electronic ignition Crane vs. Pertronix

[enochbell]

My Crane finally quit on me (first time I needed a tow truck in 15 years, and boy was that embarrassing).  I replaced it with Pertronix and WOW what a difference.  I suspect the timing curve is different, because I get better low and mid-range torque.  No difference at high revs, but I am really happy with the new unit for real-world driving.  I know a lot of people complain about reliability of Crane, but mine gave me 12 years before failing, although now I wish I had gone with Pertronix from the get-go.

Best,
Greg

[mdsalemi]

Greg,

I was "converted" a few years back.  My Crane gave me 5 years.  It was a combo failure of Mechanic #1 installing the wrong size shutter wheel, and eventually the internal distributor wiring made contact. Nothing wrong with the box, however.

Pertronix fixed it all and it runs very smoothly today.  I did have to modify (per instructions) the pickup slightly; some grinding to get it to fit exactly.  Once in, it as run fine ever since.  My distributor is the -050.  Did yours go in with no problems?

[twistedtree]

With both the Crane and the Pertronix, I think the advance curve should come from the weights and diaphragm in the disti and shouldn't be influenced by the electronic ignition.  I think 123 is the only replacement that also contains/influences timing.

[Cees Klumper]

So my recommendation, having ran fully conventional ignition (rebuilt distributor), electronic ignition (luminition, it's like Pertronix) and the 123 (complete new distributor with  integrated electronics) is to go for the 123.

[enochbell]

Michael,

Mine dropped in with no filing, I have an early (but not earliest) 230sl, distributor 046.  And twistedtree, you are of course correct.  I just jumped to the conclusion that there was a difference in the curve because the power is so noticeably improved.  Now I have to assume it is the new coil and digital ignition that I paired with the new electronic ignition.  Just could't believe it could make that much of an improvement.  It literally feels like I added a couple of cylinders in the low-mid rev range.

Greg

[71Beige280SL]

I have had the 123 installed for 6 months. The car has never run better.

[mdsalemi]

There is general agreement that the 123 system is the best way to go, at the expense of (for what that's worth) originality, but changing from stock to anything else including Pertronix or Crane would violate originality anyway.

The 123 is pricey relative to a Pertronix or Crane, and they just don't always "drop in"; isn't there, on some cars, an issue with how it tightens or something?  Sometimes the Pertronix pickup will need filing (as it did on mine) and you should change the coil as they recommend, too.  The Crane needs a bit of work to mount it all.

123, Crane, or Pertronix howerver--when these are in and running well they make a marked improvement to these cars.

[Jkalplus1]

Michael,

Mine dropped in with no filing, I have an early (but not earliest) 230sl, distributor 046.  And twistedtree, you are of course correct.  I just jumped to the conclusion that there was a difference in the curve because the power is so noticeably improved.  Now I have to assume it is the new coil and digital ignition that I paired with the new electronic ignition.  Just could't believe it could make that much of an improvement.  It literally feels like I added a couple of cylinders in the low-mid rev range.

Greg

Hi Greg,

I have a similar car, and I have no instruments (light) for timing, and it is pretty much like black magic to me.  I had my mechanic time the car correctly, but I own a Pertronix unit.  Did you just drop it in and notice an improvement without touching the timing at all?

I want to drop it in, but am wary of going from a car that runs very well, to a car that won't start at all because I don't understand the voodoo of timing.  I am 100% comfortable with installing the Pertronix unit, just wondering if an already well-timed system will need re-tweaking after Pertronix install?
I'd really like a couple more cylinders in the low-mid power band!
As for concours judging and originality, I have yet to see a judge who will pull a distributor cap to see the points?  Maybe they do that in the big american shows, I have not seen it done here...

[twistedtree]

You will need to reset timing after installing any of the electronic ignition systems.  But once set, you shouldn't have to touch it again unless you take things apart.  With no points to wear, the timing doesn't drift over time as it does with conventional points.  And it makes a "tune-up" a simple matter of replacing plugs, cap and rotor with no adjustments required - and those parts will require replacement less frequently to boot.  I agree that it's one of the easiest and most beneficial changes you can make to any car with conventional points.

[Jkalplus1]

Code: [Select]

Sometimes the Pertronix pickup will need filing (as it did on mine) and you should change the coil as they recommend, too.  

