The Myth of Superior German Engineering

[twistedtree]

Ok, I'll likely get slaughtered for this and have to watch my back at the 50th anniversary, but here goes.....

(Author's note:  For some reason the site is censoring "Wankel".  I'm talking about rotary engines.)

I think this whole notion that German engineering is so superior is a myth.  Not that German engineering is bad.  It's not bad at all.  It's actually pretty good.  But I think there are lots of examples of engineering that is just as good, and in many ways better.  I just object to this blind, almost religious assertion that it tops all other engineering.

This really struck me when reading the latest Star Magazine from MBCA.  There was a very interesting article about MB's work on developing a commercial use for the Wankel engine.  Much of the discussion focused on the technical challenges posed by the Wankel design, namely combustion chamber sealing, wear of those seals, poor fuel mileage, and correspondingly poor emissions.  But the tone of the article was about how the brilliant MB engineers conquered the problem one by one, built prototype cars, and were ready to go until the big bad EPA came along and set emissions standards.  The challenges of meeting ever mounting standards, plus unproven reliability cause them to drop the project.

But wait a minute, Mazda is the company to actually brought a Wankel to market where MB gave up.  Mazda met the emissions requirements back in the 60's and 70', and continued to meet them right up to this year.  Mazda solved the various combustion chamber seal problems, though I think it was a bumpy road early on.  But they did it.  Mazda clearly gets the Gold Metal, and nobody gets the Silver or Bronze because all the others dropped out.

On our cars, there are a lot of things that strike me as overly complicated and difficult to work on.  I've just been reading ncsurfer's thread on removing the AC bracket to access bolts to change the water pump.  A water pump is an expected wear item and should be replaceable with minimal fuss.  Yes, AC was all dealer installed, but the engineering of the kits could have been a lot better.

The front suspension also seems overly complicated.  Other cars of the vintage have rubber bushings in place of the various screw caps, require no grease, and eliminate the need for the front frame rubber mounts which are problematic.  Also, many other cars of the time had already dumped king pins and gone to ball joints which are another huge improvement.

Good luck changing the battery on a 280.  You either need to brute force the battery into place, or disconnect the oil cooler line, and brute forcing an electro-chemical bomb like a battery isn't a good idea.

Anyway, the point is not to slam MB or German engineering, but rather to bring some objectivity to it all, and to recognize some of the things that others have done better.  I can't help but admire the elegant simplicity of my '71 Volvo.  It's not as sophisticated in many ways as the MB, but it's light years ahead of the American hay wagons of the time.  Any what a joy to work on.

OK, I've now donned by asbestos shorts and am ready to press "post".  Here goes.....

[Flyair]

Peter,
while I can agree that from today's perspective certain technical solutions in our cars may sam overly-engineered and difficult to deal with, especially for contemporaneous mechanicians that are rather "plug-and-play" fixers.
From my point of view, I am just adumbrative of workmanship and technological achievements from an era that had no CAD system to conceive cars or other products and where intuition worked along good taste and solid technical background.

By the way, some of the info you pas on the Wankel engine (and you are right: no idea  it is censored??? here) is inaccurate:
The first car maker that commercialized cars with this engine was NSU (K70 and K80), then becoming part of Audi and today VW. Mazda was second, but continued to offer that engine for much longer.
US producers also got their chance, as they bought the license from Felix Wankel (GM AMC, Chrysler etc as well Curtiss-Wright in the aviation sector), but they abandoned that….

No offense, but I think that US industry owes a lot to German engineers that were kindly invited to work for the US economy following 1945…. so there is no point to compare too much, as often it is just the same origin...

Otherwise I wish you all the best with the water pump and other challenges  

We all get desperate at moments. Pagoda is a demanding love, and sometimes I think a life addiction  

[Raymond]

No sense blasting a well-reasoned position.  I have alternately praised and cursed the builders of german cars while I was under them with a wrench.  We have a VW, a BMW, and the Pagoda.  We also have a Nissan pick-up truck, and a Ford van.  I have driven and amateur raced Hondas and back in high school, hot rodded a few Chevys and a Dodge.  Not that any of that makes me an expert, but through this variety of cars made from 1955 to 2000, I have found the German engineering to be generally more creative in finding mechanical systems that work well and remain dependable longer.  There is no question that the quality of the materials, machining and build in the German cars is superior on every level.  So when people blanketly say "German engineering is better", you have to realize that what they really mean is that the sum combination of design and build quality is a better equation than companies from other countries have ever sustained.

