Author Topic: Camshafts Knowledge  (Read 8467 times)

SilverSpear

  • Associate Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Abu Dhabi, UAE
  • Posts: 238
Camshafts Knowledge
« on: February 12, 2013, 12:35:32 »
Hello guys,

I have started with the engine overhaul and I bought all bits and pieces related to the head. Yes I am a bit obsessed, I want everything to be perfect without exceptions.
Quite frankly I am not the Tech guru in relation to old Merc engines and I still have the camshaft I am toying with the idea of replacing. I have searched this forum and read a lot of comments related to them, but still I don't want to base my knowledge on just reading opinions. My car is an early Euro 67 250SL.

My original camshaft is dated 27.11.65 and the number stamped on it is 180-051-86-01. Didn't check the back number, will do within the next 24 hours. I have read somewhere on this forum that this type of cam is considered "hot"...
On the other hand, a local seller carries a new camshaft with the part number 114-051-01-01. Just in case I buy this camshaft, is it possible for me to be downgrading the performance of my engine? How can I know that?

This seller has also 7 new camshafts that I can choose from. Didn't bother to look up the part numbers. Can someone please guide me through the "hottest cam" to the least performant one?

I simply want to take a reference with me that I can use to compare the ones he has with mine. Thanks in advance guys.
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

W113SL

  • Guest
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 22:11:27 »
The camshaft you have(8601) is correct for an M129 engine..  It is slightly hotter than the US 280 Cams.  The early Euro sec cam (180-051-0935 is clearly the best 280 cam, but they are no longer available new.
 
The 114-051-0101 is the US spec later style 280 cam.  In order to use it you must replace the camshaft bearings which can be very expensive.  What makes you suspicious that the original cam  is worn?

Joe Alexander has opined to me in the past that the 230SL cam (8401) is hotter than the 250 o 280 Cam and should fir your existing cam bearings..


Improving Cam timing for performance for your engine is problematic as I know of no after market cam suppliers who have ever offered one for sale.  A solution may be to get your cam reground, but you will need to compensate for changes in the base circle of the cam.


W113SL

SilverSpear

  • Associate Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Abu Dhabi, UAE
  • Posts: 238
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 15:25:47 »
The camshaft you have(8601) is correct for an M129 engine..  It is slightly hotter than the US 280 Cams.  The early Euro sec cam (180-051-0935 is clearly the best 280 cam, but they are no longer available new.
 
The 114-051-0101 is the US spec later style 280 cam.  In order to use it you must replace the camshaft bearings which can be very expensive.  What makes you suspicious that the original cam  is worn?

Joe Alexander has opined to me in the past that the 230SL cam (8401) is hotter than the 250 o 280 Cam and should fir your existing cam bearings..


Improving Cam timing for performance for your engine is problematic as I know of no after market cam suppliers who have ever offered one for sale.  A solution may be to get your cam reground, but you will need to compensate for changes in the base circle of the cam.


W113SL

Thank you for your reply W113SL.

Yes I have been in contact with Joe, he sent me a cams list but it was in an extension file which I cannot open.
I don't mind putting a 230SL cam for sure, and as I know, there are two 230SL and two 280SL cams which have a total duration of 142. The 280SL cams are 02 and 09 and the 230SL cams are 84 and 76.

Might you have the full part numbers of these cams? And if possible the bearings that the 280SL require for me to fit inside my 250 engine head.

I don't know if my cams are worn out or not but if I can find a better cam for my car, I will install it.

Need to weigh my options for either case.  ::)
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

SilverSpear

  • Associate Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Abu Dhabi, UAE
  • Posts: 238
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2013, 22:40:32 »
Ok guys,

After much research on the forum, I was able to put together a list of W113 camshafts according to full part numbers and duration.
Only one cam (70) I couldn't find the duration for.

If you guys think I have done a mistake, or didn't include another cam type in there, please let me know so that I edit the list.


Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2013, 23:58:10 »
Hello,

My info shows the "70" having a *duration of 112, but I do not see that it was ever used on a 230SL?


*By "duration" we are referring to the total no. of degrees an  intake and an exhaust valve are open on one cylinder, during a single revolution of the camshaft. This duration  is directly related to the ability of different cam shafts to produce horse power in some cases.

"Cam Swapping" a bit more complex than what meets the eye..............................................

Depending on the year and version, things to be cautious about when swapping camshafts with earlier or later versions;

-There are hollow internally lubricated camshafts (earliest) and the later solid externally lubricated camshafts with the external oil tube.

-There are skinnier lobe camshafts (early) and wide lobe camshafts (late) the rocker arms have skinny or wide contact surfaces to match their respective cam shafts.

-The early skinny lobe cam shafts also had cylinder heads with smaller diameter pressure pads on the valve spring cap, under the rocker arm. In addition the "valve spring cap" for these smaller diameter pressure pads was also different from the later spring cap.

-improved steel alloys and/or improved hardening processes are used  in some version cam shafts and rocker arms.

-cam stands (cam bearings) may have different diameters depending on the version. Later versions had the larger diameter cam stands.

-when swapping cam and cam bearings, always check the height of the "foot"  (the part where the head bolt goes) of the cam stand to the originals. This height may vary and may require a set of different length head bolts.

-original Mercedes cam shaft lobes and rocker arm contact surface, on these cars are case hardened (nitrited). Re-ground cam shafts will not last unless they are also case hardened.

Joe Alexander (ja17)
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 00:32:34 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

SilverSpear

  • Associate Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Abu Dhabi, UAE
  • Posts: 238
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 05:32:00 »
Yes Joe, I read about that. Thank you for clarificating it further.

How do the 230sl and 250sl cams compare to each other? Which of the 230sl cams is internally lubricated?
Early 1967 Pagoda 250SL - Under comprehensive restoration
Euro 2013 Mercedes 350SL

stickandrudderman

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, England, Richmond
  • Posts: 2926
    • http://www.colinferns.com
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 09:39:06 »
Is the valve lift the same on them all?

Benz Dr.

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7220
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 17:41:41 »
Isn't valve lift a combination of cam lobe and rocker lenght. The actual lift on the cam lobe is about 10 mm and the rocker may move that up to 12 mm - any more that that and you would be looking at coil bind on the springs. I don't know if the lift is the same on all cams.

 Duration is one part of the story and the other part is cam timing. I think the hottest cam is around 12.5 degrees BTDC on th intake valve. Most cams are in the 9 degree range so I used an offset woodruff key to advance it up to 12 degrees. I can't remember for sure but I think I used the 76 230SL cam.

 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Sead

  • Vendor
  • Silver
  • ****
  • Bosnia and Herzegovina, Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo
  • Posts: 261
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2018, 10:45:12 »
Hello all,

I´m now at getting parts together for rebuilding my ´64 230SL engine. It has a 250SL head.
I´m looking for a new camshaft.
Installed now is A1800518601 #86

I was lucky to get NOS cam bearings with nr. A1800502297, same as now in car.

1. Is this bearing set a 1st repair with +0.1mm or standard size ? I have EPC but not sure about that...
2. What camshafts can I use with this bearings?

Thank you
Sead
1964 230SL

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5721
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2018, 13:06:01 »
Hi Sead - to be absolutely certain, I would measure the bearings with a micrometer, and cross-reference to the data book ('tabellenbuch') that has all of the detailed specifications.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Sead

  • Vendor
  • Silver
  • ****
  • Bosnia and Herzegovina, Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo
  • Posts: 261
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2018, 14:44:37 »
Hi Sead - to be absolutely certain, I would measure the bearings with a micrometer, and cross-reference to the data book ('tabellenbuch') that has all of the detailed specifications.

Need to do measuring with micrometer yet... but they seem to be standard... or just worn?
1964 230SL

Sead

  • Vendor
  • Silver
  • ****
  • Bosnia and Herzegovina, Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo
  • Posts: 261
Re: Camshafts Knowledge
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2018, 14:50:48 »
Tabellenbuch shows this...
1964 230SL