My first post. Head Oil Leaks

[912uk]

First off as this is my first post. I am Mark and live in the UK and have always wanted an SL 230 or 250 but life just got in the way and family came along and I got what I could a 280SE W108 which has the same engine as you guys. I am happy but it's not top less :-)

But I have an issue that is threatening my budget and my wife's justification to keep the car when I just got it back on the road and now 50miles later it's caused more issues! it's almost make or break.

The back ground Pull up a chair  


MBZ 280SE W108 6cylinder straight 6 4speed Auto Ex Santa Cruz Car now in England UK. 63,000 miles or 163,000miles we are not sure but 3 MBZ people have driven it and looked at it and all have said very possibly it's 63,000. Had some back ground from local garage in Santa Cruz that it was older owners that used to bring the car in for service but it was laid up for long periods of time between services not used.

Why was the head taken off first time round. Owner asked a MBZ shop to take a look at the puff of smoke the car had on start up from time to time.

Straight 6 bought in Santa Cruz Ca. Reportedly had a full head refurb by some place in Santa Cruz ( see above ) Not the sales place as I understand. Anyway because of that I bought the car and felt confident I had bought a car that had some long term work done on it.

Wrong ! got the car back to the UK and was driving along and bang! valve guide went in the head and oil went every where off the road.


3 years later !! yes I did say 3 years later because of money and time I got it back on the road.

in the 3 years I did this


Had the head off and inspected, the valve guides where rubbish.. who ever did the work fitted in standard size valve guides back in the head and at best either hit them in with a hammer and wood or pressed them in .. so badly they where bouncing up and down in the head! causing the issue.

he also refited old valves that where well past their tollerance ( eg worn out ) and had had it..

So I saved up hard and bought genuine parts from MBZ..

New valves, new over sized guides, new oil thingys ( wire round white plastic for inlet or out I forget and the same in brown for the others )
New timing chain, guides , other gear wheels. basicly as much as I could in there. And also a new head gasket from MBZ not a copy one but genuine.

So I thought I was on the right track.. I had the head by a propper old school machine shop who only does classic cars.. Check the head and then fly cut it so I removed any inperfections on the surface. He said the head was good and also that the depth was still very high and therefore he thought the head had not been cut before.

So then My friend at his shop refitted the whole lot back togeather for me and I got the back back the other week and I have done 50miles.


at a steady pace.


I know I have to have the head retorqued at 500 miles but heck !!

I have got an oil leak now! it seems to be a seep of oil causing a number of drips on the floor to be alarmed about. It's 100% coming from the head gasket area between the block and the head and not oil seeping out from the rocker cover and down the side of the head to the head gasket area. I have checked the head is still perfectly clean of oil.

I thought it might pass as it was settling in but it's not it's getting worse. I am thinking of retorque the head again incase his tools are out and my britool toeque wrench has been tested and is spot on. ( tested last year used twice )

Any one had this.. it's causing a few issues in our house hold as I used the house money to get the car back on the road and it's not looking like I am winning... even going down the genuine parts way! the wife is hovering with that final nail for the coffin.

HELP!!! every thing else about the car is fab it's a great classic for the family to be part of but it's wearing thin..  

[ctaylor738]

Is the leak at the front of the engine, running down the block behind the water pump housing?

[w113dude]

Is the oil seeping out from between the head and lower block?

[912uk]

It's coming from the side where the inlet manifold is and exhaust manifold.

That is the main area. The second area is the rear of the engine block mainly the drivers side ( LHD USA CAR ) and then a small bit ( Fuel pump side ) abit there also

The main area of concern it the maifold side it's worthy of concern that side for sure.

M130 Engine is it? are not easy to come by in the UK.. sadly I have only ever seen one for sale and that came from South Africa that car and that means one thing.. hardly serviced and looked after.

As for oil rings. well It's not a smoky engine infact it doesn't smoke atall. Even on start up there is no burnt oil coming from the exhaust nothing just steam on a cold day and that soon goes as soon as it warms up. the runs perfectly and passed it's emmisions test no issues what so ever. So as much as I agree lets look at every thing I am not sure that is the issue unless some one tells me different.

