I need help. I don't know whether to sell car or push into ocean & sell parts

[swampdog]

I need help.  I don't know what to do next.  I was told this forum is the experts and would know what I should do.  I have a 230SL ground-up restoration on the home stretch that got derailed due to stolen gas tank and mis-welded quarter panel.  I have since gotten a new gas tank but the 1/4 panel is still welded on crooked and the project is covered in 17 years of dust.  I have an attic full of new parts.  It's time to cut my losses and move on.  Here's the full story.

I bought a 1967 230SL european left hand drive in 1989 for restoration.  I have a clear georgia title but it has not been registered since I movbed to florida in 1994.

As I was dismantling the car at start of project, I came across a very good buy on sheetmetal - $1200 for two new fenders, two new quarter panels, two headlight cans, and a nose bridge.  So I went ahead and cut off the old sheetmetal put the car on a giant rotisierre and sandblasted the unibody frame.  I did the hood, doors, and decklid myself with a 5hp compressor running lower pressure to avoid warping.  The original body did not have any bondo indicating wrecks or dings.  It had lead in the weld seams but was otherwise just old metal with some rusting in the splashwells and in the space between rocker panel and unibody frame.

The blasted unibody was etched, shot with black epoxy primer, and undercoated.  Transmission tunnel
and underneath sides fender/quarter were painted with standard PPG AE paint in the orginal tan color.  The engine and injector pump was rebuilt in Atlanta by some guy called Ron who did the work for Bud's Benz.  The rebuilt drivetrain, suspension, and brakes were installed sans plumbing, radiators, electrical, and master cylinders.  The 4 spd transmission was not rebuilt.  New clutch components were used.  The differential was not rebuilt either.  I can't remember if I put in new u-joints or not.  The brake hydraulics are plugged at end of flexible hose and the engine openings are taped over.  The interior is 100% bare.

The car was sent to atlanta st. welding to have panels welded back on, the gas tank and hardtop frame were sent to a dip-n-strip specializing in old cars, and the seats were sent to buds benz for new padding and burgundy leather.  Enough leather was acquired to refinsh all panels.  By that time I had also collected nearly all the parts needed such as new rubber, new lighting, new carpet, new top, exterior chrome, alloy wheels, front wiring harness with fuse box(the old one showed signs of heat damage on alternator wire).  New interior panels were acquired but not yet covered with matching leather.  

The list of open issues was very small.  The interior chrome needed refinishing, the speedometer needed replacing (it was metric without any Mph), needed to buy an electric fuel pump, hardtop frame had some rust-through spots at base, dash wood needed replace or new veneer, needed to find better looking heater knobs, new door lockset needed rekeying to match existing, new heater valve.  The car came with two steering wheels.  A wooden one installed and the original plastic one in a box.  If i wanted to use the big plastic steering wheel then I needed to fix the horn switch.  

I was on the home stretch get car from welder, install gas tank, body prep, paint, electric, plumbing, interior, trim.  I found a shop in south atlanta that was going to do all the interior chrome on hourly rate and was going to just hand them the 30Lb bucket of parts interior parts.  

That's when things went wrong.  Somebody stole the gas tank from dip-n-strip and the drivers side quarter panel is welded on wrong.  The opening for deck lid is 1/4" too narrow at back.  I was out of time and had to start packing for a move to Florida.  I have since acquired a good gas tank.  Otherwise  nothing else has been done.  The boxes have shuffled through three house without being opened and now sit in the attic - still unopened.  One of the seasts got damaged in moving and the leather shows a 6" scar where the dermis fibers can be seen below.

So that's the life story and current condition of car.  I was never building the car for collecting or showing.  The car was being built to be a brand new car and put on the road for 100,000 miles or more.  It was to be an everyday car that never needed anything more than routine maintenance.  

I can't finish this car.  It will make me remember a pair of frame up Datsun roadster convertibles that a friend and I restored in college.  I still deeply regret selling my 2000 solex.  Best car I ever owned.  I go misty eyed just thinking about it.  I'll never live with myself if I finish this car and then sell it off.  I need to either sell it as an unfinished project  or part it out.

What would you do?

