Restoration Difficulty Level

[andyburns]

Hey Tom,  thanks for your reply.  The front seal appears to be all that is standing between ATF coming through the front seal and belching out into the bell housing.  My parts box had a front seal so brittle that it crumbled in my hands.  I couldn't quite understand that as the bell housing seemed quite clean and yet my gearbox had a perfect seal and the bell housing had a thick layers of sludge all over it.  Probably from the rear dog turn seal which is my next drama not doubt.

I hope I havn't scared you off doing this rather than provide you some useful information on how to do it with ease.  If I had to do it again it would take a fraction of the time.  

I am really glad I have this second box.  I am going to keep it as a backup should something crap itself when I take mine out for its first test run.  Today I am going to wip the top case off and check out the condition of the gears.  Mine had a few chinks here and there but I am fairly certain that all the syncros and bearings have been done at some stage.  I suspect this as all the seals are fresh and when I took the car off the road the box was changing beautifully.  As my mercedes tech mate pointed out to me last night this could also be why my box seems tighter ie the old box was loose as a goose with 50 years of wear on it.

I dont think taking the box the next step and breaking down the main shaft and idler arm to get at all the gear set would be that difficult.  I would be damned interested to here from someone that has done it to know if this is the case.  One thing that has saved my bacon on this job is the volumes of photos I have snapped, before, after and during the refurb.  Literally every nut I have taken off I have taken pics off.  Sounds silly but there all manner of lengths and bits pieces.

Its amazing what you forget over the course of a week.  Just last night I reviewed the photos and had to go out into the garage and make a few last 'swaps' of bits and pieces.

I am currently in the process of trying to extract the old seal on the parts box without screwing it.  It going to be very hard to do.  Even then the depth of the steel base, with all the rubber removed, is not quite enough to clear the rubber on the new seal.  Will take some pictures of this if it work out.

Anyway, fingers crossed my gearbox pilgrimage is going to come to an end in the next day or so and this week I can move onto the engine.  This I am not looking forward to.

[andyburns]

Finished the box.  The seal took me an hour or so to finally get in.  Half an hour to get the old seal out of the spare gearbox and another half to carefully fit it up. 

Took the top off the spare box as well.  I would say its far better than my box.  All the gears look perfect.  If I had it on day one I would have ran with it.  Guess having it in the garage is good insurance. 

[andyburns]

Here we go

Finally plucked up enough courage today to start my engine refurb.  I am hoping its only going to be cosmetic but if everything else that has come before is any guide... well might be in for quite some ride.

The first task was to extricate it from its hiding place of the past past two year, a very dank and dusty corner of the garage, and get it up onto an engine stand.  Sounds easy but actually took quite a while to get it balanced nicely on the engine stand.  I want to be able to work on the bottom end  so I had to ensure that I got the C of G right on the mounting so it could be rotated easily.  

Before I got it on the stand I also had to strip off the clutch plate, flywheel and alloy sandwich plate that sits between the block and the bell housing.  Everything came off with ease.  To my surprise there wasn't much oil behind the flywheel.  I was expecting it to be filthy with my prediction of a failing rear main.  But was surprised to find everything relatively clean.  In some respects I wish it was an obvious oil leak as at least it would have been identified and repairable.  Now I am even more confused as to where all the puddles on the floor came from and what to do about them.

I am just going to continue with my plan of re-sealing as much as I can without going too far... whatever that practically mean.

After I got it all mounted up on the stand I started taking off a few bits and pieces.  The frost plates have caused me issues in the past with cap screw rusting in and snapping off if you get to brutal on them.  Took my time and eased them off with no worries.  The frost plates were almost new which was a good sign its been worked on in recent years.  Hopefully a good omen for things to come.

The last owner swore he had it fully refurbished back in the early 90's and with only a few thousand k's on it I am hoping for the best.

[andyburns]

Have had a few days off the car this week but back onto the engine today.  I took the oil pan off first to see what the general state of the internals looked like.  I was pleasantly surprised.  I have pulled apart quite a few of these old motors and normally the internals are usually pitch black covered in an inch of sludge.  Not this engine.  It was relatively pristine right down to the original red/orange painted at the factory over the internal walls of the block.  Even the pistons were nice and shiny.  I am more an more confident that the last owner was telling the truth about the money spent on it.  Certainly all stacking up in his favor at the moment.  Just got to iron out the oil leaks and I will feel confident putting it back in.

