280SEL 4.5 brake upgrade to my W113 - Part numbers?

[ABikePeddler]

When in doubt... ask for help....

After 2 decades of sitting, our 230SL was finally brought back to life a couple months back.  I have gone system by system replacing everything.  Now it is time for the brakes...

I have decided to upgrade the cars original solid discs and Girling calipers to the direct, bolt in replacement vented discs and slightly larger (wider) calipers of the 72' era 280SEL 4.5.  Spent the good portion of 8 hours this weekend weeding through the threads on this forum and others researching this upgrade and while a number of people have done this install, nobody mentions part numbers for the calipers or rotors in any of the posts.  I am running into problems trying to order the correct calipers to match the vented rotors.  Because the 280SEL's vented rotor is wider then the stock 230SL's solid disc the calipers must be equally wide to accept the wider disc.  But on none of the parts supply websites (RockAuto, Pelican, etc....) is it clear which caliper is the correct one to fit the wider vented disc.  And because Mercedes offered the 280SEL's with non-vented discs as well (correct me if I am wrong), there is a good chance I could order the wrong calipers. Yes, I called the auto parts places but they just said they have no way of verifying the caliper is a match for the vented discs. 

Can anyone help with either a part number of a link to the correct calipers? I have noticed that there is a noticeable shortage of front left calipers for the 280SEL's so finding the correct one might be harder then I thought. 

Thanks for any assistance...
   

[awolff280sl]

Hi,
I installed calipers manufactured by A1 Cardone: left: 19-1130 right: 19-1131. These work with the vented rotors off the W108 you mentioned.
Both were available at RockAuto.com
Hope this helps.
Andy

[ABikePeddler]

Hi,
I installed calipers manufactured by A1 Cardone: left: 19-1130 right: 19-1131. These work with the vented rotors off the W108 you mentioned.
Both were available at RockAuto.com
Hope this helps.
Andy

Thanks Andy so much for the reply!  The A1 Cardone right side front caliper is still available but the left (19-1130) is not.  Rock Auto only offers a "Return and Rebuild" service which, in my case does no good since I do not have a core for them to rebuild.  But thank you for verifying the part number at least.  That helps and I will look around further using that number.

Eric
San Diego, CA

[ja17]

Hello Abike,

The W108 and W109 Chassis Mercedes were built from 1965 through 1972. The W109 chassis cars were the same models but with the air suspension systems.  Only the models with the V-8 engines used the larger vented rotors and wider opening calipers. Both versions used the same size front and rear brake pads, but  the opening width in the calipers were wider, as you know, to accommodate the wider vented rotors. The six cylinder versions of the 280SE and SEL ended production in 1971. However the 280SE and SEL 4.5 v-8 continued production into 1972.  Consequently, if you order parts for a 1972 280SE, SEL you will always get the correct brake calipers (002 421 5598) and rotors (109 420 0005).
The wider calipers are easily identified by viewing the added spacer between the two caliper halves, which increases the pad opening width on this version.

Rebuilt brake calipers can save you big.  Here are some I just searched up for around $56.00 ea.!   http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/search/?Ntt=Mercedes+Brake+Caliper. I do not have any experience with this vendor. I suspect that there are many other brake caliper re-builders out there with the same deals.

[ABikePeddler]

 Consequently, if you order parts for a 1972 280SE, SEL you will always get the correct brake calipers (002 421 5598) and rotors (109 420 0005).
The wider calipers are easily identified by viewing the added spacer between the two caliper halves, which increases the pad opening width on this version.

Rebuilt brake calipers can save you big.  Here are some I just searched up for around $56.00 ea.!   http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/search/?Ntt=Mercedes+Brake+Caliper.

ja17 - Thanks for the link and the proper part numbers.  This helped lead me to a online parts retailer that SAYS they have the parts in stock.  We will see.  Apparently the front left calipers are getting scarce according to my searching.  

I am confused about one thing.  From reading all the past posts as well as this most recent one, it is stated that "the pads are the same", which I take to mean that the pads from a 230SL ATE style caliper are the same pad used in the 280SE/280SEL caliper.  I only bring this up for clarification purposes.  Lastly, I have attached a pic of my front right disc.  I appears much different then the pictures of the vented discs from the 280SEL models.  Why is this?