[Ulf]

If it comes down to money, it's probably worth more in parts than as a complete restoration project, but then again you'll have the hassle of selling all the little items one by one on eBay with shipping etc. rather than getting rid of the whole lot in one go...
It seems like the only two things that are wrong are some welding and the tear in the seat, is that really enough to put you completely off a full restoration? I know that there are probably a lot of other factors that come into play here, but you might start to love the car again once you start fiddling and see progress. If you have held onto the car for 23 years and moved the parts 3 times, you must be emotionally attached to it somehow ;-)

Best wishes

Ulf

[Garry]

Sell it complete as Ulf said the time and effort in selling it as parts is great and if you don't have the time to put it all back together then you wont have the time to sell all the parts either and it will be come a burden with time and effort.

[Flyair]

Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind having a problem like that. it seems to me that you are 99% done with the restoration and two important, but eventually minor issues hold you off from getting things done.
by the fact of describing your story in such a complete and detailed way you give a proof that this is an emotional question for you and that your Pagoda is part of your household, if not your family .
I hope that soon you will share with us some pictures of your shiny Pagoda reborn from ashes, or at least reborn from dusts

[w113dude]

As it's been said, it's a money issue selling the whole car is a lot easier than parting in addition will take much longer, the choices are fast selling as a whole project for less or parting out for a bit more and but will take longer.

Either way good luck.

[mdsalemi]

Swamp,

Is money an issue?  It isn't always.  While many of us are not that wealthy, or liquid, as it were--there are plenty that can spend the money to fix this car up.  The remaining issues are extremely minor and can be done by any number of qualified and experienced people.  If you can afford to make it right, and want to then enjoy the car--do so.

If there is negative emotion here, sell it as a ready to complete project.  There's plenty of market for it.  Understand you won't get complete car pricing.

Do not attempt to part it out and sell it in pieces.  It's far more work than you imagine.

[swampdog]

Thanks for your help.  It has added some clarity but not quite answered the core question.  I still need to figure out what is a fair price for "ready to complete" restoration.

Finishing it is not an option.  I was going to finish it and give it to my daughter for her high school graduation.  She doesn't want it because it looks like a retiree car and mom doesn't think it is safe enough.  The emotional attachment was to a previous frame up restoration of a Datsun 2000 Solex.  I sold the car in my early twenties to go on a cross country camping adventure and never forgave myself.  This car was the consolation prize when I came back home.  I did drive it for a few years before starting the restoration.  It was your basic 70,000 mile wifey car.  It was in about same shape as the ones going for $20k-30K now.  If I finish it then I might get attached and I'd rather not.  I can't drive it and nobody in family wants it.

As regards parts.  I would not bother selling any of the stuff that isn't easy.  I would sell the new in box stuff like lights, weatherstripping, top, wheels, etc.  Then the big ticket items like chrome, top frame, injector, steering wheels would go into attic with a long term ebay ad.  If the aluminum skins are worth anything then they could go into attic too.  Dump the rebuilt long block on craiglist for 1/2 price and call a junkyard to come haul away the rest.  all the glass, dash metal, radiators, wiring harness, instrument cluster stuff would just go in the trash.  it's just a question of which path generates the most money without too much work.

so, roughly speaking,  in ballpark terms,
how much is a ready to complete 230SL worth?  and what things would need to be specifically understood between buyer and seller so that both get a satisfactory transaction?

also - it has two steering wheels.  the original plastic one and a wooden one.  the wooden ones appear to sell for a few thousand on ebay.  Does it affect "kit car" price if I only include one steering wheel?

[J. Huber]

How about some pictures? It sounds to me like, parts-wise you have a decent situation. Car-wise it sounds like a mess? (suggested price removed because I have no idea! but think its lower than you hope). Before you put out a hit-man on me, anybody else see a quicker way to unload it? I am leaning toward parting it.

[stickandrudderman]

If you can strike a good deal with a professional restorer, that is a price that you both think is fair, I'd say that would be the better option.
I single transaction, nice and clean, the restorer knows exactly what he's getting and indeed getting into, another car is preserved and somebody someday gets a car that they will enjoy.
If you were in the UK and it was a RHD car I'd be offering max £5000 for it and figure on spending maybe £20000 turning it into a £35000 car so that might give you some idea of where you're at.