[912uk]

Is the leak at the front of the engine, running down the block behind the water pump housing?

Could be.. The water pump housing has the fan on right?

if so then I have not noticed it at the very front of the engine but I can go and have a look. But yes it is along the block behind the water pump yes.

There looks to be a cover or two with 3 bolts to them and it's between the water pump and these two covers.

I hope that makes sence it does sound like the area you are kindly taking about.

 

[w113dude]

are you sure it's oil seeping down, could it be coolant?

[912uk]

Wish it was coolant then I would understand it, by no its oil. I have cardboard on the floor and its clearly oil.

[49er]

Power steering pump/reservoir? Great picture by the way

John

[w113dude]

The only thing that would allow oil to seep though the top are worn/bad piston rings, if this is the case your engine has to come apart, or you can drive it and keep adding oil till it stops.

[912uk]

What makes you think it could be rings? There is no smoke

[912uk]

Just been thinking about the oil part. What if I have too much oil in the engine. Eg the wrong dip stick. I had this once years ago, on an old Porsche. Too short a dip stick, meant I put in the right oil level, then the engine leaked I fixed each of the leaks, topped it back to max level then I had a valve guide go on me then. Must have been the oil causing a hydrolic lock that pressed it out the head. Im going to pull the oil dip stick and measure it.

[Cees Klumper]

First off a warm welcome to you.

Secondly, "hang in there" (you and the missus); sounds like you have been going about it the right way and this is likely a minor issue (however annoying).

I've not heard of others having this problem, and I am hopeful this is indeed something relatively minor. If there is no smoke, compression is good and the engine runs well, then I am inclined to think it's something not too fundamental. Sorry I can't be very helpful, I am sure others more experienced will chime in soon.

As far as keeping costs down; once these cars are sorted out, they tend to stay sorted out for long periods of time. If you can do basic maintenance yourself, annual running costs will be very low and driving will be fun (other than fuel consumption, so drive often but not too far). Keep us posted and you've come to the right place...

[912uk]

Another thought mentioned else where, what if skimming the head ment the head bolts have bottomed out.

Are there different lenght bolts for different holes?

If this is the case can I take one bolt out at a time with out damaging the head or head gasket set up. So I can grind off a mm and put it back and retorque it back down and move on to the next bolt.

Is there a breather crank case breather on these engines I need to check, im starting to panic. Thanks Cess for your kind words, I hope so, as in something simple I cant go though another 3 years off head off and rebuild.  :'(

[Flyair]

I have no idea about the origin of that leak, but just wanted to mention that you have nice bridges in London . Is this one to replace the Chunnel?

[ctaylor738]

I have never heard of head bolts bottoming out because of a skim.  But there are thick flat washers that go under the head bolts.  It is possible that these were left out during assembly and that might cause a problem.  Suggest you pull the valve cover off and have a look and while you're in there, re-torque the head bolts.  

[912uk]

OK I 100% see what you mean about the washers I will look at that also. As you are right even the machinest who skimmed the head said these are lorry engines and are slow plodders , he pointed out that even if the head had been skimmed there was LOADS of meat left on the head and pointed at some area on the head that was very deep..

Can I take one bolt out at a time if the washers are not on there ?

or have I got to get a new gasket and start all over again..?

is there a crank case breather on these engines?

[912uk]

I have no idea about the origin of that leak, but just wasted to mention that you have nice bridges in London . Is this one to replace the Chunnel?

That is the golden gate bridge. The day I was dropping the car off at the shippers I said to my wife I want to take a photo of the car with us under the bridge. As soon as I put my son on the car bonnet he did this I had no time to focus, frame the picture right as the picture is missing the other tower and the number plate is missing to prove it was that car.. it was that one snap shot.

could I get him to do it again....... NO!! 

We have this as a poster size picture in a frame in our hallway.. all the family have this picture, it's on our bank cards and the local Mercedes Garage has it also!

It was just that one snap in a million that just worked.. that moment, that place, that was ment to be..