Next I pulled off the front harmonic balancing wheel.  The big center nut gave me some grief but with a bit of gentle persuasion it came free.  Once this was off I carefully studied the oil and sludge pattern down the front of the engine.  To my surprise it almost seems as if the oil is coming from higher up just under the water pump housing.  Am picking the studs go into oil jackets and the last mechanic simply forgot to coat the thread with sealant.  I am interested in everyones thoughts here.

I have formulated a final plan.  Think I will still take the bottom main ali pan off, replace half the dog turd rear seal and reseal.  This will also give me the opportunity to blast all the alloy and get the cap screws plated.  Slap it back on and replace the front main.  I have an entire top and bottom end gasket set so I may as well use it.

Will probably pull off the water pump and its ali housing and investigate the leak.  But I think I will leave the timing gear front ali cover in place.  Wire brush the block, mask and paint after a very very thorough degrease and clean.

Hopefully it will turn out trumps!

[GGR]

It is sometimes difficult to determine where oil is coming from. Once it hits the crank pulley it is sent everywhere, and that spot at the bottom of the water pump may be greasy because of that. Is the back of your crank pulley greasy?

I recently worked on my wife's fintail w110 230 and the front of the engine was covered in oil and sludge. I left the crankshaft seal alone, cleaned everything but used thread sealant on all bolts on the front of the engine. 300 miles later the engine is still as clean as when I put it back together.

[andyburns]

GGR,  I am almost certain your right on all accounts.   Are you a engineer or mechanic?   

 I am going to study a spare 108 block I have here and figure out which of the bolts down the front face lead into oil passages.  Will end up resealing everything but just a good exercise to ensure when it all goes back together that I pay the 'correct' attention to the bolts that actually matter.

I think that my bell housing leak was the same type of issue as well.  The box had obviously been taking apart as all the seals were beautifully fresh but something was leaking even when the car was sitting up doing nothing.  Pools of oil would form on the garage floor under the bell housing.  Logic dictates that the oil isn't from the main front gearbox seal as it sits above the waterline of the gearbox.  I am almost certain this applies to the engine oil and the rear main engine seal as well. 

So if I have oil continually leaking for weeks on end without starting the car it my humble opinion that the culprit with my gearbox issues is the two lower bolts which penetrate through an open hole into the main gearbox cavity.  When I refilled my box I didn't seal these properly and visibly saw oil seeping out.  I tipped the box up took the bolts out, cleaned the oil out of the thread with solvent and resealed.  I tested the box again by leaving it tipped at a 45 which allowed oil to be constantly flooding all of the front sealing components.  Left it overnight to be sure.  Dry as a bone.  Then turned around the next night and did the same on the rear.    I couldn't do it on the top because of the breather which just pisses oil everywhere.

I am wondering how effective thread seal is when you don't clean the thread before use of oil/grease/sludge residue.  I know from experience that when I have tried to smear sealing compound on more obvious and accessible mating surfaces which I hadn't cleaned properly that the compound doesn't adhere well at all.  I think that perhaps this could be a mistake made by mechanics under time constraints or when the repair is been done in situ and its just too hard to achieve.  Bolts just get slapped back in with little thought.  Job done, customer pays cash and a couple of months latter the leak begins.

I am really hoping I wont have any more puddles on my garage floor if I pay a little attention at this point of proceedings.  Again I am certainly no mechanic but just trying to apply a bit of common sense to the problem.  Am 100% certain that an experienced Mercedes mechanic would give a much more confident and accurate diagnosis.  Just treat anything I say with a grain of salt  


 

[GGR]

I'm no professional mechanic nor an engineer, but I've been turning wrenches since I'm a kid.

many threads in front of the engine go through into the chain well. I don't think any is in contact with an oil line, but the pressure in the crankcase and oil being thrown around in enough to create seepage if thread sealant is not being used. Same with the transmission. Don't limit yourself to the bolts below the oil level. when it's all turning at 5000 rpm in there I guess oil is everywhere (if not, how would the upper shaft be lubricated?). So I would use thread sealant for all the bolts that go through the case wall. The breather on the top has a special shape to allow for air go out but not oil. 