Mike, if it works with your normal coil, why change to the Pertronix coil?  Apologies if this is a very pedestrian question everyone already knows the answer to...I'd like the original look as much as possible...perhaps "disguise" the Pertronix coil with paint?

[Jkalplus1]

You will need to reset timing after installing any of the electronic ignition systems.  But once set, you shouldn't have to touch it again unless you take things apart.  With no points to wear, the timing doesn't drift over time as it does with conventional points.  And it makes a "tune-up" a simple matter of replacing plugs, cap and rotor with no adjustments required - and those parts will require replacement less frequently to boot.  I agree that it's one of the easiest and most beneficial changes you can make to any car with conventional points.

That's what I thought, I am wondering if there is a way of knowing whether the car will start if I just drop it in so I can drive it to a mechanic who will time it again, instead of putting the Pertronix in to find out I will need to get the car towed to a garage, you know what I mean?

I guess my answer is "don't mess with something that works", and next time I get it timed take the Pertronix to the garage and have them install it.  Or buy a lamp and learn how to time the car myself.  If I understand the instruction well, the Pertronix takes the "dwell" part of timing out of the equation, so I should be allright learning the timing procedure for 3000RPM where vacuum considerations become irrelevant, right?  Black magic, black magic...

[enochbell]

Timing is relatively easy with a good strobe, would suggest as have others that you clean and paint (white) the timing marks.  Otherwise, even with a really good light, I found them difficult to pick up.  But I don't want my first post to mislead.  As twistedtree pointed out, the timing curves are created by mechanical elements and vacuum, and not changed from Crane to Petronix.  So my improved performance is probably not coming from the changeover of electronic ignition alone.  It is probably the digital ignition controller and coil (both MSD) that I paired with the electronic ignition.  Who knows, maybe I had really weak coil that needed replacement anyway. And Michael, sorry, the coil would definitely get points taken away, it stands out and bothers me even though I will never show my car.  The controller is hidden on the bottom of the battery tray.
Best,
Greg

[Benz Dr.]

I bet my 300SE dual point distributor works just as well as any modern unit. With a 52 degree dwell angle it throws a monster spark.

I did a 407 mile trip over the weekend and I saw 28.3 MPG ( imperial ) with engine speeds at or below 3,000.

[mdsalemi]

Mike, if it works with your normal coil, why change to the Pertronix coil?  Apologies if this is a very pedestrian question everyone already knows the answer to...I'd like the original look as much as possible...perhaps "disguise" the Pertronix coil with paint?

Quite simple: higher voltage, better spark.  The Pertronix coil, by the way, comes in two varieties--a plain black one for older cars like mine, or some flashy chrome version. I chose the former of course,  for a more classic look.  No paint necesssary!

You are correct--the Pertronix will  work with your  regular coil. With the higher voltage coil, you get a more  powerfull  spark, and can open up the plug gaps for a bigger  spark.  They make a recommendation, but I think I've opened up my BP6ES by ~4/1000.  I have a very smooth idle and very smooth acceleration, too.

From the Pertronix website: Available chrome plated or black for that "stock look".

[enochbell]

Thanks Michael, I did not know Pertronix made a "camo" coil.  I bought the bright orange (yikes) MSD, because I bought the MSD controller.  I will think about swapping it out.

Dan, someone who knows there way around these cars the way you do could probably run them on a magneto and tune it entirely by ear!  Seriously, I remember as a teenager using a matchbook cover to set the gap on my '67 beetle.  That's why I went into healthcare and you went into cars (among other things).  Thanks for all your help through the years.

Best,
Greg

[mdsalemi]

I bet my 300SE dual point distributor works just as well as any modern unit. With a 52 degree dwell angle it throws a monster spark.

I did a 407 mile trip over the weekend and I saw 28.3 MPG ( imperial ) with engine speeds at or below 3,000.

By very definition, your dual point distributor is an advantage over the single point--and everything you say it is.  The advantages are well known and defined: longer point life, sharing of the contact's load, bigger spark, etc. Just like a very simple and modern Pertronix. Most of us wouldn't know where to begin to find a rare 300SE distributor (except eBay), much less properly install it and tune it all up.  That's your skill set.  My Pertronix cost about $83, the coil about $30.  Neither has been touched in 5 years, and the distributor cap has not even been off since then.  I think for most of us, this is a more reasonable way to go.

