Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level (Read 947018 times)

tel76 · « **Reply #1325 on:** December 24, 2014, 16:17:42 »

No, nothing like that.
As stated the correct MB tool locks the flywheel with the special tool inserted in the starter location.

WRe · « **Reply #1326 on:** December 24, 2014, 16:49:38 »

.. or something self made
http://www.mercedes-scheune.de/index.php/vollrestauration-w111-coupe/step-5-motor-achsen/dichtring-kurbelwelle-vorne-erneuern
...WRe

kampala · « **Reply #1327 on:** December 24, 2014, 18:59:48 »

this looks like what tel76 may be describing?

http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm#engine

andyburns · « **Reply #1328 on:** December 24, 2014, 20:16:42 »

First up I want to say happy xmas to all you guys. Its been a pretty up and down year for me but one positive constant is the help and support I have had from you all. So a big thanks and xmas wishes to you all

Have spent a good morning with the family unwrapping gifts and partaking in far too much food. No doubt this will continue for the rest of the day. I will have plenty of stored energy to tackle the engine start in the coming days.

I have been thinking about this crank bolt and considering what everyone has offered. Also been thinking back to another recent thread about one of our members who damaged the pins and pin housings on the front of the crank. Makes sense it had turned into an absolute nightmare to fix.

In relation to this front bolt and the technique to tighten it I am worried if I employ the technique of holding the damper rather than the crank that all the load would be applied to the two tiny dowel pins holding the damper to the crank. If they sheared or started to oval the crankshaft holes then I could be in for a world of hurt.

The factory technique of holding the crank rather than the damper makes more sense to me. As you tighten the large crank bolt down on the damper the turning load on the pins would surely be less as the body which your trying to screw the bolt into cannot turn and is taking the brunt. The other way around when your clamping force of the bolt bears down on the damper it will turn. If it is prevented but the crank can turn freely then in my mind all the force is going to bear on the dowels.

I am not an engineer so may be well out of line here. Feel free to buzz in.

I think the latter version went to a woodruff key which perhaps were better placed to accept the 200nm of force required to torque it up.

I am so close to starting my engine its not funny and this last little xmas curve ball needs to be 'safely' overcome. At this stage my gut tells me the factory type tool Kampala and tel76 are talking about is the way to go. This will probably me a lengthy delay for me.

I am quite flabbergasted that Mercedes made it so hard to do this as to conduct the routine maintenance of replacing the main crank seal this bolt would have to come off and on during the operation. It seems quite long winded to have to take the starter motor out to do this. I am as always interested to know if this was a design flaw that they rectified on the M130.

andyburns · « **Reply #1329 on:** December 24, 2014, 22:29:40 »

In addition to the crank bolt I would also love to solve the mystery of where the tool roll mounts. I have taken a couple of pictures of my boot and as you can see the lug wrench and the centering tool are mounted low, almost on the boot floor. The slots in the back of the tool roll are suppose to slot into the lug wrench. That is how the W108 works anyway. But the W108 has mounting points for the wrench much higher in the boot so the tool roll can suspend itself below. Any photos of factory setups would be great.

rutger kohler · « **Reply #1330 on:** December 25, 2014, 00:44:52 »

Hi Andy, looking at your dilemma on tightening the crankshaft bolt, it would be quite difficult to remove the starter and replace it I am thinking. As Tel76 rightly points out that the stresses on two or three teeth on the ring gear would also be quite high although the turning moment (m) from the crankshaft centre to the ring gear teeth is much longer than anything around the damper so the required force (n) would be smaller.

Alternatively if you go to http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/key.htm you can feed in torque data for square keys and get recommeded key sizing. Although this is for square keys if you downrated the answers by 30% (cross sectional area of circle rather than square) you would be in the ball park. I did this for a 25mm diameter shaft with a torque loading of 207 nm and a key length of 20mm and got an answer of 8mm square key. Remember you have two pins or keys not one, so this would be 4mm per key (less 30%). Also having two keys diametrically opposed is immensley more resistant to movement and shear than one.