[ja17]

Hello,
One cannot really make an all-inclusive general statement "best engineering in the world". Germany was one of the first nations to industrialize  and I am sure everyone will agree that German engineering and engineers are among the best and most innovative in the world.

Just like everything else some things can be the best and others are not. You have to look at longevity, visual design,  complexity, craftsmanship, quality of materials and parts, cost of ownership, performance and even simplicity.  In addition every person will use his or her own "yardstick" to measure "best".  One person may be most concerned with cost of ownership, while another person's biggest concern may be longevity or safety. In this respect one person's best may not fit the criteria for another person's best.

I like Mercedes automobiles as the are well engineered, designed to last, the quality of the parts and materials is excellent, they are pleasing to look at, they are safer than most,  are  pleasure to drive, and can offer good performance. They are not the least expensive to own,  they can be complex and may not always  have the visual impact of a Lamborghini or the performance of a Ferrari .  

It's a great free world where we have all this diversity and can choose our own "best".

[glenn]

I'm down here in NASCAR territory, and----.    And they tell me all innovations came from them there guys.   And they never heard of Jirminee. 


Ray, down in Florida, solved the battery problem.  Two 6 volters in the trunk on the ledge.

[jameshoward]

It's a great free world where we have all this diversity and can choose our own "best".

Amen to that statement. There are plenty of folk on this planet who can't.

[mdsalemi]

The lines of engineering are blurring.

The other day I was in for a business appointment at Bosch.  We all know Bosch, as no Mercedes has ever run without them: they pump the fuel, they light the spark, right?  Anyway, Bosch manufactures quite a bit, and engineers quite a bit right here in the USA with good old American engineers.  Many of those American engineers don't speak English too well, as they are from India.  Or China.. .  Some of their products are American born and bred and end up on German cars...

Some higher end American cars use a lot of non-USA engineered parts.  Brembo brakes from Italy on a Cadillac for instance.

No longer will you find a FoMoCo or Philco "radio" in a Ford; many contain Sony, engineered and made in Japan.  Or Bose.

The automakers--all of them--decided to shed parts manufacturing over the years, and that's how firms like Visteon now compete with Bosch, and Bosch competes with Denso.  That's why American cars have Yazaki wiring systems, Bosch fuel systems, and Lear makes everyone's seats...er "seating systems"...in over 200 global locations!

It's all a blur these days, and one reason why the general consensus of the automotive press is there really are not any bad cars anymore, at least in the North American market.  You may not like all of them, or they may not fit your needs (we have people buying Smart cars who live next door to people with F350 trucks, both as daily drivers) but gone are the days of the Yugo and LeCar, and Pinto and Vega.

[Flyair]

the very politically incorrect saying reminds us that :

(slightly modified)

In a perfect world:
The British are the police.
Italians are the lovers.
The French are the cooks.
The Polish are the soldiers
Germans are the engineers.
And, Americans are the entrepreneurs.

In hell:
The British are the cooks.
Italians are the engineers
The French are the soldiers.
The Polish are the entrepreneurs
Germans are the police.
And, Americans are the lovers.

 

[rmmchl]

Superior German Engineering?    Most of us who have replaced, and dissasembled or removed the heater valve, heater core, and heater controls from our w113's, could really put a spin on the term, "superior german engineering" It is what it is. I respect the engineering on our cars. We all know that at times they were over-engineered.  I just don't like it much, when some people try to put down American engineering as something less than others. Remember that our Mercedes cost more than a Corvette at the time they were sold . My 1967 mercedes 250sl was $7200.00 new, when a new vette was $3800.00. Most  Americans could not afford the cost of a new Mercedes. American made cars, were constructed to be more affordable. We can't expect the quality to be the same as a car that costs twice as much. A Lincoln or new Cadillac was available for those with deeper pockets., and in my opinion they competed, or were better than German cars. I can assure you that the ride was better in a Lincoln or Cadillac.  We sent a man to the moon in 1969, so indeed we had a good handle on engineering. It all comes down to the cost of production. Our Mercedes are very well built vehicles. They were a cut above, and we paid the price for that quality.

[Paul & Dolly]

...."sent a man to the moon in 1969".......

did not a certain Wernher von Braun  and his "rocket team" not provide a little help there ?

The great thing about 60s German Engineering is that it always involved planning for the bigger picture and longer term future,
something the Japanese (and now Koreans) picked up on to great affect.

Many of the Italian, French, British and American designs of the 60s were in my opinion much  "shorter" term efforts.

Paul

[ja17]

I replaced some front wheel hub assemblies on a newer Mercedes. They came from the dealer and were in original un-opened factory packaging.
The wheel bearings in these hubs were marked "made in Japan".   

[Ulf]

I read a story once about a guy restoring a surviving example of the (in-)famous Messerschmitt bf 109 fighter plane from WWII, an engineer from Rolls Royce said that the manufacturing tolerances of its Daimler Benz DB601 engine were so precise that they were hard to replicate even today with modern tools, laser precision measurement etc. No doubt that the Germans were and still are an ingenious people both in terms of innovation and manufacture of quality. Our cars is a testament to that as they are still on the road, probably with a lot more original parts than their contemporaries from the UK, US or Italy. But there is a downside to this - complication, I could easily fix my Triumph TR6 or my MGA even though I'm an idiot with a wrench, but I'm not at all confident enough to fiddle with my SL beyond the basic oil- and filter changes - even after 5 years of ownership. On the other hand (again), there is rarely much that needs fixing - knock on wood :-)
In terms of the reliability of contemporary German cars, they probably still benefit from the myth of German engineering as I think it was the Toyota Avensis that have won the German TÜV analysis for best reliability/fewest faults with Mercedes, BMW and Audi quite a bit down the list. But with the risk of offending the Toyota owners present here, an Avensis (might be called something else in the US) doesn't really provide the same feelings as a Merc or BMW :-)
Here in Copenhagen most taxis brand the three-pointed star on the hood, but most taxi drivers will tell you that the last really great and reliable Mercedes was the W124 series of the 80's and 90's when the cars were still built to meet an engineering standard rather than a price - the later W210 were plagued by severe rust and the even later W211 by a lot of electrical faults. When I drive my daily driver - a 1984 W123 - around town I sometimes have little "how-many-other-cars-from-1984-or-before-can-I-spot?" contest with myself and unless I come by another Mercedes, BMW or the occasional Volvo, I win most days ;-)

[Ulf]

Forgot to include this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFAeBb2QvYU

[mdsalemi]

an engineer from Rolls Royce said that the manufacturing tolerances of its Daimler Benz DB601 engine were so precise that they were hard to replicate...

Well, consider the source!  A Rolls-Royce engineer.  Yeah, they came out with the "Merlin" in 1933, but it was vastly improved when Americanized by Packard; at least that's the general consensus.  Some years ago I spoke with a guy at Roush Industries here in Michigan that rebuilds both RR-Merlin and Packard Merlin engines, and they sometimes couldn't believe how much better the Packards were.  So?  What happened?  Where's Packard?  In the graveyard of long-gone automotive companies.  Takes more than good engineering to survive.

[Cees Klumper]

Well, consider the source!  A Rolls-Royce engineer.  Yeah, they came out with the "Merlin" in 1933, but it was vastly improved when Americanized by Packard; at least that's the general consensus.  Some years ago I spoke with a guy at Roush Industries here in Michigan that rebuilds both RR-Merlin and Packard Merlin engines, and they sometimes couldn't believe how much better the Packards were.  So?  What happened?  Where's Packard?  In the graveyard of long-gone automotive companies.  Takes more than good engineering to survive.

And RR is now, I believe, ... German?

