Restoration Difficulty Level

[paults1]

Andy, My early "63 230SL has no foam under the leather on the hatch. It appears to be original from the factory.
Regards,  Paul

[bogeyman]

Andy, my '69 has no foam under the Tex. I am not the original owner, so I can't guarantee that it is original, but the rest of the interior is.
I can see the indentation of the fastening steel, but after 45 years that is to be expected.
Maybe one of the original owners on here can chime in?

[mbzse]

Hi Hans,  I would love to see your photos.  I am sure any record of what the factory did will be of huge benifit to all the members both current and future

As I wrote in reply 636, here are some pictures of the leftmost underdash panel, Bambus leather factory fitted, as seen in my LHD 280 SL.
The dark brown stains are from liberal application of glue, I take it they had brushes in the M-B factory upholstery shop to apply this stuff when fitting the leather.
This panel part is aluminium sheet metal, with polyurethane foam moulded onto it, then covered in leather.
Crayon marking is last part of the Production No (this Number is documented on the cardboard data card for the vehicle)
/Hans in Sweden
.

[andyburns]

Thanks for the reply guys.  I am not saying anyone is wrong but I just cant see why you wouldn't put foam here.  Reasons being

1) If you glue leather over the lip of the metal band you will see it I guarantee that.  Its around a 1mm step up by the time its installed.
2) The foam will lift the leather up to the same level as the recess its sits in giving a nice flush fiinish with the rear of the hatch.  Otherwise it will sit low.
3) Its an absolute **** to glue leather onto large surfaces without seeing undulations.  Even if you apply the glue unevenly it can show through.  Especially true on large surfaces.

All the professional advice I have had to date has told me that you get a much better result with foam under leather no matter what the situation.  I have found this true so far.  It far more forgiving to get a good job if you don't have to fight glue all the way.  With the foam you get multiple chance to get it right and can pull and manipulate the leather until your happy and then secure around the back of the job with glue.  The even texture of the foam gives a perfect finish.

The only reason I can see that you wouldn't use it is if it disintegrated easily as it is subject to too much heat.  If this was the case they wouldn't have done the dash with foam either.

I have studied quite a few factory photos over the past couple of days looking for clues.  I couldn't see any indication of the band showing through.  Also looked at the motoring investments site.  These guys seem to know what they are doing and without a doubt they are using foam.

[66andBlue]

...  When I took mine off it had 8mm foam but this doesn't mean its original  ......

The lid on the 230SL had a thin deteriorated (crumbling) layer of foam between the MBtex and the painted metal. It may have been about 3mm thick but certainly not 8mm.  I am not absolutely sure that the foam layer was glued to the painted metal and not the vinyl, however, since I could scrape the remnants of the metal with a plastic spatula I decided to glue the new foam to the metal and i did not overlap it with the metal band but butted to it.  Unfortunately I did not take photos. My 280SL already had a complete color change so I did not pay much attention and just glued the new leather on to the lid the same way. The new foam was self-sticking and 1/8" thick (from Grainger: http://www.grainger.com/product/Foam-Sheet-5GDK8?searchQuery=5GDK8).
Whether to overlap or not depends also on the thickness of the leather. Of course, it if is very thin then the metal band would show, but a compressed - from stretching the leather over it -  thin foam layer is about even with the raised metal band.
Also I did not glue the layer to the foam on the surface only on the underside and the lower edge in the corners. I had a few wrinkles because I did not want to stretch the leather too much to loose the grain, however, those could be removed heating the leather with a hair dryer. Once the car sits in full sunshine the effect will be the same.

[andyburns]

Alfred, thanks for posting those pics.  It looks as if you have done a great job with it.  I am a bit terrified of that 45 corner!  I have been on the phone this afternoon to a leather smith who has given me some good advice.   He offered to do it for me but I really want to give it a go.  Will probably start in the next couple of days.

I also talked to him about my dash problems and I am considering farming this off to him.  Its so critical and my gut feeling here is to put my pride aside and get an expert in.  At the end of the day being Jack of all trades but master of none may not be the best approach to something this rare and valuable.  I think I would be doing myself, and the car an injustice to cock up something so prominent.

