Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 942096 times)

rutger kohler

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #800 on: May 07, 2014, 23:20:56 »
Andy, i have just looked at your video. Bushes knackered alright. If you leave this part till next week I can have a look, might be able to use "dufor" bushes to replace these and you can use my press to get them in and out. Might be able to machine pin out of high tensile steel too.

cheers

Rodger
1969 280 SL Manual gear shift
1972 280SE 3.5 auto

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #801 on: May 08, 2014, 05:45:46 »
Mammoth effort today flat on my back prepping the rear floor pan for paint.  Shoulder are on fire tonight.  Started off with 4 liters of solvent and cleaned off all the bitumen the last owner sprayed everywhere.  This was by far the biggest job.  Never never never use bitumous under sealer on your car.  Its the most hideous stuff and cant be painted.  It would probably come off quite easily if you bead blasted but with a wire brush on an angle grinder it just smears all over the show.  Solvent was the only option.  I got 99% of it off.  Was very difficult where it had been blown all over the factory under seal which has a very coarse texture and catches the  bitumen in all the hollows.

After I finished with the solvent the entire surface got a couple of once overs with the wire brush.  Mainly concentrated on all the detail I missed the with the first coarse pass a few days back.  Then finished up with a sold scotch to get a good key for the primer and then couple of liters wax and grease remover to give the paint the best possible chance of adhering.

Another hour or so and the masking was done.  Quite a few internal holes that had to be masked from inside the cabin and also in the trunk.

All that effort for half an hour of painting.  Hopefully the prep was well done and the car is now set up for the next 50 years.   I can certainly say it has much more paint than applied at the factory.  I really plied it on thick in areas that are hard to get too susceptible to rust like the shock towers.  

Tomorrow when the paint is cured I am going to blow a couple of coats of wurth paintable under body sealant.  Its as close as I can find to the original stuff.  
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 05:53:26 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #802 on: May 08, 2014, 05:47:16 »
Some more photos of the underbody in primer
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #803 on: May 08, 2014, 08:58:14 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../...cleaned off all the bitumen the last owner sprayed everywhere..../...  Never never never use bitumous under sealer on your car...
I'll certainly second that opinion! I hate the stuff - and all four old cars I have bought have been thoroughly sprayed.... :(

Quote
.../... come off quite easily if you bead blasted but with a wire brush on an angle grinder it just smears all over the show.  Solvent was the only option
A viable alternative I am using nowadays is dry ice blasting. If you would like to try it (perhaps only for a small component part), see if you can locate a company performing this process in your vincinity. Described here:
http://www.cryogenesis.co.uk/dry-ice-cleaning.php
http://blog.nitrofreeze.com/2010/01/dry-ice-blasting-for-auto-body-and.html
/Hans in Sweden
.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 09:11:13 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #804 on: May 08, 2014, 09:20:38 »
Hans, I have heard of the dry ice cleaning before.  I think it would also take off the factory under seal as well.  I discovered by accident that common paint stripper is also supper effective at taking off the factory under seal.   I think chemical strippers are underrated and have the major advantage of leaving the factory zinc coating in place where abrasive techniques strip the steel of this protective coating.

I am trying to achieve a sympathetic refurbishment leaving as much of the factory fabric as possible.  This included the under seal.  I know that its far more work and isn't financial as viable as stripping and re-coating but I am a sucker for punishment and am begrudgingly happy to put in the effort.  

I have had a lot of people telling me I am mad and that I am asking for problems with rust hidden under the under seal.  All the sound under seal I have ever pulled up is always covering pristine sheet metal.  If its still providing this protection 50 years on is there any need to pull it all off.  Anywhere the seal is cracked or peeling I treat with contempt and grind it out until I hit clean sheet.  Treat any exposed steel with zinc rust converter (POR15 metal ready or similar) and then use a modern 2k sealer.  Then replace the under seal.  That's my job tomorrow.  I think I have retained well over 95% of the factory under seal.

I am interested in other peoples opinion on under seal and what you have done with it.  

