Finally, polarized sunglasses seem to make the numbers in the LCD displays harder to read.

I don't believe that dirt or micro pits is the problem in my case.  I think the bothersome reflection occurs because the light reflected upward from the dash (thence via the windshield, into my eyes) is just brighter than the light coming through the windshield from the road.  To see this effect, try just looking though a glass pane into a dark area -- you'll see yourself clearly.

Benz Dr is right -- I should have bought a car with a dark dash, as my last one had.  So I'm going to get a dash mat.

In combing the net, I discover that researchers actually have developed coatings to reduce or prevent reflections from glass, but AFAIK, none of these is commercially available as yet.  See for example

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2010/05/new-nanocoating-can-reduce-reflections-on-glass-and-prevent-scratches/ ,  or http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/glare-dust-and-fog-free-glass-0426.html , or
http://mashable.com/2012/04/28/glare-free-glass/

Chris

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7059
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2012, 20:17:52 »
Chris, I suspect that reality is you are especially sensitive to it and have a variety of conditions that exacerbate it.  That sunny day driving through the woods situation is one we all can appreciate.  That's really bad.

I bet you'll still see a some reflection of a black dash mat!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5719
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 23:59:21 »
I bet you'll still see a some reflection of a black dash mat!

Actually no, I was checking this as I drove some 180 miles today. There is a cut-out for the (light beige colored) dash speaker and where you can clearly see the speaker reflected in the windshield (impairing the view), the rest of the windshield seems perfectly transparent.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

gugel

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, CA, Rolling Hills Estates
  • Posts: 302
    • CPE Site
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2012, 23:55:01 »
I discovered that Pep Boys offers the suede DashMat for my car at $32.99 -- the same mat that lists for $49 plus $10 shipping on the DashMat site!  So I've ordered one, and will report how it works.

Chris

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7059
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2012, 10:57:58 »
Oh, my!  Original Dash Mat, Velour Dash Mat, Suede Dash Mat, Ltd. Edition Dash Mat, and Ulti-Mat.  That's 5 different mats to choose from, and just from one manufacturer!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

gugel

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, CA, Rolling Hills Estates
  • Posts: 302
    • CPE Site
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2012, 00:47:55 »
I discovered that Pep Boys offers the suede DashMat for my car at $32.99 -- the same mat that lists for $49 plus $10 shipping on the DashMat site!  So I've ordered one, and will report how it works.

Chris
Status report:  I've had the DashMat for a couple of months now, and am quite satisfied with it.  It was easy to install, fits well (see photo) and removes the reflections in the windshield when driving from light to dark areas.  Even when the light is consistent on a bright day it makes driving less fatiguing -- earlier, while I wasn't consciously aware of the reflection, it did create a kind of haze which is now absent.

Chris

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5719
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Dash reflection in windshield
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 20:42:03 »
Thanks for the update Chris.

And ...  Will bet you that you can now clearly see just that speaker in the windshield ... Illustrating the effect ...
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II