Restoration Difficulty Level

[andyburns]

Figured it out.  It was the seal.  The first time I tried to drive the seal in I damaged it using a large pipe.  Its actually imploded the side wall of the seal and the dust seal has been effectively bent back closer to the inner lip.  It wasn't until I compared the old and the new seal that the subtle difference became apparent.

I spent a couple of hours cleaning off the pan and block of the threebond sealant I used the first time.  Its amazing stuff and stick like the proverbial to a blanket. 

Without the upper pan in place the seal popped really easily into the half housing.  I used the old sleeve to help.  Doing it the way the application of the additional sealant is definitely applied in a far superior manner than pressing the seal in from the front which wipes off most of the sealant.

Lloyd was 100% correct in saying this is the far easier.  Everything flew together and aligned itself perfectly with no force required and no risk of damaging the seal.  The only other technique I would now trust is the one mbzse pointed out using the front bolt and a special tool to press the new seal in a really controlled manner.

In reflection I totally screwed my first seal probably in the first 30 seconds of the first attempt with uneven and to much force.

[tel76]

From the last picture the oil sealing lip of the seal appears to only just go onto the sleeve, from what I see on your picture, your problems are not over.
You seem to be giving more importance to the outer lip, it is the inner lip that is important.
I will ask this question again, did you measure the length of the sleeve as it does not appear to be long enough or there is a problem somewhere else.

[andyburns]

Eric,  I will investigate further.  Would you agree with me that if the inner and outer lip of the seal are only 10mm apart from each other, and if the sleeve and the shoulder of the timing wheel meet exactly in the middle of the seal lips, then the inner lip of the seal will only be running 5mm from the end of the sleeve?

Eric also the sleeve must be the right length as the entire assembly is within +1mm of the length of the crank shaft it runs on.   If this isn't right please please pull me up.

[tel76]

Andy,
From the last picture above if the installation sleeve had been pushed all the way in, ie beyond the inner lip on removal all the grease would have been removed from the installation sleeve. As it is it looks like the inner lip is not located on the crakshaft sleeve.
Can you take a picture with the installation sleeve removed so that we can see the inner lip and get some idea how far it is seated on the sleeve ?

[andyburns]

Hi Eric,  I here what your saying but still think the magnification of the photo may be throwing you.  In the photo it look like your looking at the back wall of the seal but it is in fact actually the front face of the sleeve.  

I would say the front face your looking at is no more than 3-4mm from the front seal lip.  I agree with you the sleeve is 17mm.  The seal is probably around 12 from shoulder to shoulder and around 10mm from lip to lip.  

I think the photo magnification may have thrown you somewhat.  If you look at the photo below with the seal installed on the spare sleeve it puts it into context.  Then look at the grease smear on the spare sleeve I used to install the seal.  This accurately represents how far the lip is from the shoulder of the sleeve.  Bare in mind the entire sleeve is only 17mm I think I am probably 4-5mm from the lip giving 5-6mm overlap onto the sleeve for the running surface of the inner lip.  

If you look carefully at the factory diagram I posted this seems about right.  If your assertions were correct and the inner lip was only just running, or not running on the sleeve then my grease dip stick approach would show around 10mm of the 17mm of the installation sleeve would be covered with grease.

Hope all this makes sense to you and again if I am missing something obvious let me know.

[andyburns]

Been busy this week writing software.  Not much time for the car but I did manage to get out into the bead blaster again and finish of the very last lot of engine nuts and bolts that need gold plating.  Also decided to finish off the power steering and fit it up before the engine goes back.  Given I have never put an engine in a 113 before, only taken one out,  I am a bit nervous about putting too much back on the engine and making it cumbersome and heavy.  Wondering what the right balance is to make thing easy for myself.  I have decided not to mate the gear box up but put it back in afterwards.  I will probably be putting the engine in by myself so guess this is a situation where less is more if you get my gist.