A quick note of thanks:   I want to thank you (ja17) personally for all the great info you contribute to these boards.  I have learned so much from your particular posts on this forum... from the fuel system to the electrical and now the brakes.  You are always very accurate and detailed in the things you describe and that really helps novice DIY guys like me work on these cars.  It is amazing how online forum posts from 5, 10 even 15 years ago can have such a long lasting positive effect well after they were originally presented.  I will tell you, having this car in my life since the year I was born (1967), I grew up fearing it, especially the mechanical fuel injection system that I was always told "was very complicated and hard to work on."  But the wealth of knowledge shared by those who I suspect make their living working on these cars has been an invaluable resource.  I was able to SAFELY solve so many issues after this car laid dormant since for the past 21 years.  Hell, I now have a fully functioning VDO CLOCK which hasn't tick-tocked since the Nixon administration!  So thank you for everything with regards to your efforts... who ever you are.




  
 

[ABikePeddler]

The wider calipers are easily identified by viewing the added spacer between the two caliper halves, which increases the pad opening width on this version.

The caliper shown below is listed as being correct for the front of a 72' 280SEL 4.5.  I see no spacer however that you mention above. Am I missing something?

[ja17]

Hello Abike,

The pads for the late 230SLs, the standard 280SE, and the 280SE vented brakes in front are the same. The early 230SL pad is indeed different and will not work in any of the later calipers.

Thanks for the kind words, its fun trying to solve problems long distance, and watch others succeed in keeping their Pagodas on the road!  Lots of good people and other experts on this board. I always learn things myself. Eventually many of  the students become the experts!  Everyone has a different way of looking at a problem and ways to resolve it.

Joe Alexander (ja17)
Blacklick, Ohio

[ja17]

Hello,

I think they are using six cylinder calipers for both pictures. It may just be a catalog error.  Hopefully the parts supplied are correct. The spacer is at the seam where the two halves bolt together. It is about a quarter inch thick. I may be able to post a picture in a day or two with some dimensions for the pad opening width.

[Naj ✝︎]

When in doubt... ask for help....

I have decided to upgrade the cars original solid discs and Girling calipers to the direct, bolt in replacement vented discs and slightly larger (wider) calipers of the 72' era 280SEL 4.5.  

A bit of caution:

The brake discs (rotors) on the 230 SL are 253 mm diameter and on the later cars they are 279mm
The mounting point of the calipers on the stub axles is therefore not the same AFAIK.
You may find that there is no room for the 279mm rotors when the later calipers are in place...

From your picture, the caliper does not seem to be Girling, so may be worth checking the rotor diameter...

Naj

[ABikePeddler]

The brake discs (rotors) on the 230 SL are 253 mm diameter and on the later cars they are 279mm
The mounting point of the calipers on the stub axles is therefore not the same AFAIK.
You may find that there is no room for the 279mm rotors when the later calipers are in place...

Thanks Naj for the reply...

I looked into this and you seem to be correct.  The disc diameters of the early W113 cars is smaller then the diameter of the later W108/W109 cars from which this upgrade supposedly is a direct bolt on.  This just adds to my confusion.   Below is technical drawings of both discs and the diameters are different and unless the calipers have longer reaches from their mounting points on the steering knuckles, there is going to be problems!  Maybe this brake upgrade is only applicable to the later 280SL's? 



 

[Naj ✝︎]

I looked into this and you seem to be correct.  The disc diameters of the early W113 cars is smaller then the diameter of the later W108/W109 cars from which this upgrade supposedly is a direct bolt on.
 

I think the calipers are interchangeable. The difference is on the mounting points on the stub axle (described as steering knuckle in the EPC)
I believe the 230 SL stubs come from the Fintails and the part # starts '111 ... .. ..' while the 250/280 SL stubs start with '108 ... .. ..'

You can probably get all the correct parts from a W108 donor car.

Naj

[ABikePeddler]

Ahhhh...  Naj, you are correct.  The W108 vented rotor upgrade is NOT plug n' play with the early cars such as my 65' 230SL because the steering knuckle is not the same as on the later W113 cars and therefore the caliper will not accommodate the larger diameter rotors of the W108 cars. I was able to verify this when I found this thread about this topic: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15519.0

In all the previous versions I have read about the W108 brake upgrades there was never any mention that it wouldn't work on the older W113 cars.  Glad I found out now! 