[swampdog]

If you can strike a good deal with a professional restorer, that is a price that you both think is fair, I'd say that would be the better option.
I single transaction, nice and clean, the restorer knows exactly what he's getting and indeed getting into, another car is preserved and somebody someday gets a car that they will enjoy.
If you were in the UK and it was a RHD car I'd be offering max £5000 for it and figure on spending maybe £20000 turning it into a £35000 car so that might give you some idea of where you're at.

that's kind of what I'm thinking.  It's a waste of time trying to keep it whole.
Everybody is going to low ball it.  Why would I sell a car for £5000 when the new grille alone is being listed on ebay for £2000?  all i have to do is sell the grill, bumpers, and top frames to come out ahead.

[mdsalemi]

Swampdog, once you start listing parts, negotiating prices, shipping, dealing with all that myriad stuff--you've bought yourself a job and a project.  As I understand it, you want to get rid of a project, not take a new one on.  Then, the complaints might start coming in--and you have to deal with all that as well.  Just ask the people here who have done a lot of parts sales--by eBay or other means.  It's work, and a lot of it.  No means of promotion comes quick, easy or cheap either.  If you want to wash your hands of the project in an easy sale, it will not be at top dollar--or pound for that matter.

Kind of reminds me of the sign at the mechanics: We can do your work CHEAP, FAST, or GREAT.  Pick any two. 

[69280sl]

o - it has two steering wheels.  the original plastic one and a wooden one.  the wooden ones appear to sell for a few thousand on ebay.

If you are guaging the value of used pagoda parts by that of Nardi steering wheels, you may be disappointed. I watch these on eBay and the only ones I have seen at over one thousand are NOS wheels for the 300sl.

If you can afford to have someone finish the project and sell it as a restored car you will be better off financially and i believe emotionally. Lots of pride and satisfaction in making a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Gus

[glenn]

Where in Florida??     And how much?

[Cees Klumper]

Like Glenn I was thinking: "I will need a project car at some point here in the Keys, what about now?" But then reason came back ...

[swampdog]

Where in Florida??     And how much?

Fort myers.  I don't know how much.  that's why I came here.  

I just assumed that nobody would want to own an old worn out car. As such, I figured Pagodas were either already restored or bought to be restored.  That line of thinking caused me to place a monetary value on restoration work already completed and parts already acquired.

I realize now that my thinking was flawed.  Pagodas are the same as used boats on ebay.  A shiny piece of costume jewelry still sells for more than a dusty nugget.  Most people assume that under the dust is rust and those who know better are looking for a steal.

I should probably just take a few days and throw a lacquer yard job on the car.  When in rome, do as the romans do.

[w113dude]

Why don't you put some pictures of the project on this forum you may find an offer that may work, without seeing anything it's hard to know what we're taking about and you may get an offer, I for one may be interested.

[Sonia]

think for a second...

if you push your stuff to the ocean, what parts would you have for sale? maybe car keys….

so I gather that your problem is located elsewhere.
Would you like to talk about it?

[swampdog]

think for a second...

if you push your stuff to the ocean, what parts would you have for sale? maybe car keys….

so I gather that your problem is located elsewhere.
Would you like to talk about it?

the car, except for an unpainted shell & drivetrain, is in boxes in the attic.  most of which is new or rebuilt.

[mdsalemi]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm tiring of this thread.

Based upon the information Swamp dog presents, the first move should have been some photos.  So far, lots of chit chat and no photos.  Others have asked, and just talk comes back.  Swampdog, post photos please or just give it up and put it up for sale as a lot on eBay.  I don't think anyone in their right mind would buy anything without photos or personal inspection.

[Flyair]

Michael,
you are being too concrete and demanding.  
I think that Sonia has the point. The problem is elsewhere: the  title of the thread starts with: "I need help…"
Maybe Swampdog needs help to be pushed into the ocean??? Cold water does miracles as doctor Prisnitz advised...

[swampdog]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm tiring of this thread.

