"Waterless" water in the cooling system.

[Paul99]

Having had the expensive result of lack of anti-freeze in my car, (cracked head and corrosion) i saw an advert for "waterless" water as a full replacment to reduce corrosion to zero.   Anyone used this stuff?  Does it work?

www.evanscooling.uk.com    http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/classic-cool-180.html

[mdsalemi]

Looks awfully expensive to me.  How about a good coolant, properly blended for your climate, and regular maintenance?

[DavidBrough]

I don't have any experience with this but agree with Michael, it does seem very expensive. From what I've read in the past it doesn't like mixing with any water so the system has to be completely dry, this is OK if the engine is out during a rebuild but virtually impossible if not.

[mdsalemi]

Anything like this sold commercially in the USA should have, by law, an MSDS data sheet.  MSDS=material safety data sheet.  Typically, these have the base compounds listed, so one can judge the relative safety of the product, along with other things.

Non-toxic anti freeze for example, has a habit of going acid over time w/o chemical buffers.  Over the years some antifreeze compounds have used methanol; highly flammable and burns with an invisible flame.  Not to say the Evans stuff is like this, but what is it?  Are they telling?  Is an MSDS sheet available?

Without more data I'd be hesitant to use it regardless of testimonials from Jay Leno or their website.

[Tomnistuff]

I read the site quickly and maybe I missed it, but I suspect it's plain old Propylene Glycol (current antifreeze is Ethylene Glycol).  The US auto industry considered it about 25 years ago because it's not poisonous (it's used to make food products like Hostess Twinkies).  It was abandoned but I can't remember why.

I would never trust a company who is afraid to tell you what's in their product.  It leads me to believe it's not patentable and easy to get without buying from them.

Tom Kizer

[Teeto]

Hi, I hope this doesn't count as spam - as an employee of Evans UK I can tell you that Evans Waterless Coolants are a patented blend of diols with a non-aqueous proprietary inhibitor package. One of my colleagues has a 250 SL which is running on Evans so if you have any questions I'd be more than happy to answer them.

[mdsalemi]

Hi, I hope this doesn't count as spam - as an employee of Evans UK I can tell you that Evans Waterless Coolants are a patented blend of diols with a non-aqueous proprietary inhibitor package. One of my colleagues has a 250 SL which is running on Evans so if you have any questions I'd be more than happy to answer them.

No, Teeto--it isn't spam.  But an MSDS data sheet would be helpful if you are trying to (nothing wrong with that, by the way...) convince a somewhat skeptical group that ~$45/gallon coolant is necessary.  PG "non-toxic, eco and safe" antifreeze compounds are not uncommon, and PG--propylene glycol and like "diols" (double alcohols) are commonly available all with negligible amounts of water, if you choose.

The question I have is the inhibitors: none last forever, though your base "diol" may.  I have 31 gallons of 45% EG concentration heat transfer fluid in my heated driveway; the fluid manufacturer will take a sample every few years, analyze the sample, and then prepare a package of new buffers and inhibitors to rejuvenate the installed system.  I'll drain a gallon, add the inhibitors, and pump it back into the system.  The heat transfer fluid, (does this sound familiar?) is a patented blend of EG with a proprietary inhibitor package.  The base heat transfer fluid lasts--the inhibitors don't.

People just want to know the facts.

http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/pdf_3415_3.pdf  From this we see that it is PG/EG blend with inhibitors.  I don't understand, necessarily, what the big deal is about.  I can buy both inhibited EG and PG coolants, if I chose, and mix them w/o water.  If you have anything "lifetime" your tendency is to forget about it, and that's not a great idea.  If you flush and fill your system every few years, you at least get in there and have a look-see at what is going on.  The lifetime oil fill on Mercedes transmissions was anything but...

BTW, no antifreeze is cheap anymore--so when I changed my radiator last year I recovered all but a couple of spilled ounces!  

If your system parts are in good shape and you have no leaks, you won't concern yourself with boiling points, and freeze points.