Also decided to pull as much stuff off the injection pump for replating as I dare.  It was going so beautifully before I took it all apart I am a bit jittery about upsetting anything.  Have decided to leave all the throttle arms in place and paint them.  No worth the risk of stuffing something up.  Most of this stuff isn't visible from the top of the engine either.  One lesson I learnt from the 108.  Spent an eternity on the pump for that.  It looks awesome on the stand but once it goes back into the car you loose 90% of your hard work under a mass of pipes.  I will get it to 80% and slam it back in.

[andyburns]

Just about to pull the pin on my last big shipment to finish off all the bits and pieces I need to sort.  Some very expensive things that I have been holding off on.  Defies belief that I am just about to drop almost 700 dollar NZ for an ash tray and I have never had a cigarette in my mouth in my life. 

I have been busy pulling apart my W108 parts car which has so gracefully given up her internal organs for her much daintier little sister.  I think he deserves a medal dont you. 

In any event the sale of the W108 engine, gearbox and diff will pay for this last shipment.  Finger crossed its the last and I wont have to explain any oversights to the wife.

Wood Set                             745      
Speaker mounting kit          18      
Speaker Grill                           20      
Brake Nut                         48      
Ash Tray                              486      
Brake slave boot                 12      
Seat knob                              50      
Interior Lamp                        58      
      
Total                            1437   USD   
            Shipping       200

[andyburns]

Just about to put my injection pump back in and time it up.  I have been reading over the BBB and found the section regarding the early 230sl 6 plunger unit.  It all seems simple enough.  I installed a couple of 280se unit with no difficulties but what perplexes me in the BBB for the 230 is that they start off by talking about setting piston 6  20 degrees on its suction stroke ATDC.  Then almost as a side comment in brackets they start talking about 1st cylinder 20 degrees after ignition TDC).   On the surface this seems to be an identical position they are talking about.

This has unnerved me a little.  I understand that the two will be in sync but why are they referring to number six as the primary measure when number one is universally used to time up engines.

Its probably obvious but can someone explain it to me why they have described it this way.

ANSWERED OWN QUESTION.

Just reading on very sleepy eyes.  After reading over the whole section discovered that the six cylinder injection pump, unique to the 230sl, have pipes arranged in the reverse order compared to other mercedes injection engines ie pipe 1 of the injection pump leads to valve 6 of the engine.  Wonder why they did this.  Probably so you could time the pump off number 1 ignition settings???

Sorry to bother you guys.  Tried to delete this post but couldn't find a way. 

[paults1]

My 230SL FI pump was offset 20 degrees by the PO. This is a common error I have read about for those not in the know.

[andyburns]

paults1, please elaborate.  All the mercedes factory documentation I have clearly indicates the pump is always offset to 20 degrees ATDC on the suction stroke.  If I have missed something please please let me know.  Cheers Andy

[paults1]

Sorry Andy, It was not set at 20 degrees. It was set at 0, meaning it was off by 20 degrees.  I need an auditor for my replies.

[andyburns]

Engine tidy up is coming along well.  Picked up the last of the plated nuts and bolts for the injector pump and started putting this back together as well.  I decided not bead blast the injector pump this time around.  I have done it to two other W108 pumps before.  I really takes a lot of effort to keep out as much of the media as possible and then to completely flush the unit latter.  I elected to just scrub the **** out of it with wax and grease remover and scotch pads.  It works to a point but will never get the same crisp effect of the beads.  Never the less its a vast improvement and will look newish once installed.  I also didn't end up taking off and upsetting the accelerator linkage arms on the side of the pump but masked them up and painted them with epoxy etch followed by gold paint.  No one other than you guys will ever know and the paint will probably provide much better long term protection than gold plating.

All in all I am happy with the engine, not perfect but presentable. 

When all the paint is dried I will install the injector pump and hard fuel lines, drop the motor on the ground and put the flywheel and clutch assembly back on.

I am toying with the idea of bolting the gearbox back on and installing in one piece.  Anyone want to tell me about their experience doing it this way.  Always interested in your opinions.  Currently my thinking is that I dont want to scratch my paint if I attempt this on my own.