If you do decide to tighten up using the 3 threaded bolts in the damper I can machine up a ring which will pick these up and leave an inner hole large enough for a socket for the crankshaft nut. We can then weld a bar on to pick up the engine block as in the German solution.

meery Xmas

Rutger K

Greg · « **Reply #1331 on:** December 25, 2014, 11:00:53 »

Hi Andy,
You have the wrong jack for that model. The 230sl have a 2 piece jack where arm of the jack fits where you have the lug wrench at the moment. The lug wrench then fits in the slots of your tool pouch. Then I guess the 2 other mountings are for the warning triangle. Might be wrong, if so please someone corrects.

tel76 · « **Reply #1332 on:** December 25, 2014, 11:57:58 »

The locking tool that Kampala has illustrated is like the one I have, if you decide to obtain one be aware there are several available for different engines(I have four).

ja17 · « **Reply #1333 on:** December 25, 2014, 14:49:21 »

Hello Andy,

You can easily hold the crankshaft by the flywheel. You have the best mechanical advantage back there. There are several places you can lock on to it. Is yours an automatic or standard? Sometimes locking pliers (vice grips) or a heavy C-clamp can hold the flywheel so you can torque the front bolt. I made my own special tool from a piece of old flywheel ring gear, but before that I did it many times without a special tool.

andyburns · « **Reply #1334 on:** December 28, 2014, 09:12:20 »

Thanks guys. Great advice. I have now managed to tighten up the front crank bolt. In the end I took bits and pieces of advice from in here and cobbled up a good solution. Car in first gear with handbrake on. Joes tip of using a g clamp on the flywheel and also prevented the harmonic balancer from turning. Probably gross overkill but am sure my crank pins are still intact.

Today I started by stripping the radiator of all the nasty cheap rattle tin paint. Its pleasantly easy to strip. Only advantage. Scotched back the metal to give a good key and then blew on four coats of high temp ceramic paint. The radiator itself was in excellent condition and must have had recent recore. I am struggling finding the correct bolts for securing it. Can someone tell me if they have an odd ball thread.

Moved onto the power steer issue with the horn not clearing the power steer pump. I took the measurement supplied to me by Hans and made up a extension adapter 75mm long. Took quite some time to weld up and dress back. My welding is pretty average so the end product certainly looks home made. But it will do until I can source a correct factory bracket.

tel76 · « **Reply #1335 on:** December 28, 2014, 10:40:14 »

Andy,
The horn tags are available go to ebay.de I have seen them there.
George has them at Authentic Classics.

andyburns · « **Reply #1336 on:** December 30, 2014, 03:55:09 »

Spent Sunday just tinkering. I timed up the dizzy the best I could and worked on the brakes which should be ready to bleed up in the coming days. The clutch is a different story. Discovered the flexible hose to the slave is perished so I will have to wait for a replacement to be ordered and shipped. Probably delay the first drive by a couple of weeks.

I thought the exhaust was going to be easy. The past 20 hours have proved me wrong. I spent all yesterday unsuccessfully trying to fit them up without interfering at one place or another with the body of the car. It almost drove me to distraction. I almost gave up at 6pm last night but soldiered on into the night. It seemed after quite some tinkering that the pipes needed to be clamped together in one additional place near the front junction of the pipes to get all the distances correct. I made up a new adjustable double sided clamp to bring the two front pipes closer to one another. I have no idea how they got them to fit originally. Perhaps under a hoist things were much easier and the installer perhaps could call on a second pair of hands. No such luck for me. Have been lying on my back with the car sitting on the ground. A few times I tried turning my head and got it jammed I had so little room.

Another reason for the pipes not fitting up correctly was that I had rubber donut hangers that didn't match in strength. They looked the same but one must have been older than the other and it stretched further allowing the other side to pull the exhaust off center. Anyway after being schooled the hard way in the ins and outs of exhaust hanging I finally came up with the correct procedure for my particular exhaust to get it just so. Big relief as it set me up today to start the engine.... so I thought.

I quickly had the radiator mounted back up and worked for a couple of hours getting a decent set of hose clamps together and installed. I have run out of the original type. I thought I would have heaps to finish the job but sadly I have had to revert to modern equivalent to get things moving again. I did use modern Mercedes stainless steel clamps which is somewhat more acceptable than garden variety ones from super cheap auto.

After finishing off this job I now only had the radiator to fill before turning my key for the first time in two years. Other than the antifreeze the car is now full of fluids and I am happy to say that I have not spotted one iota of a leak from the engine, gearbox, diff or fuel tank.