[andyburns]

GGR,  I agree with your sentiments but still think anywhere where oil can pool directly behind a bolt head that gravity and the pressure of the pool will take effect and make a thread leak much worse.  I am wondering if up around the ali water housing if there are any pockets or ledges where oil get deposited on mass during normal operation.  If the engine is healthy I dont think to much pressure builds up in the internals does it?  I could understand  the effect your referring to would be accentuated if all your compression rings were shot!  Oil would be forced out all sorts of crevices and cracks.   I will be definitely taking your advice and sealing every bolt I put in. Thanks for your help 

[GGR]

bolts under the oil level are certainly more prone to seepage than others. But using thread sealant everywhere a bolt goes through a housing is not difficult and is good insurance. You should look into the workshop manual, usually the mention where thread sealant needs to be used. When I rebuilt my transmissions, I clearly remember the manual specific for these transmissions mentioning the need for using thread sealant everywhere a bolt was going through a casing.

[andyburns]

O for Awesome

This notorious New Zealand saying was burnt into New Zealand folk law after one of our best every heavy weight boxers (there havn't been many) went on New Zealand wheel of fortune and uttered these now legendary words.  Take a look at the you tube video if you don't believe me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaIZF8uUTtk&feature=kp

Even though these words were uttered more than a decade ago they still endure and often I here the phrase spoken in NZ where someone has had a good run of luck or thinks something is really awesome.  I had and O for Awesome day today!

Cracked open the base pan to be met by what looked like a freshly restored bottom end.  Everything was mint.  The first thing that struck me was the factory orange internal paint which had shown glimpses of itself when I pulled the small sump pan.  Now I was almost blinded.

Better access to the pistons has further convinced me that I have a near new set installed.  Everything is as it should.  The front and rear seals were pretty damn good as are the running surfaces on the crank.  To be honest this is the first crank I have seen where there isn't a 'ditch' cut into it with 50 years of the seal lip running over it.  Its almost perfect.  Perhaps it was machined when it was overhauled in the early 90's.  

In any event I am over the moon and am glad I went the distance and cracked the pans to confirm.    Kinda the same feeling when you go to the dentist after many years of total sugar abuse on top of minimal brushing and flossing to be told you have lovely teeth and to keep up the good work.  The previous owner must have flossed.. quite a bit.

[andyburns]

I thought things couldn't get any better until I cracked the rocker cover for the first time.   Same story here.  Tears of happiness flowing after careful examination of the cams, timing gear and the inside of the rocker cover.  Off to take the wife and family off to a celebratory restaurant meal followed by several glasses of good vino.   Life is good.

Think with today's find I will have a shot at having the car on the road by xmas.  Good news for all of you guys who are sick of my bantering  

[andyburns]

The only thorn in my side is that it looks as if Buds Benz has sent me the incorrect engine seal kit.  The early 230 and 250 appear to have a completely different sump pan to mine.  Buds sent a kit for the latter 280sl engine.

I told them very very clearly that I had a 230 and have sent them an email with a description of the problems and some photos to mull over.  I would have thought with their experience this problem should have been avoidable.  Will see how they respond.

In the mean time can anyone tell me if, other than the sump pan, there will be any other variations in the seal kit.  ie do I just need the sump gasket or are there dozens of other differences in the gaskets between a M130 and the M127.  I am picking there are and that to save a lot of frustration David needs to send me a M127 seal kit instead of a M130 equivalent. 

Any help on this appreciated.

Regards

Andrew

[andyburns]

Busy week in the bead blaster.   Achieved a lot this weeks  before I head off to a new contract next week which will earn me a few bucks but take me away from the refurbishment for a few months.

Most of the week has been concentrating on the engine parts taken off for the reseal.  All the ali was blasted along with all the nuts and bolts.  I am still waiting on the plating of the nuts and bolts after the electroplater was hospitalized with a burst appendix.  Hopefully they will be ready tomorrow and I can crack into the assembly. 

I set myself the target of having the block back in the engine by the end of the weekend before I went off to work.  Not going to happen.  Probably way to optimistic from the start.