After that it was a criuse back though the streets of SF to my friend Chrisy the shipper and then it was over to the very tallented Mexican guys who loaded the car in with well i can't say .. as the car it was riding home with was a rather speical car, owned by the company that made it and they thought their car was in the container they paid for on it's own.. er no... my old girl you see there was in with the $400,000 car as well.... shhhhhhhhhh 

I got a half price ride home to the UK, it was that or she still stayed in SF. At my mates place.

[ctaylor738]

Yes, one bolt at a time.   You should follow the sequence in the manual, basically from the center out.  Engine should be warm, like around 80C.  If the washers are in place, just loosen each bolt slightly and re-torque.

[912uk]

I'm on it tomorrow,  now with old porsches we tighten down over the booked nm rating. I think its 80 ft lbs for our heads. I could go 83. I will start with number one lossen and re tighten up. If I take the bolt out I can measure to the bottom to make sure its deep enough. To eliminate one question.

[kampala]

Very nice photo -- worth the many thousands you spent on the car.

I won't mention the common signs of head gasket issues like water getting into oil, water getting into cylinders etc as these are common across most cars and not specific to these engines.  Knowledgeable folks have written quite a bit on head gaskets on this forum ... here one that is specific to these engines.  You will find many more.

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7987.0

Best of luck ... with the car and keeping the peace in the family. 

[912uk]

yes I saw that last night and read thought it.. it mainly spoke about AC brackets. So I am no further forward.

Is there like an Engine Guru about as in company I can call. Who knows these engines well..

In the Porsche world I could call Andy Prill who knows his early Porsche engines well.. but in the Mercedes World I am abit stuck who to ask..?

[kampala]

Many in the UK (around London) seem to rave about Colin Ferns (stickandrudderman on this forum).  I don't have personal experience with his company ... but many do ... especially JamesL ...  And some will likely offer opinions. 

http://www.colinferns.com

[Cees Klumper]

One of the possible sources of your oil leak are the bal studs that the valve rockers pivot on, that are screwed into the head. If not properly seated/sealed, oil can seep through and leak down onto the lower engine. It can seem like the oil is coming out past the spark plugs, but it's actually coming from above the plugs. It's perhaps a long shot, particularly given the quantity of oil you are probably facing, but I thought I would mention it.

[stickandrudderman]

For starters:
Your wife has no choice in the matter because you're going to give your son the car on his 21st Birthday aren't you!
(The use of an exclamation mark instead of a question mark is deliberate).
Now that we've eliminated your domestic problem lets deal with your real problem.

You need to thoroughly clean the engine and then have it elevated on a ramp to determine by close observation exactly where the oil is escaping from. You should not carry out any other work as this will add unknown variables to the diagnostic path. Luckily with these simple engines it's probable that you will indeed be able witness the oil's bid for freedom thanks to the complete absence of the obstructive paraphernalia that is attached to modern engines.
Only once you (or your nominated expert.....) have determined the origin of the leak should you start to attempt to remedy it.
Once the source of the great escape has been determined we can assist in advising you on how best to curtail any future attempts at such escapes. (oil cooler!)


The only profuse engine oil leaks that I have seen often on these engines are failed front crankshaft seals (often caused by engine oil being contaminated with fuel) and a poorly fitted bolt that secures the power steering reservoir to the side of the engine block.
Edited to add that Cees has a good point above.

[912uk]

ok going in What Cess has said I understand these are the items that are just screwed in to the head and then the tappet ( rocker ) gear is on top of it.. it's got like a dome on it.. ok.. gosh there are a few of those.. It will mean taking off all the tappet part doesn't it..

ok well what if I do a few near the leak and see if that makes a difference. I will take them out and then clean them and reseal them with some super stuff I got from the US I use on old air cooled engines ( 356's ) and that does seal well..

So what you saying then.. if I removed this item there will be a hole though to the top of the engine block? and if oil is seeping past under preasure it then is escaping out the side of the head gasket? if there is a hole there then yes I can understand the principle behind that.