I took the top radiator hose off at the engine to fill the car. Much quicker way then pouring it into the overflow tank. I got to about seven out of ten liters and heard a trickling noise on the floor. A frantic search showed up very quickly that the gush was coming from the small round overflow hole on the underside of the water pump. It wasn't a drip but a solid stream. I am not certain but I think this means that the internal seal that separates the pumps impeller from the bearings is shot big time. I have no other explanation. The pump looked almost new when I painted it up. I really have no explanation as to what has gone on other than a rubber seal gone hard.

I think I had the identical thing happen to me when I restored the 280se.

Can someone let me know if I am correct in my assessment and that I need another water pump.

I am hoping and praying that this is my last 'hick up' and that the engine is going to fire back into life with no further issues. Wishful thinking?

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #1337 on:** December 30, 2014, 10:19:41 »

Be sure to have the correct gap between rad and plastic fan.
Too small can in disastrous consequences
Naj

andyburns · « **Reply #1338 on:** January 04, 2015, 02:57:14 »

I decided to start the engine today. Spoke to a couple of mechanics and engineers and they all thought I had a shot at resolving my water pump issue with a little use. Was worth a shot. Two options 1) pull the pump off the car and attach to a drill 2) start the engine and use it to turn the pump. Decided the second option would be less work.

The engine fired up after about ten turns on the starter. It sounded very smooth whilst being cranked and I also very quickly got full scale on the oil pressure gauge.

My attention was immediately taken away from the water leak and directed at quite a nasty sounding knock from the top end of either number 5 or 6. I let it run for a couple of minutes more thinking it might diminish. It didn't.

Lots of nasty things instantly crossed my mind. I am really hoping it doesn't turn out to be something that requires the engine to be pulled again. I think I would be incredibly unlucky if I did.

As well as the noise issue the leak did not diminish at all. Looking under the car at the huge mess of anitfreeze I also noticed a reasonable size pool of oil forming. This turned out to be the 12mm banjo on the side of the injection pump and also at the other end of the same line into the block. I then remembered that back about the time I stuffed my back I was also attending to this problem. I had lost my one and only 12mm ring spanner and had left these just nipped up ready for tightening at a latter date.

So now I was into a fairly large clean up of a slurry of engine oil mixed with antifreeze over quite a large area of my garage floor. I wouldn't recommend this combination as its a complete mongrel to mop.

After the clean up I decided that I had given it a fairly good crack and the only way forward with the water pump was to pull it. Out came the radiator, front pulley and then the pump. Blowing through the small drain hole that all the water is gushing out off its painfully clear that there is something desperately sick with the pumps seal. Almost to the point that it seems that the seal is jammed wide open?

Cant really afford it at the moment but will be picking up a new unit tomorrow from Startech.

So now I am confident that all the engine is now sealed and that once I have the new pump I can get it started. The big question is what the hell was the knocking. Should I even be trying to start it? Should I pull the valve cover again and investigate.

I have been reading a few thread in here which coincidentally have very similar issues. The current thread of Watson may be the same issue. Sound as if his may be injectors or a fuel delivery issue. Similar circumstances with both cars being laid up for quite some time. Wondering if my rack is jammed. Not sure and would appreciate some advice on how to proceed. Really really cant afford to make a mistake at this point that will cost thousands to fix.

ja17 · « **Reply #1339 on:** January 04, 2015, 07:02:39 »

Hello Andy,

Don't despair yet. Sounds like you are close. I would remove the valve cover, Check the valve timing (TDC and slot on cam washer), then do a quick valve clearance check. sounds like some thing may have just settled-in and now an intake valve is adjusted too tight or the cam timing is off a tooth or two. Keep us up to date.

Shvegel · « **Reply #1340 on:** January 05, 2015, 00:59:27 »

Also look at the insides of the two loops that bolt to the head and are used to secure the valve cover. If you over tighten the valve cover bolts the loops will bend in and strike the camshaft.

andyburns · « **Reply #1341 on:** January 05, 2015, 01:02:36 »

I Picked up my new aftermarket water pump. Quite a bit different from the genuine unit it was replacing. Bolted the pump in and fitted the radiator back up.

I think Joe was spot on. Just a bit of coercing and the noise just died off. I didn't even crack the rocker cover. The static timing was almost spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9w2dOtAb3A&feature=youtu.be

The only issue I seem to have now is the hot starting is not happening. I am not worried about this but just incredibly relieved that the engine seems to have survived its two year slumber seemingly intact. In general the engine is as I remember. Very smooth and barley moving on the mounts. Very very very relieved. Surely it just has to be fine tuning from here on in.