[Cees Klumper]

Nice going Andy, congratulations that it's almost there now.
FWIW I believe having read some consistent advice here that it is better to remove/install the engine with the gearbox attached. That is how I did mine and it worked fine; just remember to hook up your speedo cable before everything is in its final position because it will be much more difficult to attach (at least it proved to be on my 280 SL automatic) later.

[Garry]

Andy what did you do with your rocker cover, it looks very grey.  Did you peen it?

I put my engine back in with gear box attached from underneath, or should I say someone else, several others, did it for me together with the whole front end from underneath.

Garry

[andyburns]

Hey Gary,  the cover is a correct early sand cast part.  Very distinctive irregular almost hand cast look to it.  Very very groovy.  They are a very rare item.  I searched for ages for one and in the end drmb swapped me one for parts I had.  They had a very thin wall and were quite prone to cracking.  I think quite a few would have been biffed and replaced with the more robust latter ones.  I am really interested to know what date they super seeded this part.

I have spent vast amounts of time on this part.  I has been laboriously bead blasted two or three times to get an even finish.  It looks beautiful and will really cap off the restoration giving the engine bay a more 'vintage' look.  I think it looks quite gray in the photo due to the lighting and camera flash.   Just perfectly clean alloy. 

Cees, when you put your engine in did you drop in from the top or like Gary install the subframe complete with engine.   I have already installed my sub frame so have to hoist in over the top.  With the additional length of the gearbox attached I am a bit nervous I will interfere, in a very nasty way, with the paint work. 

I appreciate the automatic box is a pig to put in afterwards.  I have done this on my own with my 280se.  That was a ****.  But the manual gearbox is much lighter so I was thinking it would be ok to hoist up on my chest.  I would love a photo of the two being put in together to give me a bit of perspective.

[GGR]

You will need the balance bar to tilt the engine and trans while sliding it in.

Don't forget to disconnect the steering relay arm as the bottom of the bellhousing may catch on it.

[andyburns]

The Morning of IJP

Set about putting the Injection Pump back in this morning.  Took half an hour to review the BBB and went to work.  Everything went smoothly and now am in a strong position to put the engine back in the car in the next couple of days.  I dont think I will put too much more back on.  I would love to put the manifolds back but think it will make bolting up the right hand drive engine mount a complete mare.  Interested in everyones thoughts on this as well.

Decided to use a thin smear of 3bond sealant on the two gaskets to be double sure of an oil tight seal.  For some reason every time I have done this using the factory prescribed technique of just smearing grease on the gaskets prior to installation, I have had leaks.  Time will tell but I am quite confident the 3bond will sort the issue.  Love the stuff.

I am putting up some pictures here in case I have cocked something up. Feel free to lampoon my efforts if I have done anything stupid.

[Tomnistuff]

Am I missing something?  I've been retired for 13 years, but, Andy, your Pagoda is older than that, so it should not have changed since I retired - joke!

I think in your first photo of the crankshaft and IP timing for installation, the marker is actually set at 20 degrees BTC, not ATC.  Unless, of course, down below the engines turn backwards when you drive on the wrong side of the road.

Anyway, if the engine turns counter-clockwise when seen from the driver's seat, it turns clockwise from the position of your photo.  That means the TDC ( 0 ) point should have passed the pointer by 20 degrees if it is to be timed to 20 degrees After Top Center.

Please, someone.  If I am wrong, tell me quick.  I would hate to be responsible for, as Andy says, "Cocking something up".

Tom Kizer
Quebec

[andyburns]

Hey Tom,  I here what your saying and will investigate.  I did follow the BBB though.  Also on the other side of the TDC mark there arn't many timing mark ie it only goes back to about 10 degrees in the opposite direction.

I have scanned in the page from the BBB I am using.  Its a very old version and covers several different models including diesel engines but has a section on the 230sl and talks about the only difference from the photo being 20 degrees rather than 30.