Based upon the information Swamp dog presents, the first move should have been some photos.  So far, lots of chit chat and no photos.  Others have asked, and just talk comes back.  Swampdog, post photos please or just give it up and put it up for sale as a lot on eBay.  I don't think anyone in their right mind would buy anything without photos or personal inspection.

so i haul all the stuff out of attic and take pictures.  great.  now you have pictures of 40-50 boxes.
I don't see how pictures of boxes makes any difference.  the body shell is undeneath a pile of shopvac hoses, extension cords, fertilizer spreaders, saws, blankets, misc boxes ... even looks like a portable A/C on the back.  the interior space has more vac parts, a weed whacker, a couple boxes of old plumbing parts, a bunch of compressor hoses, some snorkel stuff, and .. a cooler?  on top of the hardtop is an assortment of 4' heatshrink tubing and some rolls of veneer.  I think the trunk is full of canoeing lifejackets & stuff.  We never really canoed again after leaving atlanta so it was never unpacked.  

and you want pictures?  pictures ... of what?  boxes?  does it matter to you if the boxes are neatly arranged for the picture?  would it be okay if I took pictures of some other boxes that are also equally square on the outside?

It is a frame up restoration.  maybe in MBZ world that is the wrong terminology and you can tell me the german name for it.
the car was completely dismantled until all that is left is a 100-150KG unibody pan with stamped in frame rails,
(I also left the windscreen, firewall, floorpan, ragtop compartment, rear wheel wells, and tail section)
the unibody pan is them put on a giant shish-k-bob thing and spun around 360 degrees while being sandblasted.
other than dip and strip this is the only way I know of to get guaranteed 100% rust free restoration.  So surely you are familiar?
the pan is appropriately undercoated and underpainted while all areas are accessible
new sheetmetal is welded on - sidewall, fenders, door jambs, rockers, quarters, nose, etc.
drivetrain with a bare long block engine is installed (to avoid scratching engine compartment later)
at this point time ran out and I had to put project away.  that was 17 years ago.
it has been inside dry garage taking up space ever since.

that's the picture you want.
an new car shell stripped to the bone with a bare long block engine.

why do you need that picture?
don't you already know what that looks like?

[Neil Thompson]

You appear very aggressive Swampdog, your friends on the Forum are trying to help, if you want to sell it tell them how much you want for it, otherwise put it on an auction site as suggested or keep it.

[mdsalemi]

Well, Swampdog, good luck.  You asked for help from a world wide group of experts.  They offered it.  One of the first things they asked for is photos.  I don't want photos as I already have a car and don't need another.  But anyone interested--and there are plenty I'm sure--will want more details.

You will NEVER be able to sell a hidden car shell, and myriad boxes all over the place, without some photos, or a personal visit.  The personal visit will come from locals, or someone interested enough (perhaps from photos?) to journey to see you and what you have.  Lots of postings here won't cut it.  But you do not have to believe me.  You'll find out on your own.  If you can't provide photos, an accurate comprehensive list of parts, or at least for most of them, might entice someone to get on a plane and visit.  But that's an investment not many are willing to take unless they know what they are coming to see.

In the time it has taken you to make this listing and follow up posts, you could have spent a few moments with the camera in your phone, or any cheap digital camera, and taken some photos of not boxes, but parts in the boxes--or compiled a list of parts in detail.  Do I really have to say that?

How to do it w/o photos:

"huge box of Pagoda 113 parts; included to my knowledge are complete L&R tail lamp assemblies, including inner and outer components, new; complete L&R headlight doors, early style, new.  Re-plated chrome grill bezel, including new anodized screens L&R, and a used, but perfectly acceptable grill star.  There are some smaller boxes of miscellaneous electrical parts, new; and some bags of fasteners with part numbers, but I don't know what it they are for.  This is only one box of 10 others I have which I think are all the parts to re-assemble a Pagoda"

How not to do it w/o photos:

"Many boxes of Pagoda parts.  Up in my attic."

You are going to have to put some effort in the process--not here on this forum, but in your attic.  If not, you will only attract tire kickers or locals.  Maybe that will work for you--I hope so!  Best of luck in your quest to extricated yourself from this situation.  Everyone is here to help anyone who comes.  But if you are not taking the advice of the people who are trying to help, we cannot be of much help I'm afraid.  So, it is in that spirit that I truly say I wish you the best of luck.

[swampdog]

Well, Swampdog, good luck.  You asked for help from a world wide group of experts.  They offered it.  One of the first things they asked for is photos.  I don't want photos as I already have a car and don't need another.  But anyone interested--and there are plenty I'm sure--will want more details.