Patent info:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=Evans.ASNM.&OS=AN/Evans&RS=AN/Evans
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220040099839%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20040099839&RS=DN/20040099839
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220030071242%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20030071242&RS=DN/20030071242
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220020171063%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20020171063&RS=DN/20020171063
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220020020828%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20020020828&RS=DN/20020020828

[Teeto]

 With a system such as your driveway, it's fairly easy to manage the corrosion with inhibitors and monitor the fluid. Evans is an American company that we have recently formed a partnership with to manufacture the product in the U.K, the other side of our business is manufacturing heat transfer fluids for HVAC, RAC and renewable energy systems. It's quite possible we produced the fluid in your driveway!

I don't work in the lab or anything so I'm not really qualified to discuss the chemistry of why inhibitors degrade/ drop out of water solutions, there are many factors involved including the oxygen contyent etc. The Evans fluid doesn't contain oxygen and our American partners have conducted research with companies such as GM that have proved the inhibitors never need topping up. It probably helps that beacuse Evans doesn't cause corrosion far less inhibitors are needed in the first place. It's also worth noting that the inhibitor package in your driveway would be very different to the package in Evans.

The reason you wouldn't use Evans in your drive way or a HVAC system is beacuse the heat transfer properties of water are better than any other fluid at lower temperatures. Water, despite it's corrosive and electrolytic properties is simply more efficient at these temperatures, so it's worth the hassle of topping up from time to time. Within an engine where the coolant is expected to run at around 90⁰C the heat transfer capabilities of Evans become closer to that of water, still not quite as good, but very effective. Where Evans exceeds water is around engine hot spots, even though your temp gauge may read 90, the temp around the cylinder head and liner can be much, much higher. What should happen at these hot spots it called "efficient nucleate boiling", where bubbles form close to the hot metal which move away from the metal surface allowing the cooler liquid to flow into it's place. What often happens with water is it turns to localised pockets of steam which gets trapped against the metal surface, insulating it from the coolant. The heat transfer properties of steam are about 1/30th of that of water so the hot spots become hotter which can be very bad for the engine and cause problems such as pre-ignition.

From our experience with the product you may find the normal running temperature of the engine increases by a couple of degrees, but you'll struggle to get it to run any hotter than that. Many of the drivers who race with the product have found the car runs a little cooler and has a little more power due to the better combustion.

I'm not sure if I've answered your question or not, but I hope this helps

[mdsalemi]

My driveway heat transfer fluid was made by KOST USA in Cincinnati, Ohio, USA.  My driveway contains 2,000 feet of 5/8" PEX tubing, and about 20 feet of copper, and a small heat exchanger, stainless steel, in the heater.  It's not a fair comparison other than the degradation of inhibitors which happens in automotive applications as well as in others like the driveway.  It was never my intention to use Evans in my driveway (I've already invested in the 31 gallons of custom mix for this application, "lifetime").

I hear what you are saying, but pure PG antifreeze retails for less than $20/gal; pure EG for about half that, give or take.  So, I have a hard time "making the walk" to $40/gallon, considering the composition.  What you are saying about the Evans product would hold mostly true for pure, no water added glycol fluid blends.  When one buys this in automotive, it does contain inhibitors for the automotive metals and systems.  So how much better is Evans than pure Sierra PG, or any pure PG, or a home made mix of PG and EG automotive antifreeze with no water?

I would think moving to a pure glycol coolant like Evans or another would be best indicated on a "new" system, where don't have any corrosion in place, your radiator isn't plugged with gunk, and all your metal parts are in as new condition and you keep them that way--like after a fresh rebuild, and after the radiator is boiled out.

It is helpful that you participate here, and thank you for the comments.  Too often firms don't bother to tell us about their products and the only way we all learn is by an exchange of information.

[Teeto]

I didn't mean to suggest that you'd use evans in your driveway, merely trying to pint out that they were different systems that need to be treated differently.

I wouldn't recommend using neat glycol antifreeze in your engine, the package has been formulated to work as a water based solution. Even glycols can be corrosive under certain conditions, this is what makes our product different.

Putting the product in a brand new system is a great way of preserving it, but it works really well in old corroded systems as well. When the cooling jackets etc are corroded and scaled the heat transfer capability is reduced, we find a lot of customers buy evans to prevent overheating caused by corroded systems. It does solve a lot of problems for a lot of people, but obviously we'd like people to use it to stop their system getting like that in the first place.

[WRe]

Hello,
here a test report from an Evans competitor: http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm
....WRe