Again if I have missed something hit me on the back of the head with a large plank of wood.... hard.

[tel76]

Tom is correct, in the picture the crankshaft is set at 20 degrees before TDC.
Also the crankshaft is marked 20 degrees after TDC.

[andyburns]

Guys,  am more than happy to eat humble pie on this one.  After reading the BBB another couple of times it was obvious I was following instruction for a diesel motor.  Thanks both of you, really appreciate the support.

Went out and put it right.   Even managed to save the gaskets.  The sealant hadn't fully set and I was able to clean them up and reuse.

 Hopefully its the last major stuff up I make before I turn the key.

[Cees Klumper]

Hi Andy - I dropped the engine in from above. I did not have a balancing bar and just put extra straps on the engine and hoist, all the straps positioned such that I could tilt the engine as required. I'm sure a levelling bar would have been a bit easier. I don't recall having any concerns about touching the car's paintwork, but then my engine bay was not as clean as yours. good luck with the install.

[Tomnistuff]

Hi Andy,

I thought I remembered something about the photo that you used.  Although not in your photo above, my apparently later version of the BBB shows the same photo but also states in the paragraph above it that the photo shows the timing mark set at 26 degrees Before Top Dead Center.  After top center would be on the other side of the 0 degree (TDC) mark.  The diesel turns the same direction as the gasoline engine.

By the way, Andy,  the best justification for all of us being in this group is that by double checking one another, we are less likely to make a mistake.  You should know that after 34 years in the auto industry and 13 years retired, I distrusted my memory enough to look up the direction of rotation before I posted.  Although I instinctively knew that I was right, I am now old enough to have made lots of mistakes, so I trust myself less and less and decided to verify before posting.

By the way, I'm still checking what you have done each time before I go into the garage to attempt it myself.  Keep up the excellent work.

Tom Kizer
Quebec

[andyburns]

Thanks Tom, again your help is very very much appreciated.   After your first tip I went out and looked closely at the fan pitch to figure out which way the engine rotated.  Also then double checked with the firing order matching up to the cam shaft lobes.  Strangely I couldn't find anything in the BBB which made reference to the direction of rotation.  I guess in the day it was considered to obvious to bother!  

Tom I know what you mean about old age.  I think its come to me prematurely.  I am now struggling to remember where I put parts down 24 hours ago let alone stuff I was doing 13 years ago.  I think you must have a very good memory or more likely I am suffering from early dementia.

Interestingly the timing markings on the front pulley go to exactly 20 degrees  ATDC.  I cant help but think that the only reason they put any ATDC marks on it was for the IP setup.  

I am now pooping my pants that I have made the same mistake with my 280SE.  It run really nicely but is running a little rich and runs hot in heavy traffic.  I wonder if this could be sympathetic of incorrect IP setup.   I cant help but wonder how many other newbies have made the same mistake.  I have read the that the IP setting are not that critical so the car may well run 'ok' but have other associated detrimental side effects?

Cees, thank you also for your experience.  I have taken that on board and will have a good hard think about it today prior to my install.  I would dearly love to do it all in one hit.  One thing that is bluntly obvious is that its 100 times easier to work on the engine when its out of the car.  That was punctuated last night with it only taking me about 20 minutes to pull the IP off reset and refit.  In the car the same job would take a couple of hours.  

My body is feeling quite battered at the moment and I really don't like the idea of struggling with things unnecessarily so I may well just take your suggestion to heart.  

[GGR]

Of course you want the IP timing correct as per specification. But as a side note, timing for injection is much less critical than for ignition. You still have some debate going on about when is the best timing for fuel delivery. Some say it is best delivered when the intake valve is still closed, other say open. I went through this when I installed EFI on my 5.0L and at the end it is a try and error process, not all engines react the same way. To give you an idea, the CIS system that was installed on later Mercedes and on number of European GTIs stands for Continuous Injection System. Basically injectors are delivering fuel constantly, and the distributor acts as a tap which opens more or less, depending on manifold pressure.