[andyburns]

Some pics of the painted engine components.  Should look quite crisp back on the engine.  All the pulleys have been powder coated in matching satin.  I didn't want to take the harmonic balancer into the powder coating booth as it has a layers of rubber which are glued/bonded to the outer metal casing.  Risking the glue coming apart wasn't worth it.  So all these parts got coated in ceramic high temp paint.  Its resistant to solvents and oil and is also temp rated to 300 so should do the job.

[andyburns]

With all the bits that come out of the bead blaster I sit down individually and inspect for damage.  Its amazing what you miss when you take stuff off the car and have other things on your mind.  I came back to the water pump housing and discovered that electrolisis had set in which then probably  had gone on to cause a big enough pit to start promoting cavitation.  Whatever it had to be fixed as it was only a few mm from coming out the other side.  If left this type of problem could end in some pretty nasty knock on effects.

I took the part down to my local specialist ali welders.  He has taken a keen interest in the project and was really interested in my latest problem.  It only took him a few seconds to fill the hole.  He didn't want any money as long as I agreed to do all the dressing.  I got home and got my dremel out. Used a combination of the sanding heads and the steel nibbling auger to reshape the weld back to approx the factory shape.  Took an eternity.  The weld that was put in is much harder material than the original casting.

I carefully tested out the fitted up pump in the housing to make sure all the clearances were ok.  No problem so move on to the next challenge.

Hopefully it should last a few more years.

[andyburns]

Moved on to trying to fix the heater flap that broke a few weeks back.  It happened after I had put everything back together and was testing out the completed system.  The small hinge pin broke off.  Apart the dash came again.  The broken part has been sitting on the front of the car since teasing me every time I walk past it.  It hasn't been pleasant having to look at it every day knowing I have to make repairs. 

As it turned out the fix didn't take long at all.  Its strange how the brain works. Half the stuff I worry myself over turn out to be no where as bad as the mind anticipates. 

I measure up the tang at 5.8mm in diameter.  Its a very tight fit into the opposing housing and is quite an odd size so I worried that I wouldn't be able to get something suitable.  As it happened I looked down at an old philips head screwdriver at my feet and wondered.  Picked it up and clocked it with the micrometer at exactly 5.8mm.  Someone above was taking pity on me that day. 

Five minutes with the hacksaw and the raw materials were ready.  Used the dremel to make quick work of preparing the flap to take the new rod.  Used Q Bond to glue it in.  That stuff is awesome for this type of repair.  Easily 10 times as strong as the original design.

Knowing the steps involved in putting it back in also really helped.  The first time probably took me close to 2 hours, this time it was all back in place in less that 40 minutes.  The difference it made to the feel of the attached lever was quite pronounced.  When I broke it the first time I was playing with it because it didn't feel right.  Now its really positive and doesn't have any flex at all.  Good result which I am sure will last years to come.

Have also attached some pics of the painted engine block for your viewing pleasure.

Spent a full day today finalizing the stereo install and installing my seats on the rails.  Nice to finally sit in the seats without them sliding around all over the show.

[andyburns]

Picked up the plated nuts and bolts today.  Some of them are high tensile so I decided to heat treat everything to eliminate any brittleness introduced by the plating process.  Soaked them at 180 for 6 hours in my kitchen oven.  I screws over perhaps 30% of the cosmetic of the gold plating but ensures none of the head will shear off when I torque them up. 

Now I just have to suss out where they are all suppose to go.  Quite a few distinctly different fixings.  I have no idea where most of them go but will rely on common sense, an accurate depth gauge and perhaps some help from in here to figure it all out.  Am sure a fair amount of head scratching will ensue.

I will replace the two frost plates if your wondering. Too much pitting.

[andyburns]

Made good progress on the engine up until this afternoon.  Trying to get the front main crank seal back in.  I am uncertain if the seal I have is correct for my engine.  It came out of the M130 seal kit buds sent accidentally.  I read all the relevant threads in here but am still a bit confused.

Packed the inner race of the seal with grease and applied a thin smear of sealant to the perimeter of the seal.  Tried driving it in but the edges keep on catching as if the seal OD is too large.  It all seems to measure up ok so am wondering if there is a technique to getting this started and compressed into the housing.