Its been a good day in Pagodaville !

andyburns · « **Reply #1342 on:** January 05, 2015, 05:47:36 »

After 30 minutes of tuning the car is now running beautifully. The slight hunting you can hear in the video posted below was from an vacuum leak around the brake booster. After this was sorted everything settled down beautifully. Still have the hot start issue but I am thinking it may be to do with the fact that at the moment I have no heat shield and the inlet manifold is getting very hot. Am sure it wont be difficult to fix.

I have noticed a small oil puddle on the ground. I figured you have only got a window of opportunity to easily trace it back to source before everything gets very messy. So I got on my back and mopped the slick with my hair looking for the leak. Found it fairly easily. Looks as if its coming from the bolt that hold all the timing gear tension-er together. I remember giving it a wide berth while doing the engine. Figured that upsetting the valve timing wasn't worth the risk. A decision that has come back to bit me now. Hopefully it wont be to hard to fix. Can anyone tell me how difficult it will be to pull this bolt and if undoing it is likely to upset anything inside the engine.

Other than this one leak I think I am done with the engine bay. Bleed the brakes and clutch, put the bonnet back on and I am driving!

GGR · « **Reply #1343 on:** January 05, 2015, 10:01:56 »

Congratulations!

Many of these bolts in front of the engine must be fitted with thread sealant as they go through up to where oil is present. If you did not do it for all of them now is still the time to do it as it will be more difficult later with the hood in place.

JamesL · « **Reply #1344 on:** January 05, 2015, 10:03:41 »

Great start to the yea. Well done!

andyburns · « **Reply #1345 on:** January 05, 2015, 21:37:36 »

Thanks guys, Can anyone tell me what is behind my mystery leaking bolt/nut. I studied the parts breakdown last night and still cant figure out exactly what it is. I want to know what the consequences may be of removing it for a reseal.

mbzse · « **Reply #1346 on:** January 06, 2015, 00:19:09 »

Quote

.../...Can anyone tell me what is behind my mystery leaking bolt/nut.../..

Behind the N=24 large hex head closing plug, you will find another hex head, N=14mm. This is the oil pressure regulating valve, located at the front of the engine block. This valve opens when the pressure from the oil pump in the sump exceeds a set value; oil is then dumped onto the timing chain and then back into the sump.

This valve is round, perhaps 5cm long and maybe 2cm in diameter.
Generally, when rebuilding engines, change this valve (just to be safe). The current part number for the complete assembly is 114 180 02 15
/Hans in Sweden

mmizesko · « **Reply #1347 on:** January 06, 2015, 01:28:55 »

Andy,

Make sure you seal all those bolts into the front of the block when you are in there (behind water pump and where alternator/ac brackets go). Also the allen screws in the sump next to the chain tensioner and sprocket under the valve cover. They need to be sealed and tight. I assume you already did the front crank seal too. Joe Alexander did all mine two years ago, and I haven't leaked a drop since.

Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH

andyburns · « **Reply #1348 on:** January 06, 2015, 05:37:31 »

Cheers Mike and Hans. Very good advice from you both. Hans I took your advice as fact and pulled the plug. My worries that it was a bolt securing something were totally unfounded. Mike, yes every single bolt and cap screw I have put back in has had a light smear with 3 Bond to make sure its going to be oil tight. So far nothing I have sealed, including the front main crank seal, seems to be leaking in the slightest.

After I sealed up the suspect plug I gave it all a good 12 hours to dry off and then restarted the car. To my disgust the oil pool has started to form again on the ground. Only tiny amounts but still enough to make a mess.

After running it for slightly longer and with the use of a very powerful light source I now believe the leak to be higher up. It seems to be tracking along the head and dribbling down the side of the timing gear alloy plate onto the plug I was suspecting.

I am hoping its not a head gasket. I cant see where it starts. Could be around the thermostat housing. I thought I sealed this up really well so would be surprised. Any thoughts?

WRe · « **Reply #1349 on:** January 06, 2015, 07:03:25 »

Hi Andy,
did you check if there is a bolt in the oil pool of the timing chain tensioner; see here www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/TimingChain.
"A 6mm socket head bolt is also located in this oil pool. This bolt must be in place or a severe exterior engine oil leak can result. The threaded hole for this bolt can emerge on the exterior of the block behind the water pump. If the bolt is left our during repairs, a mysterious oil leak may result."
...WRe

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Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level (Read 947018 times)

Greg