Might just take a deep breath and work on the car radio problem.

Will sleep on it.

[andyburns]

Picked up all the bits a pieces from the seat frame from the upholsterer today, will go to work on all the chrome bits and pieces.  A few need minor panel beating before the chrome process.

Also really want to work on the recline handles.  One has the threaded rod snapped off that screw up to the plastic knob.  Quite a fine metal rod which may be difficult to weld a new threading rod too.  Might seek professional help on this one as well to ensure I dont screw up the entire unit.  Has the potential to go wrong.  Anyone else ever repaired this.  I figure being so delicate to begin with that its prone to breaking.

[rutger kohler]

Hi Andy, it mmight be possible to cut the damaged thead off square where it goes into the lever, then set the lever up in a drill press and carefully drill down the tapping size for the Metric fine thread say 12mm, then tap out. Get a long threaded bolt and screw into the lever with loctite then cut off so the protruding thread macthes what you have now?

[andyburns]

While I was out talking to the trim guy I decided to take along my upper dash parts for him to look at.  Also took out several bits I had completed for him to QA.

He took one look at my dash panel and the bedraggled pieces of leather I had been trying to fit and had a good chuckle.  Not because I had made a total hash out of it but because I was missing one important piece of knowledge about the leather.  It stretches about 3 times further in one direction than the other.  Just the way the leathers grain runs.  I had all the grain running along the length of the dash rather than across which would have made that hard to form piece 3 times easier.  You have to be mindful of this when cutting the leather.

I felt like a moron!  Again!

Really nice guy though.  He spent a full hour with me looking at my finished pieces, which he said were fine.

Also picked up in our discussion that I had used the wrong glue and the wrong foam.   Minute by minute I realized that if I wanted a professional job I should have ever never attempted this, without help/advice, to begin with.

The glue on the dash has to be rated at 180 degrees or higher and the use of open cell foam far less than ideal as it collapses with heat and is difficult to apply correctly.  He has recommended closed cell 4mm foam which after application can be sanded and contoured to suit.

By the end of the conversation he had was trying to convince me to have another crack myself but after he quoted me 100 dollars for him to do it the decision became a no brainier.

We went on to have a look at the progress on my seats.  They are looking really good to me but he was unhappy with some pretty minor irregularities that I wouldn't have even spotted.  A couple of the pads are going to get stripped back down and 'tweaked' until every crease and lump has been removed.  I did ask if this was all for the same price and to my approval he confirmed.   A pleasure to deal with a tradesman that actually takes pride in what goes out the door.  He was also working on a drop dead gorgeous type 37 Bugatti at the same time as mine which he was half way through.  Everything was being fabricated from scratch and the work he had done on that was gorgeous.  So I think I am in very safe hands.  Quite nice going home and not having to worry about it.

Another piece of good news as well, I took my amp to a qualified audio technician who fixed the unit in less than an hour.  Cost me 50 dollars.  The damage was one component which cost about 2 dollars.  The rest was labor which is fair enough.  He was honest enough to tell me he just identified it and replaced and the thing 'just came right'.  Was the approach I was going to take but I figure he would have got to the solution far faster than I would have.  He also has identified under magnification that four of the capacitors are showing signs of leaking.  He offered to replace them for another 80 dollars.  I figure that even at 130 total I am onto a winner.

Its been a good Pagoda day.

[DaveB]

Sounds like you found a couple of good tradesmen there.

Others have fixed broken seat levers in a couple of ways discussed here http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19957.0

[andyburns]

Cheers Dave,  I checked that thread out and I think I will try with welding a new piece of rod on.  If I have to rechrome so be it.  I have my mate Rodger coming over at some stage and will get him to look at it from an engineering point of view.  Just want to make sure nothing snaps again and the repair is at least as strong as the original.

Today I picked up my radio from the repair guy.  Brilliant.  Two days and the issue is sorted.  He replaced all the capacitors and the burnt out resistor.  He claims that the replacement capacitors in particular made a huge difference to the sound quality.  Not that a mono amp driving a tiny speaker in an open air convertible will ever be quite 'hifi' or heard clearly over the roar of all the fresh air coursing through the interior.  But I will take it none the less.  Its a win in my books.