  
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 09:27:28 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #805 on: May 08, 2014, 09:49:36 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../...dry ice cleaning before.  I think it would also take off the factory under seal as well

No, not at all. What comes off are loose particles adhering to the surface being cleaned and the tar (bitumen) stuff. Paint that is ok and the underbody coating that still firmly adheres to the body metal is left intact. See example of post-iceblasting treatment, the underbody in image below (picture from wuenscholdtimer.de web). The light grey paint is the original factory primer (the whole car bodies were dipped in this paint, early on at the assembly line in Sindelfingen)
/Hans in Sweden
.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 09:57:43 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #806 on: May 08, 2014, 09:59:21 »
Wow,  Hans that's and amazing process then.  The result looks as if it was rolled out of the factory.  It appears there are a couple of outfits in NZ as well.  I wish I knew about it before and definitely would have investigated. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #807 on: May 09, 2014, 22:36:27 »
The epoxy 2k takes a couple of days to cure properly so I have had a bit of down time to work on other projects.  I did however apply some pretty liberal doses of seam sealer to various locations.  This was just brush on stuff that I worked up into various joints and seams.  Again before this application I used brunox an epoxy rust inhibitor/converter and sprayed up into all the seams to prevent future problems.   The last thing you want to do is seal in rust.

Last night after all this had dried I decided to wack on the first coat of stone chip to try and recreate all the areas where I have taken off the factory underseal.  In some places its really thick, like on the wheel well, and I know that I will need at least three applications to build up a factory look.  If you try and do it in one go you just end up with a really horrible slumping effect.  The stone guard I used is a Wurth product which is paintable and not bitumen based.  It dries to a very hard finish similar to the factory stuff but is much more viscous and is only designed to be put on in thin layers.

I used it to do the same repairs to the front floor pans and now you would be really hard pressed to tell the difference.  Over time it gets harder and harder and now even a good solid fingernail test cant tell the difference between old and new.

The gun I used to apply it is cheap as chips, I think 20USD.  If any of you guys ever have to do repairs on your floor this is a good option.  Cheap and readily available.

Will wait another day or so and recoat.   Hopefully by Tuesday I will be able to blow the final top color coat on and be done with the body shell.  Something to celebrate!
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #808 on: May 10, 2014, 06:09:35 »
Spent this afternoon paint stripping all quite a few of the rear end bits and pieces.  Concentrated on the drive shaft and have this to a stage where I can mask up and paint.  I really want to get the other parts down into the blaster tomorrow so I have a reasonable quantity of bit to paint.  Bit of a pain to mix up and clean just for one part.

Does anyone know what the factory color is for the rear hubs shown in the second photo.  They are aluminum but came to me painted in black.  I think satin black was probably how they left the factory. 

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

DaveB

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #809 on: May 10, 2014, 06:57:40 »
Satin black is probably correct Andy, I think these have the original finish.
Re: your radio, I guess the sound was the main thing. Original looks with enhanced sound and volume is appealing but I guess you had to cut some sheetmetal in the (hidden) footwell right?
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #810 on: May 10, 2014, 08:40:21 »
Dave,  thanks for the photos.  I am going with satin.  Will put down some black etch primer followed by satin black 2k top coat first after I bead blast them.  Tomorrows job.

The car came to me with 6 inch holes already cut in the passenger footwell.  I toyed with welding them back over but decided to keep them and find the best possible speakers to fit.  They can barely be seen they are so far down.

I went to huge lengths to get the original radio working well so have best of both worlds now.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #811 on: May 11, 2014, 08:49:14 »
Can anyone tell me if the early 230sl had the option of a heated rear window and if so was the switch located in the center console as shown in the photo below.  I want to modify an early switch knob to fit on the new active audio volume controller.   I am hoping it was an original option and I am not going to make the install look too out of place.  If anyone has photos of an early 230sl with this option I would be most appreciative. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Garry

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #812 on: May 11, 2014, 09:05:30 »
My understanding is that that option came in around mid 1969 according to the Engelen book but that reference source has been known to be wrong.
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
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1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, Tourist Delivery.
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andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #813 on: May 11, 2014, 09:11:55 »
Bugga,  do you guys think its too tacky to put it in an early 230?  The carpet set from GAHH came with the short and long console insert.  I guess it was just a generic 230, 250 and 280 pattern.