By the way, the going price on eBay for a dual point Bosch distributor ex-300SE is about USD $350...that buys a Pertronix set; a spare set to have in your trunk; a distributor rebuild (from you or Glenn Ring), and change in your pocket. 

[Naj ✝︎]

  Neither has been touched in 5 years, and the distributor cap has not even been off since then.

Michael,

This is bad practice.
The felt pad under the rotor and and the little oiler on the side of the distributor do need lub.

Used 051 distributors are getting a bit thin on the ground  :'( :'(

Naj

[mdsalemi]

The felt pad under the rotor and and the little oiler on the side of the distributor do need lub.

Thanks for the heads up, Naj. Every year I do some things that need attention, and I'll get to this.  The distributor was rebuilt prior to the Pertronix being installed.  It has not screamed for any attention yet. Probably time to change the plugs, too.

When the time comes, and the 051 gives it up, I'll probably just get a 123.  For now it seems just dandy.

[Tomnistuff]

Benz Dr, what you say about your dual point distributor is true, however, it does get a little bit tedious if you have to synchronize the points in addition to setting gap.  I always found that the best way to set up the distributor points on a dual point distributor was to remove the distributor, make a simple protractor to place between the rotor and the body, replace the rotor with a bent coat hanger wire, then using a "continuity light" check and adjust the exact timing and dwell angle of both sets of points.  Synchronization and timing really became "hell" on the old 12 cylinder dual point, dual distributor designs.  How do you synchronize points on yours?

Pertronix tempts me with the "install and forget it" maintenance requirement, so it's a part of my restoration.

Tom Kizer

[Benz Dr.]

Benz Dr, what you say about your dual point distributor is true, however, it does get a little bit tedious if you have to synchronize the points in addition to setting gap.  I always found that the best way to set up the distributor points on a dual point distributor was to remove the distributor, make a simple protractor to place between the rotor and the body, replace the rotor with a bent coat hanger wire, then using a "continuity light" check and adjust the exact timing and dwell angle of both sets of points.  Synchronization and timing really became "hell" on the old 12 cylinder dual point, dual distributor designs.  How do you synchronize points on yours?

Pertronix tempts me with the "install and forget it" maintenance requirement, so it's a part of my restoration.

I paid 75 bucks for the 300SE distributor but that was a long time ago. My idea was to have everything vintage from 1971 or earlier whith the idea that someone could have figured all, of this stuff out back then and developed the same or similar to what I have today. It's what I like to call '' vintage modified. '' I have a distributor tester so seting up a dual point unit isn't that difficult - I don't know how you would do this job any better.

The 300SE unit is very high tech for that time period. It has two sets of points placed at 180 degrees opposite from each other. One set has a small cam which will move that set so that you can get the point of fire exactly 60 degrees apart.
 You need to set the dwell angle on each set of points to 26 degrees which, when added together, will give you a total of 52 degrees. Once you have both sets adjusted correctly, then you can adjust the point of fire to 60 degrees. After this adjustment has been made it should never need to be changed again. The point plate sits on four ball bearings rather than two plates rubbing against each other. This gives a very smooth advance curve.
Each set of points fires 3 cylinders in alternate groups - 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 but the whole system is fired by one coil. With this distributor, each set of points only opens half as often as a regular 051 so they last twice as long. Last time I changed the points was 5 years ago. Last time I changed plugs was probably 10 years ago.
I adjused the distirbutor to give 30 degrees total advancve and my full advance to 38 degrees - the engine pulls hard in all five gears. I can leave it in 5th gear running about 30 MH and it will accelerate up to 5, 000 RPM if I wanted to have the car impounded. 30MPH over the speed limit and they take your car and it's a 10K fine!  5,000 RPM would be somewhere in the 100 MPH range. The car will do close to 130 MPH.

[mdsalemi]

You need to set the dwell angle on each set of points to 26 degrees which, when added together, will give you a total of 52 degrees.
Each set of points fires 3 cylinders in alternate groups - 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 but the whole system is fired by one coil.

Dan, can you explain that again?  I don't understand.  In a Mallory dual point distributor, one set of points makes the contact, the other set breaks.  In this case, the "adding of the dwell" makes sense.  You said in the 300SE, one set of points fires 3 cylinders, and the other set the other 3?  In this case, unless my understanding is somehow incorrect, I don't see how you would add the dwells.  It sounds from your description as if you almost have two separate distributors operating on the same shaft. In this case the dwell for 1-3-5 would be set independently from the dwell for 2-4-6.  I don't get the adding of the dwell.  What am I missing here?