Next problem... where to mount the amp.  I though I might get away with right behind the radio head unit but not a chance in hell.  The window wiper cross bar put an abrupt stop to that plan.

A few weeks ago Jack from Tazzy sent me over a few pics of his amp.  His car is ex USA and is lhd so not directly comparable but none the less an excellent start point.  Its tucked up between the window wiper motor bucket and the heater on the right hand side of the car by the looks  (see his photo attached).  I looked at the equivalent location on my car and there just isn't the space and also the space is used to channel a number of the cables through the firewall into the engine bay.  

Damn it these RHD vehicles are a pain in the proverbial!

Another issue is the connecting umbilical cord between the head unit and the amp is to short for this location so if I want to consider it I will need an extension.    The speaker cable is no worries but the din type setup for the small signal and power is a different story all together.  I could cut it and extend each individual wire but would end up with a Frankenstein.    It would be good if becker made an extension cable for this purpose.  

If anyone has any knowledge here about the factory setup it would be great to know about it as well.  

Tomorrow night I have a date with a paint booth!

Cheers  

Andy

[andyburns]

The Becker Mexico came with the ability to run a tape player through an auxiliary port on the rear of the unit.  This has been exploited to run modern mp3 and other audio sources in its place.  There are a number of aftermarket adapters from either 6 or 7 pin din plugs to modern mini 3.5mm stereo plug than can just plug into your phone or ipod. 

Unfortunately it appears that my unit is also odd ball in this respect having what looks like a 5pin din plug.   Anyone had any experience with these early plugs and know where to source the correct plugs.

 

[Peter van Es]

Andy,

check this. It's easy to make a cable yourself.

http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Ipod

Peter

[DaveB]

My Mexico TR has brackets holding the amp to the radio, so I thought it would fit in this configuration.

[andyburns]

Dave,  thats exactly the same configuration as mine so I am 98 percent certain that you havn't got a glimmer of hope of fitting that up if your dash configuration is anything like mine.  Take a look at the picture of Jacks setup, which is what I believe factory.  They have installed it away from the head unit due to lack of space directly behind the dash.  I will take some pics tomorrow to highlight the problem.  Your lead at least looks much longer than mine so you can probably snake it down to an alternative location.

[mmizesko]

Andy,

I had the same problem with my Europa II power amp.  Too much stuff on the firewall.  The location specified in the MB schematic was unavailable on mine (AC?).  In the end, we put a large velcro strip on the bracket, and just mounted it flat behind the glovebox.  It is out of the way of the wiper arms, easy to get to, and the velcro makes it quiet as a mouse.  I shouldn't say that, as I've removed mouse "mummies" from the car recently.

If you need more specifics, let me know.  The cables should be all long enough.  Make sure you use the appropriate MB speaker connectors.

Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH

[mmizesko]

Andy,

here is the pic which is on this site for the amp location.  This didn't work for my 280SL.

Mike

[mmizesko]

Sorry, my last post was the 666th reply to this topic.  Need it to be 667.  Spooky.

Mike

[66andBlue]

Andy,
what is the exact model number of your Becker Mexico? There should be a label on the left side with the information.
It is not difficult to make an extension cable to the amplifier but it would be good to have the wiring plan for your particular model.
Making an iPod/MP3 cable for your 5-pin DIN is easy also but also think about the location of the 3.5mm socket at the end of the cable into which you'll plug the MP3 player.
The brackets for the amplifier came in two sizes depending on the amp. How big is yours?

[andyburns]

My unit is an early Becker Mexico TR.  It was set up in exactly the same configuration as DaveB picture below so I believe it was probably out of a finny or even an early 108.  The amp above head unit setup just wouldn't work.  The umbilical cord is set up for this setup and is really short as well so unless I somehow manage to pull off a Houdini I will be either Frankienstiening the cable or looking to an extention cable of some sort.

I will take some pictures when I get home from work tonight.

