Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level (Read 946785 times)

andyburns · « **Reply #1775 on:** February 21, 2019, 08:14:09 »

Thanks Peter. Really appreciate your help. I googled the hell out of those numbers but didn't come up with much. I still think they are so rare that I am going to struggle to get much info on the Web. Next step is to pull it apart. It appears my diaphragm is intact as the booster holds pressure so it's looking as if it's the relief valve. I am hoping I can get a kit to repair this and perhaps the seals in. This part of the booster are standard or used across a wide range of ate boosters. Anyone have any ideas.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #1776 on:** February 21, 2019, 09:38:39 »

Andy, not sure if I am helping and probably you have seen it all, but seeing your struggle I thought I quickly share - the Ate Classic catalogue excerpt.
There is also R107 there.

The whole catalogue is 11.9MB (all car brands, all of Mercedes models), so I cannot send it here.

Maybe it is of some value.

WRe · « **Reply #1777 on:** February 21, 2019, 10:11:23 »

Hi,
here some inside pics: http://w113.eu/geschlossen/Reparaturen/Bremskraftverstaerker%20Mercedes%20Pagode%20W113.htm.
...WRe

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #1778 on:** February 21, 2019, 12:36:51 »

ATE do not sell the diaphragms for these boosters.
There's a very high probability that when you get the booster apart you will find the central Bakelite post is damaged.
I am currently in the process of having these Bakelite posts remanufactured in stainless steel.

andyburns · « **Reply #1779 on:** February 21, 2019, 18:55:12 »

Seeking an working early rhd 113 brake booster

Jonny B · « **Reply #1780 on:** February 21, 2019, 22:27:12 »

Oh my! Truer pictures I have not seen!

Shvegel · « **Reply #1781 on:** February 22, 2019, 01:39:39 »

https://www.powerbrakes.com.au/list-of-brake-doctor-restoration-services

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #1782 on:** February 22, 2019, 03:20:37 »

Quote from: andyburns on February 21, 2019, 18:55:12

Seeking an working early rhd 113 brake booster

Wunderbar!

PeterW113 · « **Reply #1783 on:** February 22, 2019, 08:48:14 »

Andy

Sorry I was of no help. As you can imagine there is a keen interest here to see how you get on.

Andy / Stick

There is a company here in the UK that restores brake servos called Past Parts. Their stuff is mostly British. I have used them on my Elan +2 and very happy. Not sure if you know them or if they are worth talking to for future use or collaboration?

Peter

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #1784 on:** February 22, 2019, 10:16:05 »

I restore these servos in-house using a special press. It took me several years to identify a source for the diaphragms and sorry chaps but I will not be divulging that source for obvious commercial reasons.
The only part I can't get but am working on is the Bakelite post.

andyburns · « **Reply #1785 on:** February 22, 2019, 10:17:27 »

Thanks guys. Keep the ideas rolling in. Shvegel I have contacted the outfit you found am awaiting a response. I am still listening very carefully to stick who had undoubtedly done quite a few of these. Nothing beats experience in my book and I am preparing myself for the worst with unobtamium parts that have to be manufactured by a skillful and expensive hand. I want to put out to the universe the notion of restoring a rhd 113 as being akin to sawing off your right arm very slowly with a blunt pocket knife. You lhd guys don't know how lucky you have it. Can anyone put a percentage figure on the additional sale price a rhd 113 owner should ask for the rarity and suffering involved over a lhd. Has this ever been discussed in here before?

andyburns · « **Reply #1786 on:** February 22, 2019, 10:20:56 »

Stick, have you got any pics of the post. I will have mine split open by Monday but am keen yo have any pics to avoid damage on the way in.

PeterW113 · « **Reply #1787 on:** February 22, 2019, 12:01:10 »

Stick,

That’s good to hear, I now know where to come should the inevitable happen.

Peter

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #1788 on:** February 22, 2019, 16:49:25 »

Here's a drawing and a 3d printed prototype next to a broken bakelight original.
3D printing is no good for a final product but is great to confirm the drawing works.
However, machining this part from solid is very difficult if indeed it is at all possible so I'm looking at making it from two components.

andyburns · « **Reply #1789 on:** February 22, 2019, 17:54:35 »

Stick, I have access to a 3d titanium prin ter which can also print in stainless steel. Do you want to investigate that possibility. I am happy to ask if we can get a couple of prototypes built. The company owe me a favor or two.

I am also interested to understand why that part is specific to RHD. I would have thought the fork or the ball rod would have slipped into into that component interchangeably.

PeterW113 · « **Reply #1790 on:** February 24, 2019, 09:59:10 »

Andy

Forgive me if you know this already, and this may be a red herring.

If you have a copy of "Laurence Meredith, Original Mercedes SL, The Restorers guide to 300SL, 190SL, 230/250/280SL models to 1971”, there are a couple of interesting pictures.

For want of a description,

Your 230SL has a Long body Booster with recess for the master cylinder.