[Benz Dr.]

Dan, can you explain that again?  I don't understand.  In a Mallory dual point distributor, one set of points makes the contact, the other set breaks.  In this case, the "adding of the dwell" makes sense.  You said in the 300SE, one set of points fires 3 cylinders, and the other set the other 3?  In this case, unless my understanding is somehow incorrect, I don't see how you would add the dwells.  It sounds from your description as if you almost have two separate distributors operating on the same shaft. In this case the dwell for 1-3-5 would be set independently from the dwell for 2-4-6.  I don't get the adding of the dwell.  What am I missing here?

I forgot to explain something that makes all of this possible. This distributor only has 3 lobes on the cam. When I run it on my tester each set of points fires on three positions of the protractor. I set each set by dwell angle first by placing a piece of paper between one set while I'm testing the other. Once I have both sets at exactly 26 degrees, the two running topgether will create 52 degrees overall. This is because both sets are opened at the same time between each firing ceating more time for the coil to saturate.
The 300SL is even more unique in that it has two coils and two coil towers on the cap. In this case, each set of points fires each coil seperately and each coil runs three spark plugs. This unit has a 41 degree dwell angle for each set of points which creates 82 degrees of dwell. The points in a 300SL are short and open and close very quickly due to the profile on the cam.
 It's kind of hard to explain but it would appear that it has something to do with where the fulcrum of the points are placed. The closer to the cam lobes the more dwell angle you get. The further away from the cam the less dwell anglel you get. A 051 runs at about 38 degrees while a 062 runs around 30 degrees. The points are made differently which has to affect how it works.
Of course, the more cylinders you have, the lower the dwell angle. In this case I'm talking only about 6 cylinder engines. The only difference being the type of distributor used. If two different single point units can have 38 and 30 degrees of dwell and two different dual point units can have 52 and 82 degress it can only be due to design. The profile of the cam lobes will also affect this as they are clearly different on each model of distributor.     

[lurtch]

Very recently, the  Pertronics unit I installed in my 230SL failed after about 5,000 miles. I was on a long road trip and began to experience some random misfiring. This got progressively worse and I had to limp along the shoulder of the freeway for nine miles running on three/four cylinders. The shop foreman who replaced it with breaker points, told me "Pertronics makes junk". He further said that  he used to do installs of these units at his shop but stopped because of the high rate of failure.

Larry in CA

[mdsalemi]

I forgot to explain something that makes all of this possible. This distributor only has 3 lobes on the cam. When I run it on my tester each set of points fires on three positions of the protractor.

AHA!  THAT makes a lot more sense now. Without that tidbit, the unanointed like me, would have assumed a 6-lobe cam.  Thanks for clarifying.

Lurtch, a failure is a failure, and there are a lot of people out there who have had points fall apart in less than 5,000 miles; that doesn't make them "junk".  Sometimes electronics fail right out of the box, sometimes they last forever. At $89 for the Pertronix set up, a complete spare kit in the trunk of your car is wise insurance; and costs less than a tow, or probably your mechanic's bill for removing it and installing points. Had you had a spare set, you could have replaced it in less time than the delay in limping to your mechanic on 3 cylinders!  My Crane lasted 5 years, and only the mechanic's failure to install it properly caused an issue.  I would not call it junk.

You can tell your mechanic that with this "junk" my car has been running dandy for 5 years.  Granted I don't put a lot of miles on the car--probably about 5-6K in that time. I would hazard a guess that there is more good luck with Pertronix than bad. Our friend theengineer, as I recall, tried Pertronix and couldn't get a smooth idle. Some have lamented here on this site, about the downgrade in quality of Bosch points as they went offshore. There are some who have not had the greatest luck with the 123 system. You experiment, and do what works for you, and what you feel comfortable with. Lurtch, aside from the failure, how did your car run with the Pertronix?  Better, worse, or the same as the points it replaced? I keep a spare set of everything I can particularly on road trips--even points!  Electronics fail mostly from heat, and we have a hot car.

Today, thanks to Naj's reminder, I will pull the dis cap off and check those lube points!

For our UK friends: http://www.h-h-ignitionsolutions.co.uk

[Jkalplus1]

Would you recommend the Flamethrower over the Bosch red coil?