This radio is so frustrating.  I just really want to get the dash back together quickly and move on!  I lay in bed last night on the net trying to source an antenna for it.  Still cant decide on two thing: 1) Electric or manual.  2) Period or modern.

I do really like the idea of electric as the radio wont be getting used that often and it will be a big fat hastle to have to raise an lower it for 'demonstration' purposes.

I have found a couple of decent period manual ones for around the 150US mark.  Still havn't found a period electric unit.  I insist on Hirschmann regardles on if its either modern or period.  The modern Hirschmann  does appear to be quite cheap and nasty but would still take my chances.  Anyone know where I can get a period electric?

What do you guys think?

[66andBlue]

Andy,
I a have the same TR in my 230SL. Attached is the pin numbering for the amp cable. You should be able to buy DIN connectors and a shielded 8-conductor cable in NZ to make one, if not let me know I'll fabricate one for you.
Forget about a "period correct" Hirschmann antenna, because (a) they are are very rare and if you find one expect to pay US $700 and more! (b) they are extremely heavy and prone to rusting because of bad drainage at the bottom where the motor is. Buy an AUTA-2040, the only obvious difference is the half-globe on top because it does not come with a fully chromed dome but it can be tilted to be parallel to the windshield post.

[andyburns]

Thanks Alfred.  That was exactly the antenna I was looking at on ebay.  They are so cheap, 60-80US, I assumed they must be low quality and have steered away.  Also didn't know if it would fit up into the cavity.  Good to know that you have used it and are happy with its asthetic and performace.  I will go an order one today!  

I think half the effort in these restorations is actually all the labored thinking.  Its so nice to occassionaly be steered in the right direction.  Things happen much quicker.

Update Taken Alreds advice and gone with a AUTA-2040.  Next issue there doesn't seem to be a 12v takeoff from either the amp or the head unit to control the up/down position of the antenna.   Probably will tap into one of the control cables in the ambilical when I lengthen it.

[66andBlue]

Andy,
look at the AUTA-2040 instructions it shows a +12V red wire with a 5A fuse and another (white) +12V wire that needs to be switched on/off.
The ignition key on the 230SL does not have a position that allows radio operation while everything is else is shut off, thus you need to decide where to get the power for the radio.
If you never use the radio when the engine is off then then splice into the power wire for your radio. Otherwise run a new wire from position 30 on the light switch, it is always hot and the antenna will be always powered. I am not sure whether your radio has a switched tab/socket for the antenna, that is, it is turned on and off with the radio switch. If you had a power antenna before then you should have such a toggle switch on the radio - but if not you need to install one.
My 230SL is not here at the moment but in a few days I can take a look and let you know how I solved the trigger switch on my Becker TR.

Also didn't know if it would fit up into the cavity.

I know it fits into the cavity on the passenger site of a LHD car. Where was your antenna located before, left or right fender?  Also do you have a an extra fuse box on the passenger side inner fender in the engine compartment as shown in the technical manual?

[andyburns]

Hi Alfred, thanks for all the information.  Really appreciate it.  I will try and digest all the information in the next couple of days and come up with a game plan.  Tonight I am going to hit the hay.  I have been preparing and painting the glove compartment door and the visible dash plate that the radio mounts up against all afternoon and this evening.  Surprising that just those two small part have soaked up soooo much time.  The door on its own would owe me close on 10-15 hours with all the repairs and running around.  I had to drive 60k tonight just to get a decent environment to make sure the paint turned out.  Didn't really even have time to inspect it tonight.  Just threw the final coats on and hung it in the back of my 4x4 and came home.   Will post some pics of how it turned out after work tomorrow.  Have had three consecutive long days on the car now so might have a night off and enjoy a glass of wine or two tomorrow!

[mmizesko]

Andy,

I am looking at my amp right now, and there is a plug right above the "rechts" speaker connection for the electric antenna.  It is stamped with "+12V" just above and to the right.  I think this solves your power problem, instead of splicing.  Although mine is a Europa II Stereo.  Although, yours may be different, as you would have found the stamping and figured it out already.

Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH