Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 947198 times)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1275 on: November 24, 2014, 07:39:05 »
Finished off the clean up of the injection pipes this morning.  Decided to plate up all three sets in case any of the pipes block up again. 

I then did huge 'recky' around all my other parts looking for the very very last lot of plating to do. Hauled the exhaust system out and pulled off all the clamps to be blasted and plated.   I also pulled out the petrol tank breather thingy and grabbed all the pipes and clamps to blast and plate. 

Fingers crossed I have seen the last of the blaster.  I think I said that a few months back but in hindsight that statement was a bit over ambitious.

Blasted and dragged all the bits into the electroplater.    Talked to him about the blocked pipes.  He has seen the problem before and thinks it was caused by a build up of unlike chemicals in the pipe.  This time he is going to fill the pipes with water before he begins.  Sounded quite strange, and difficult to achieve, but I just left it in his hands.  Fingers crossed I dont end up with three blocked sets.  That would 'rip my undies'

Before I dropped the pipes I spent quite a while blowing out ever one individually to make sure that they were all clear of any obstructions.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1276 on: November 24, 2014, 07:52:19 »
Moved on this afternoon to my hub caps.  Have been reading with interest the current thread on the topic.  Decided to mask up by hand rather than use the clubs mask.  Took about 20 minutes to mask a single cap.

One thing I am struggling with at the moment is the secondary color of the hard top and caps.  The new second hand caps came prepainted in a gray/blue hue.  Really really like it up against the silver.   Wondering if it would look more subtle and classy than flat mercedes black.  Also I would only have to mask and paint two caps as the other two are so good I could run with them as is.

I probably will just run with black as I am terrible with visualizing color combinations.    
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Scottcorvette

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1277 on: November 24, 2014, 08:45:27 »
Hi Andy

I like the grey blue colour.

Long time since I have seen sheepskin seat covers, my Dad always had them in his Corvette, this is it in the mid/late seventies in Brighton.

GGR

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1278 on: November 24, 2014, 08:54:31 »
I like the blue too, looks very refined with the metallic grey. But then, what color is your hard top?

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1279 on: November 24, 2014, 09:20:57 »
Scott,  The sheep skins are out of a 108 I wrecked.  Come in perfect for protecting the new leather.  I have however come to really like them!  They are so comfortable.  Perhaps your dad knew a thing or two! 

I suppose living in New Zealand, where there are about 6 sheep to every person I should be more supportive of them but think they will probably go.  Perhaps they might be pulled out if I do any long trips. 

GGR the hard top is currently a non standard gold so I am going to pull it down to bare metal and restore it.   Am wondering what effect a non factory approved paint scheme will have on the resale if it ever comes to it?

I was really taken with the following picture of 113 painted in a non standard teal color.  Think its a very subdued and classy look.   Again still love the two tone black over silver.  Dont think you can go wrong with the tried and tested.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Scottcorvette

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1280 on: November 24, 2014, 21:15:44 »
I really like the teal colour too. It is the colour I fancied painting mine at the start. I couldn't find out what it was.

Those sheepskin covers really were nice. I think I might try to find a set!!!

When I was a kid my dad made a back rest for me so I could sit on the park brake console between him and my mum, that had a little sheepskin cover on it too! You'd get arrested now!!

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1281 on: November 24, 2014, 21:24:38 »
Quote from: andyburns
../... the following picture of 113 painted in a non standard teal color../...
I'm not sure I follow you here Andy...  Are you referring to the top picture of the three in your posting? It is an official factory photo, well known.
Thus, the vehicle is indeed featuring a factory standard paint,; 906 light blue metallic IMHO.
However, I have seen the picture often reproduced in books and magazine articles, there appearing in many hues ranging from silver to light green
/Hans in Sweden
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 21:36:51 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1282 on: November 24, 2014, 23:00:34 »
Hans, thats good to know.  Probably some differences when they scanned the photo.  Definitely looks more in the green spectrum than the blue spectrum to my eye.  In saying that I have an appalling eye when it comes to color.  Whatever the case I think the car looks absolutely beautiful in this color as it appears in the photo.

This morning I have been trying to figure out what the color is of the hub caps I own.  I reacon either 190G (grahite gray) or 170G (anthracite gray).  They are both very similar to my eye.  I have really fallen in love with the color up along side 180G that the color is painted.  Am seriously thinking about painting the hard top and the caps this color.  Everyone that has seen it in the flesh has agreed for the same reason that I like the fore-mentioned factory photo.  It just tones down the look of the car.  Very subdued.

It will look fantastic against the wooly sheepskins as well  ;)   I think Scott and I could set a bit of a trend here!





Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

GGR

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1283 on: November 24, 2014, 23:06:54 »
I see them blue rather that darker gray. Blue goes very well with lighter metallic gray, especially with a blue interior. But with a black interior, a different shade of gray (anthracite?) darker than the body would marry very well.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1284 on: November 24, 2014, 23:16:33 »
Hi GGR,

Are you looking at the sample silver photo I posted (the complete one sitting outside) or a few of my posts back to the caps I actually have.  They are definitely a shad of gray.  Will take some more photos.  I agree with you that I need a very dark gray to marry with the black interior. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

getsmart

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1285 on: November 28, 2014, 02:41:12 »
Andy the sheep quote really made me laugh :) perhaps the peeps on here from far and wide of NZ and Austrlia haven't heard the sheep jokes ;)

Rgds, Joe

Scott,  The sheep skins are out of a 108 I wrecked.  Come in perfect for protecting the new leather.  I have however come to really like them!  They are so comfortable.  Perhaps your dad knew a thing or two! 

I suppose living in New Zealand, where there are about 6 sheep to every person I should be more supportive of them but think they will probably go.  Perhaps they might be pulled out if I do any long trips. 

GGR the hard top is currently a non standard gold so I am going to pull it down to bare metal and restore it.   Am wondering what effect a non factory approved paint scheme will have on the resale if it ever comes to it?

I was really taken with the following picture of 113 painted in a non standard teal color.  Think its a very subdued and classy look.   Again still love the two tone black over silver.  Dont think you can go wrong with the tried and tested.
Finding the red car
1964 230sl Restoration Project

Paul & Dolly

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1286 on: November 28, 2014, 09:00:21 »
Ah Joe .. please do not start on sheep jokes....

Australia, New Zealand & Wales,
three great rugby playing nations...


where men are men
& sheep are afraid !

Paul
Paul (located in Cardiff - Wales - UK)
1967 Early 250 SL (Auto) White
Mitsubishi i Car
Toyota RAV 4  Hybrid AWD
1936 Alvis Firebird (Gone............)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1287 on: December 05, 2014, 08:14:03 »
Finally got my injection pipes and other bits and pieces back from the electroplater today.  Its the third attempt to get them right.  First time they came out really powdery, second time really red, third time really green.

First thing I did when I got home was to blow all the remains of chemicals out of them and push through half a can of CRC to prevent any flash rusting on the insides.

Looked very closely at each set and picked the best.  Happened to be one from a 280se.  Slight differences in the fitting to the early 230sl pipes.  I think the newer design is better having more of the hex to get the 17mm spanner on.

Also got back the breather pipes I made up and various other bits and pieces.  Hopefully the last trip to the platers and the last of the bead blaster!

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1288 on: December 05, 2014, 08:28:12 »
Hoping someone can help with this one.  I have an issue with the horn interfering with the power steering pump.  The car didn't come with power steering,  I have retrofitted it with the correct 113 equipment.   If would appreciate some photos of the mounting position if anyone has any.  I am wondering if he bracket is shorter and mounted at a different angle.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1289 on: December 05, 2014, 09:28:30 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../... an issue with the horn interfering with the power steering pump.  The car didn't come with power steering,  I have retrofitted it.../...
There was an additional bracket, some 100mm long, fitted to mount the horn at the factory when SA422 (power steering) was on the cars build sheet. This allows the horn to clear the power steering pump.
/Hans in Sweden
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 12:10:14 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1290 on: December 05, 2014, 18:06:24 »
Thanks Hans.  Appreciate that :)

Has anyone got a photo of the bracket and where the horn end up relative to the other one.   I am picking that looking from the front the horn now no longer appear to be symmetrically placed relative to the respective body positions?  If someone with a power steering equipped 230 would mind I would dearly love some photos.  Have been staring at this problem for some months now wondering how to solve it.  The factory brackets are not that simple to extend.  They are a kind of sandwich design of three or so plates. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

GGR

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1291 on: December 05, 2014, 21:04:51 »
The location of the horns is original on my car (!!!) if it can help:


mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1292 on: December 05, 2014, 21:36:49 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../...Has anyone got a photo of the bracket and where the horn end up relative to the other one../...
See attached, I borrowed the 230SL picture to mark the position of the additional bracket. Feb 2015: I also now put in a picture of the said bracket.
Note, this is for a LHD car with power steering; I am not so familiar with RHD version but the p/s pump is in the same position so should be similar
/Hans in Sweden
.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 13:44:02 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1293 on: December 06, 2014, 06:29:01 »
Thanks guys,  very useful.  Hans that last photo in particular has answered all my questions.  If you look at the problem the only plausible solution is to drop the left hand horn.  It looks a bit funny though which is why I wasn't sure if the factory would have done it.  Will take another close look at it tomorrow and see if I can fabricate up a tidy solution.

Cheers again guys.  Appreciated.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1294 on: December 10, 2014, 08:52:59 »
Its been a hard week.  The fuel system has got the better of me after a huge amount of effort to prep it for an engine start. 

Started last week when I tried to fire up the fuel pump.  Very quickly I realized it has seized and was drawing about 10A.  I was aware of the damage that could be caused and quickly took off all power after a few quick measurements with the meter.  Sinking feeling quickly ensued.

I decided that I had no choice but to crack the base plate and take a quick look.  At this point I hadn't taken the time to read the technical manual in here or the BBB so I am a bit worried that I may have damaged the internals with the freeing up of the motor shaft.  It didn't take much force and I gently rocked the empellor backwards and forwards a dozen time by hand which was enough to free whatever was causing the jam.

I noticed the main o ring seal for the plate was in bad shape so to get me going I raided my spare short W108 pump. 

Fired up the pump again and measured it pumping 1l of fuel at the pump outlet in about six seconds.  Thought I would be good from that point.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1295 on: December 10, 2014, 09:09:55 »
Decided a long time ago that before I fired the engine I wanted to see the cold start valve physically spray a nice steady cone.  Over the past year I have read about so many issues with this component causing all sorts of grief.  Good piece of mind.  I have never seen a photo of the spray pattern on the site so I was keen to get a good one for everyone's future reference.

When I fired everything up I couldn't even get a dribble out of the spray nozzles.  The pressure at this point seemed to be the problem.  I have however very little experience gauging  pressure and was now unsure what the issue was. 

Talked over the issue with Rodger who very kindly came over this morning with a pressure gauge.  Used it this afternoon to measure up the pressure at the valve.  I have taken the first fitting which screws into the CSV housing out of the equation as it has a very very fine gauze in it which I though may have been part of the problem.  Still unsure if its obstructing.

In any event even with out the filter I am measuring up at 8.5psi which is more than 3psi down on the minimum pressure.

The BBB outlines a few additional things to do if you come up short of pressure.  I decided that I would go right to the horses mouth, so to speak, and measure the pressure at the pump outlet.  If this was down then I think its a safe bet that everything else will be low as well.  Let me know if this logic is wrong.

The pressure the pump does indeed seem to be low at around 13psi.  The BBB seems to state that the pressure on the outlet of the Fuel Injection Pump should be around 19psi minimum so I think the writing is on the wall in regards to the state of my pump.

I would really appreciate some advice on where to go from  here.

I would dearly love to keep everything original but I suppose I have the short style W108 pump which I can try.  According to the BBB it was a factory recommended retrofit for vapor locking issues so I guess it would be ok.  However chances are that the spare short pump is also quite tired.

Another question is should I try and repair myself.  I really cant afford a new pump at this stage so am looking for a low cost solution.  Where do you get the repair kits from and how much do they cost?
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1296 on: December 10, 2014, 13:03:24 »
Hi, Andy,

From experience, my 230 was running fine with about 8 psi at the valve.
The spray pattern from the CSV is more of a squirt than a fine spray.
One nozzle blocked in the pic.

Naj
68 280SL

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1297 on: December 11, 2014, 09:16:01 »
Naj, thanks mate.  That pic was actually very helpful to me today.  I started the day by trying to flush the cold valve pipe with several liters of fuel.  One thing I noticed was that there was still a large amount of sediment in the bottom of the jar after each flush.  That amount would really block up the cold start injectors if it got passed the fine mesh filter.  I was also still at a point where 8psi would hardly push fuel through the mesh filter even though I had already soaked it for a week and also blown several hundred cubic meter of air through it.