I think I may have destroyed the seal in my attempt.  Would appreciate some guidance on what I should be doing now.

[rutger kohler]

Hi Andy, I can't answer your question about whether the M130 oil seal is the same size but looking at the outside diameter of the seal, in your photo, it looks like only the first two or three rings of the OD seal area have been affected so should be all right.  From memory my front oill seal had the sizes printed on the front face of the oil seal?  Also any driving force needs to be even all around the outside diameter  of the seal at the same time.  Engine looks spiffing.

cheers

Rodger K

[andyburns]

Cheers Rodger, I am still a bit stumped as I did use even force.  Have also done this seal on two or three engines now while in the car and cant remember problems with any of them.
 
Suppose I just have to keep hammering away at this seal and see if I can get it to slip in somehow.  I have another one on the way from Buds so no huge drama other than it will delay me another week or so. 

[andyburns]

Had another couple attempts at getting the seal in and damaged it enough now that I am not comfortable putting it back in.  The only upside of this is now I could try out a few things (with a bit more force) on the seal and treat it as a learning exercise.    Quickly discovered what I was doing wrong!  Being too much of a neat freak is sometimes a bad thing.  When I packed the grease into the seal race I was wiping the excess off and inadvertently cleaned the seal lip of lubricant.  Its the first thing that makes contact with the crankshaft journal so to get the lip to slip over its important to either leave the lip greased or wipe some grease over the journals front nose.

Without lubrication the lip was catching and creating resistance causing the seal to buckle on one side and dig into its housing.   The minute I lubed the seal it sailed on.  At least I am now confident I can install the next one. 

Live and learn.

On a side note after my failure I decided to light the fire as its getting really cold down this way.  While chopping up some firewood a piece flew off, flew about five meters and smashed a large ranch slider window.  220 dollars latter.  Money that could have purchased half a ash tray!


 

[tel76]

Andy,
Why do you buy parts from BB, can you not get the genuine article from your local stealer or perish the thought, MB Australia.
With regard to the fitting problem get RK to turn you a spacer that will fit over the front of the crankshaft with an OD equal to the diameter of the seal track or if you have replaced the spacer use the old one and slide it on with the new seal.

[andyburns]

Hey Eric,

Thanks for the reply.  I purchased all the bits and pieces through Buds when I put my order in for the interior.   I have always avoided using local MB dealer as the prices are so ridiculously expensive.   Buying even OEM stuff from the states is usually half the price if you shop around.  An example is that little nut for the handbrake.   I also thought it would be more economical this way combining all the shipping.  Had no idea that they would ship me non OEM seal kits.  I don't know if it matters too much does it?   Don't have enough experience to know good from bad. Interested to know more negative experiences around aftermarket sets.

I get what your saying about the spacer ring.  I have never needed one before but I can see how it would make the job much easier.  Is this something you consider to be imperative to get the seal in without damaging it.  I am aware that even minor damage to this type of seal on installation can lead to eventual failure.   I think every seal I have installed has leaked after a couple of years.  Guess it could be down to me damaging the seals on the way in.  The first one I ever did lasted about 5 minutes.  I didn't know about packing it with grease and it burnt itself out in no time the first time I started the motor.  I am no mechanic that's for sure.

I have read about quite a few guys replacing the spacer.   Also read about the spacer not being sealed to the crank well enough and oil seeping between.  I wasn't planning on replacing mine as its in pretty good condition with only slight tell signs where the seal was running.  Do you think I should I be replacing this and if so why?

I really want to get this right as it always seems to be the main culprit of leaks and appreciate all your help and advice.  If you ever need any advice on writing software feel free to ask.

 

[tel76]

Andy,
If the rubbing surface on the spacer is not worn/marked then there is no need to replace it.
As a matter of interest if your spacer is marked and you feel you want to replace it, you can always remove it and refit it in the reverse direction, the lip of the seal will then run on an unworn part of the spacer. This would save you visiting you local dealer.
If RK can turn you down a spacer as I indicated it does ensure you do not damage the seal.

[andyburns]

Eric, thats fantastic advice.  Will double check the running surface tonight and make a decsion.  RK is currently off on holiday so  can't really wait around.  I need to push ahead and keep things moving.  I am worried at this wait the body will have rusted away before I am finished.