[JamesL]

Cees

The cars are BMWs, the aero engines are separate I think

[Ulf]

Exactly my point Michael, the perceived brand values have a lot to say - same goes with the perception of German engineering that still lives on to this very day, be it a fair perception or not.
Regarding the RR Merlin, I think I read somewhere that it was actually the engineers at RR that chose Packard as their licensed US manufacturer based on their sublime engineering standards, sad that such companies lose out to others that can produce c*** cheaper and persuade people to buy it :-)
@Cees - you've got a point there, but while the RR engines are BMW, the craftsmanship and traditions that goes into the assembly are very British indeed ;-)
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMHiAd0eRsg

Ulf

[mdsalemi]

I think I read somewhere that it was actually the engineers at RR that chose Packard as their licensed US manufacturer based on their sublime engineering standards, sad that such companies lose out to others that can produce c*** cheaper and persuade people to buy it :-)

Ulf, when they needed it the most, the Brits had little capability of mass production of the scale needed...and good old Henry Ford wanted to mass produce the Merlin.  However, he mandated (the nerve!) that the engines he built could ONLY be used for defensive purposes.  Of course this was all before Pearl Harbor and full US involvement in the war.  Ford was [properly so] dismissed and booted by the War Department. Packard imposed no such nonsense and impressed both RR and the War Department, and the rest is history.  Henry went on to mass produce the B24 quite successfully, just a few miles down the road from me.  I have a well treasured award from a car show which is an NOS old Packard piston mounted on a piece of old-growth, quarter-sawn oak paneling taken from the old Packard corporate offices, also just a few miles from here. So much history on this little trophy!  http://authenticpackard.com

And, for those interested, the DB601 was a "hot" engine.  You know how "hot" cams make a powerful engine, but one that can't idle worth a darn?  That's why "race" cars are not that streetable.  The DB601 was like that...so bad at low speed it had a separate induction system so it could run well when not at WOT.  One HOT engine!

[Benz Dr.]

That car show wouldn't happen to be the '' Carnival of Cars '' would it?


  If you want to see German engineering at its best you need to study the 600. Very complicated but very high end at the same time.

[Benz Dr.]

Durning the war in north Africa, one of the biggest problems the Gernmans encountered was fine dust that got into moving parts with very fine tolerances. Most of these problems were unable to be field repaired in such a dirty environment which sometimes caused a shortage of working aircraft. 

[Ulf]

@Benz Dr - true, same happened to their tanks (Tigers vs. Russian T34s) so one could argue that while German engineering might have been technically superior, the real power lay in the ability to mass-produce simpler, more rugged machinery with easier maintenance in the field. Luckily, the nazi regime didn't have the capability (or raw materials) to mass-produce their best inventions (e.g. jet fighters, ballistic- and guided missiles, night vision sights and the assault rifle) in sufficient numbers to influence the outcome of WW2. But it is a tribute to German engineering and innovation that both the Americans, Russians and the British were so eager to round up all pieces of German high-technology and the people behind them in the months following the war (Operation Paperclip) in order to boost their own technological level.

[Flyair]

One think that can be said is that Twistedtree is good at picking solid/controversial topics. I have not seen such engaged responses at this site for quite a long time… 

 

[Benz Dr.]

One think that can be said is that Twistedtree is good at picking solid/controversial topics. I have not seen such engaged responses at this site for quite a long time… 

 

   You need to go to some other MB related sites and find their open discussion forums for some really heated debates. Not unusual to go 20 + pages.

[Cees Klumper]

Just read a thread on a Dutch motorcycle forum that went on for pages and pages and pages, about whether slower motorcycle riders should move over while passing in between rows of cars sitting in a traffic jam, for faster motorcycle riders (the speed difference would be small, mind you).  That particular forum has 144,000 registered users, 331,000 topics with 24 million (!) posts. Holland has 600,000 motorcycles and 17 million citizens, so pretty tiny, but they are able to 'talk' almost indefinitely and quite passionately about pretty minor stuff.

[Benz Dr.]

The Dutch can can argue a point for that long!

  No way. I refuse to believe it.........