My 280SL has a Short body with no recess for the master cylinder, see picture.

In LM's book the reference photos are the other way around:

Page 82 shows a 230SL with a Short body with no recess,

Page 86 shows a 280SL with a Long body with recess for the master cylinder.

This sort of indicates both our cars have the wrong ones, and could explain the issues you faced with clearance.

Perhaps others can comment on this?

Out if interest, my booster was replaced in 1983 at cost of £147 so they were expensive then!

Peter

Garry · « **Reply #1791 on:** February 24, 2019, 11:13:42 »

Here is mine on a RHD 65 230sl

PeterW113 · « **Reply #1792 on:** February 24, 2019, 13:27:18 »

Gary,

Your picture supports that Andy one is the right type.

Definitely a blind alley on my behalf.

Peter

mbzse · « **Reply #1793 on:** February 25, 2019, 08:06:30 »

Quote from: PeterW113

.../... a copy of "Laurence Meredith, Original Mercedes SL, The Restorers guide to 300SL, 190SL, 230/250/280SL models to 1971”.../...
In LM's book the reference photos are the other way around:.../...

I'm sorry to have to point out, Mr Meredith is not quite the expert... That ref book is riddled with misinformation and faults, we counted at least one major flaw on each page of the book. Indeed, you mention one of them yourself...

So, instead I suggest you use the list of changes for W113, published in Pagoda News on this Forum.
And of course the very excellent Engelen book "Vom Barock zur Pagode"

Garry · « **Reply #1794 on:** February 25, 2019, 10:24:21 »

I agree with Hans, I would not put too much faith in the Merridith book. Interesting book lots of good stuff but not a good reference manual.

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #1795 on:** February 25, 2019, 12:41:00 »

Quote

Stick, I have access to a 3d titanium prin ter which can also print in stainless steel. Do you want to investigate that possibility. I am happy to ask if we can get a couple of prototypes built. The company owe me a favor or two.

My information is that 3d printed parts, because of the way they are formed. are not good for use where the part slides through a lip seal.
In any case, I am concerned about litigation in the event of a failure so will be happier having it machined from solid.

andyburns · « **Reply #1796 on:** February 25, 2019, 18:54:55 »

Hi Stick. I am taking the broken baker light out today to discuss exactly that with the engineer. The brake guys have already given me their opinion which is the inner and outer surfaces of the hub shaft have to have a polished surface for the rubber internal and external seal to mate with. These area are easily accessible once the part is mounted in a laythe and can be machined back to a polished surface. In regards to having it fail because its printed I have been told the resultant mass has a very predictable strength pattern and would be much stronger than baker light. I do take your point though stick and will be discussing it with Barry later today. I have mine open and apart now and my baker light is broken in exactly the same manner yours has gone. It looks like it's also been broken for a long time. Will take photos latter. Thanks everyone for their input here. Keep it coming.

andyburns · « **Reply #1797 on:** February 25, 2019, 20:16:03 »

Stick you got me thinking about Baker lite again. What exactly is it. Fascinating history. The worlds first plastic... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite

So the question here is if I do use a printed stainless or titanium will it be as reliable, strong and long lasting.

The Baker lite I have dealt with in the past has done incredibly well considering its plastic but has still failed when around heat and corrosive liquid such as oil and probably brake fluid.

So it's probably safe to say that stainless or titanium are much more capable of withstanding these two elements long term.

andyburns · « **Reply #1798 on:** February 26, 2019, 01:30:15 »

Spent this morning cleaning all the internal booster parts and seeing exactly what I need to repair it.

There are signs the booster has been apart before for repairs. All the rubber seal are too nice for being 50+ years old.

One of the two rubber diaphrams has a tear in it so I will need to source a new one and the central bakerlight post that mates the fabbled rhd ball end rod to the master cylinder transfer rod has crack right through. This will more than likely be where I am venting vacumn as the central cavity of this bakerlight components are obviously a channel for vacumn.

I did however manage to get a tantalizingly similar bakerlight part. It was manufactured by PBR in Australia which may be a source of the correct part. Will investigate. I dont think I will be able to use it as the rhd ball end rod sits in one end of this assembly and it seems to have the wrong inside diameter (too big) to accept the rod. So as Stick eluded to this bakerlight component may well be rhd specific which is really bad news.

Now I have everything cleaned off I am off to talk to my mate who is a full time cnc machinist and CAD designer to see if he can quickly wack up a 3d model of the broken part.

andyburns · « **Reply #1799 on:** February 26, 2019, 02:37:21 »

Can anyone tell me where I might source a new diaphragm from. Either genuine ATE or aftermarket. There are two in the unit, the one I need is the outer one that sits closest to the master cylinder.

My one has torn in the crease which is apparantely really common as that is the area which moves the most I guess. It could have been damaged also taking the unit apart but it looks historic to me.

News:

Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level (Read 946785 times)