Not knowing what is normal has been my nemesis on the fuel leg of my restoration.   There are so many aspect where if any one is wrong then the whole system falls down.  Two filter at the rear that could be blocked, the fuel delivery pump not delivering either enough volume or pressure, the main fuel filter potentially being blocked, hoses being kinked, the main fuel hard lines having obstructions, the cold start valve filter being blocked, the cold start valve not sealing, the cold start injectors being blocked.  Any one of these could stop the system let alone a combination.

Today I had a combination. 

First up I went to work on the csv steel pipes.  I decided to use excess pressure and water to blast out any remaining muck.  Made up an adapter out of an old injector and another W108 fitting which happened to have exactly the same thread as my 1700psi Kartcher water blaster.

Worked beautifully.  Left the pipes constantly blasting for a 20 minute period.  Was quite entertaining to see the huge rooster tail coming out of the old Merc pipes.  Small minds I guess!

I blew the pipe dry with compressed air and tried it again back in the car and to my delight all the fuel coming out was crystal clear with no sign of any debris.

Still the same problem though.  The pressure was barely enough to get the fuel through the fine mesh filter let alone out the injectors.  So I decided that I had nothing to loose and pulled the hose back off and blew 1700psi through the filter for 10 minutes.  I could tell instantly it had made a huge difference by just blowing through it. 

Hooked  everything back up in the car and I now have two nicely formed spray patterns with 8psi.

At this point I think it will be good enough to start the car.  Certainly a massive improvement over when I took it all apart.  I have no idea how it functioned when I got it.

The day was going really well until I went to do a full test.  Until this point I had removed the plunger in the csv valve so I didn't need the csv solenoid engaged to squirt fuel.  Discovered that my csv is faulty.  Desperately need another one in order to start the car.  I have a solenoid off a spare 280 csv but discovered that the plunger pin is slightly longer on the 230 variant.  I have a working second hand 280sl solenoid if anyone wants to swap for 230 one.  I will throw in the whole csv to sweeten the deal!

I guess I have made good progress irrespective of the solenoid.  I can now bolt up the csv and move on with the throttle linkage.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Shvegel

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1298 on: December 12, 2014, 03:31:45 »
Andy,
Any Bosch numbers on your CSV?  I have an early 280 CSV complete I can't use but need to check the numbers. I could have put my hand on it a dozen times this Summer but I cleaned the attic of my garage...  I'll see if I can find it tomorrow.  If no numbers post a good shot of the side away from the manifold.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1299 on: December 12, 2014, 08:40:24 »
Hey Shvelgel, thanks so much for the offer of help.  Unfortunately the 280 csv is different to the 230.  Much smaller round base plate and the actual valve fitting is significantly different using a ball bearing instead of a plunger to seal the internal chamber.   You wont have problems selling it though.   The solenoid is also different as well.  The plunger bolt is shorter on the 280 version.

Today I went on a mission to replace my solenoid with a second hand unit.  I swapped my complete CSV 280 unit with a complete 230 equivalent with Kev from Startech here in NZ.  Spent all day refurbishing the entire unit.  When I got it the jets were completely blocked.  Couldn't blow any air through at all with the compressor.  I mucked around with it using all the tricks I had employed on mine with no success.  Decided to use my waterblaster technique to see if it would have any effect. 

Made up a blocking plate with the base plate of the old solenoid.  Did some very dodgy welding to block the plunger hold and strengthen the plate.  I was a bit worried about excess pressure and used the small bleed hole in the internal chamber to release a bit of the pressure.

Tentatively started the blaster up and watched as the two spray patterns very quickly took shape.  Initially only one of the jets up unblocked but very quickly the second one came to life and over time established into a very consistent cone.  I left the blaster going on it for a good 20 minutes.

In the mean time I went to work on the solenoid.  Blasted it and painted it up.  Electrically tested it.  All was looking good.  In the end I decided not to swap over the new csv and to just bold the solenoid up to the original csv I fitted up yesterday.

Tested it and all seemed fine.  Then... drip drip drip.  After a bit of a look it was apparent the petrol was coming from the very top electrical screw of the solenoid.  From my dissection of the old solenoid I discovered that plunger pin is sealed from the electrical internal and the main case by a small seal.  This seal on the new solenoid was obviously shot.  It would seem that the day has been a bit of a write off.  At least I am gradually educating myself on the ins and outs of the 113 cold start fuel system.  To be honest it seem it been a bit of a baptism of fire.

Not to sure what I can do now. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car