So is there a good source for used Benz parts on the web?  I might look into making this upgrade a reality if I can source the steering brake hub knuckle thingamajigger reasonably easily.

[ja17]

Hello Abike,

One thing to keep in mind with the upgrade is that you will not get any increase in breaking power under normal conditions. The brake pad area and the caliper power, basically remains the same. You will have better brake cooling with the vented rotors, so braking  can improve in sever conditions when the brakes tend to overheat. Having all those new parts will improve braking if some of your old brake parts are not 100%.  This may be a lot of extra work unless you intend on driving the car hard.

Good catch on the stub axles NAJ

Here are some pics I took of the 6 cylinder rotors and the 8 cylinder rotors. Looks like the pad opening in the small rotors is roughly 1 7/8" and in the larger calipers it is  roughly 2 1/8"  It appears that the new production of the large calipers is no longer using the spacers I mentioned previously.

[ABikePeddler]

ja17,

Yea, I was aware that the upgrade to W1008 vented system has virtually the same surface area and really will not produce any increased braking performance except under the most extreme circumstances.  But knowing me, (daily driver: 05' E55 AMG Estate that does through rear tires every 3k) I will actually push the little SL at times and would like to eliminate as much chance of brake fade as possible.  Imagine my surprise, when installing new tires last month, to find these cars has solid discs!  "Hold bleep!" I said.  But should I have been surprised?  Car doesn't even have seat belts. 

While I am going to add proper seat belts, I have decided to just replace the stock Girling calipers with proper ATE calipers, new rotors, lines and Superblue brake fluid.  I think I will have the the rear drum shoes re-shoed by Porterfield.  Hear good things about that update.   

I wonder if there is a better front pad offered by Hawk or the like.  I have had exceptionally good experiences with upgrading pads on my cars from stock issue.  Much better bite. 

Thanks for the pictures by the way.   Very helpful.  I will keep my eye out for a pair of W108 knuckles as this upgrade to vented rotors sounds like a worth while one.

Eric -

[ja17]

Hello Eric,

I know what  you mean, I am an AMG driver myself (SLK 32 AMG). I can get the large vented front rotors, glowing cherry red, even on this car,  after a few laps on the track.

[ABikePeddler]

Hello Eric,

I know what  you mean, I am an AMG driver myself (SLK 32 AMG). I can get the large vented front rotors glowing cherry red, even on this car,  after a few laps on the track.

Ahhh... so you get it.  Not to stray to far from the topic of upgrading the brakes on my car but are you aware of anyone that has resto-modded a W113?  That is, has anyone restored one of these with a modern drivetrain?  I know about the one guy that show horned a 5 Liter Merc motor into a W113 but I am more talking about anybody that has, say, put a newer 32 AMG drivetrain into a W113?  That would be a wicked little car and one truly in need of BETTER BRAKES!  lol

Thanks to everyone how helped clarify the upgrading of the standard cars brakes.

[ja17]

Hello Eric,

Not to hi-jack the thread, but John Olson, (SL Market Newsleter) is completing the installation of a SLK 32 engine (350hp) in his W111 coupe.

[DaveB]

I've been told that part of the braking improvement with larger diameter rotors is due to the force being applied further from the axle (increased leverage), not just improved resistance to brake fade. But there'd also be the disadvantage of slightly increased weight with larger rotors. There's perhaps not much difference but anecdotally I've absorbed somewhere on this site that the Teves are superioir to the Girling, other things being equal (and notwithstanding the smaller pads on the Teves). Can anyone objectively confirm that?

[kiheimatt]

I hope it is appropriate for me to revive this old thread...

I have a resto-mod 1965 230SL and I would like to upgrade the brakes. It currently has the original small/solid originals. Givem that it is not closer to 400HP I would like to improve the stopping power.

I was wondering if you might provide an update sharing what you ended up doing, what you have learned, who you sourced parts from, etc.

Thank you for the great thread!

Matt

[wjsvb ✝︎]

If you need a caliper for a core, PM me; I have a couple.  I am in Canada skiing 'til 2/23, so couldn't fulfill before then.  BTW, have you considered replacing the entire rear with a 280SEL 4.5 3.27?  May not work so well with an automatic, though.  Jon

[kiheimatt]

Thank you. The rear end has been upgraded with a Jaguar rear end, axles, disk brakes, etc...

I just need to resolve an appropriate upgrade for the front brakes.