You will NEVER be able to sell a hidden car shell, and myriad boxes all over the place, without some photos, or a personal visit.  The personal visit will come from locals, or someone interested enough (perhaps from photos?) to journey to see you and what you have.  Lots of postings here won't cut it.  But you do not have to believe me.  You'll find out on your own.  If you can't provide photos, an accurate comprehensive list of parts, or at least for most of them, might entice someone to get on a plane and visit.  But that's an investment not many are willing to take unless they know what they are coming to see.

In the time it has taken you to make this listing and follow up posts, you could have spent a few moments with the camera in your phone, or any cheap digital camera, and taken some photos of not boxes, but parts in the boxes--or compiled a list of parts in detail.  Do I really have to say that?

How to do it w/o photos:

"huge box of Pagoda 113 parts; included to my knowledge are complete L&R tail lamp assemblies, including inner and outer components, new; complete L&R headlight doors, early style, new.  Re-plated chrome grill bezel, including new anodized screens L&R, and a used, but perfectly acceptable grill star.  There are some smaller boxes of miscellaneous electrical parts, new; and some bags of fasteners with part numbers, but I don't know what it they are for.  This is only one box of 10 others I have which I think are all the parts to re-assemble a Pagoda"

How not to do it w/o photos:

"Many boxes of Pagoda parts.  Up in my attic."

You are going to have to put some effort in the process--not here on this forum, but in your attic.  If not, you will only attract tire kickers or locals.  Maybe that will work for you--I hope so!  Best of luck in your quest to extricated yourself from this situation.  Everyone is here to help anyone who comes.  But if you are not taking the advice of the people who are trying to help, we cannot be of much help I'm afraid.  So, it is in that spirit that I truly say I wish you the best of luck.

i'm not trying to get offers.  I get 2-3 a year just by leaving the garage door open.
I always politely say "no" right after they ask "would you be interested in selling it?"
this year I've decided to say "yes" and get rid of the thing.
i want to know a fair price range.  

fair price - not premium price & not steal of the week
range.  - not an exact amount.

as regards what is in the attic.  
everything needed to finish the project.  in 1994 i had $1500 left to spend. 
the diamont paint is going to be sour, the continental radials dryrotted, & maybe the ragrtop window yellow from age.
none of the parts have been out of their boxes since purchased.

there is a 15Kg bucket of interior chrome parts that needs to be sent out
That plus $2500-$5000usd should be a generously safe budget for all remaining parts to result in a like new pagoda.

[Garry]

Last year I had a look at a car that the owner has dismantled and done exactly what you had done, new bonnet, new panels for everywhere new chrome etc etc etc.  Put it all away 15 years ago and finally decided that the project of putting al the new parts back together was too much for him so he decided to sell it.

He was a Barrister and Solicitor and in fact he was a Queens Council so at the top of his profession and a very smart guy you would think.  well I flew to Perth Western Australia, 5 hours flight time to see this parts car and when I got there I spent five minutes looking at his pile of old 'new' 15 year old parts and caught a taxi back to the airport and went home.  

Every item had rust, all the 'new chrome was pitted just sitting there, All the 'new' rubbers were stiff and perished, everything was in boxes, nothing labeled or cataloged, every nut and bolt in one box together, every screw in another and so it went on.

15 years ago it might have been worth the $18000 he was asking for it and you had a chance to properly catalogue the parts and group them but due to his lack of foresight and maybe some laziness thrown in as well, most of it was a heap of junk suitable for pushing in the ocean as swanpdog has suggested with his car that has been sitting there 17? years in bits.

My lesson, never ever ever ever go travel a long distance to look at something with out first seeing some detailed photos as the word of a Queens Council or anyone else for that matter is not worth diddly squit.

Whats it worth, $5000- $10,000 if what you say is true, but you are not going to advertise it on this forum unless you are a full member as that is a requirement for advertising "for sale" here.  

And, you will need some photos which is something you don't appear to want to do so what I suggest is that you open your garage some more and wait for all those that go by that want to buy it to make you an offer that you are happy to accept, or of course put it all back together and only then have to sell one big part instead of lots of small parts.

Garry