I cant think of anywhere else to put the volume control.  Any ideas.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

WRe

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #814 on: May 11, 2014, 10:18:49 »
Hi Andy,
attached a MB price list of 1963/64 where a heated rear window is not an option: code 248, "Heckscheibe elektrisch heizbar".
...Wolfgang
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 17:40:26 by WRe »

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #815 on: May 12, 2014, 06:27:25 »
I put down the last two topcoats of paint on my undercarriage this afternoon.  I ended up deciding to use the last couple of liters of silver base coat left over from the repaint.  I mixed it with a 4 to 1 ratio with standard hardener.  Normally you wouldn't do this but I had it on good authority that this is an excellent trick to replicate factory underbody textures.   The hardener seals the base coat rock solid and gives it a slightly higher gloss level.   Not as much as being clear coated but more of a satin appearance if that makes sense. 

I am actually tickled pink with the result.  It might not be totally 'factory' but seems like a good compromise.

Something to celebrate for me as it marks the end of the restoration of the shell.  This journey has taken the best part of 14 months.  Sorry about the poor photos.  By the time I had finished up and cleaned my gun it was dark outside and the wife was growling. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #816 on: May 14, 2014, 07:01:13 »
Went back to the audio system this morning after the JL Audio line level mixer arrived from the states.   Spent most of the time modifying the spindle of the mixing pot to take a spare early W108 knob I had floating around.  Ended up working out well and used a tight interference fit technique to hold it in place.

The bracket took a while as well.  Made it out of some old shelving angle iron I found.  Welded on two small tabs to allow the unit to be screwed to the tray.  I took quite a bit of care to ensure I left enough clearance to take the leather covering.  Ended up nailing this one and the unit probably didn't need the additional tabs and screws and could have relied on the snug fit to keep it in place.

Wired everything up this afternoon.  Its an active unit so required a power, remote and ground feed. 

The big benefit of this device is that it has one input (from my bluetooth receiver) and two outputs.  One output is variable and is controlled by the mixing knob.  This one goes to my amp and modern equipment.   The second output is fixed and I have run this to the input of the original 50 year old becker on the dash.

Quite magic,  you can sit in the drivers seat and demonstrate the amazing bluetooth input blaring out of the tiny oval speaker.  Time it right and twist the new volume pot at a strategic moment in your favorite song and it an entirely different proposition.

The volume mixing pot is actually positioned in a really great location.  Its really easy to reach down and adjust it.  As the crow flies it really close to my left hand on the steering wheel.

Another minor victory!
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #817 on: May 17, 2014, 06:28:29 »
A few of you guys have asked to see a video of the complete audio system.  I tried tonight to put something together.  It really hard to record and show the difference in quality between the old and new so the vid really is only any good for showing the functionality.  Believe me that the difference is quite phenomenal when your sitting in the drivers seat.    I was going to continue to develop the system but have decided to call it a day as it really is now good enough.

I was going to install a parametric equalizer but have been playing with free dsp software on the android device and am really happy with a free ware 8 band software based equalizer.  Its really tamed the issues I had with the ear bleeding levels of treble the infinity perfects are renowned for.

I ended up persevering with various DC to DC isolation IC's and have 100% eliminated all the crosstalk issues as well.  Another small but fiddly time consuming task behind me.

So for those who want to take a quick look (and imagine the great sound quality) follow this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqFt0jneYR4&feature=youtu.be

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

jameshoward

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #818 on: May 17, 2014, 06:38:54 »
Andy,

Thanks, but sadly we don't seem to be to view it because it contains music.  Just looked on YouTube and it's not licensed to play here.

:(
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #819 on: May 17, 2014, 06:58:57 »
Good old You Tube.  Cant believe the restrictions.  Perhaps I should record some of my own arrangement to get around the whole copyright issues.  James the irony is that the music I used was picked deliberately for my UK 113 buddies.  A bit of Madness belting out.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Peter van Es

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #820 on: May 17, 2014, 11:42:19 »
I had no troubles viewing it… difference in sound quality could be heard quite well.

Peter
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mdsalemi

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #821 on: May 17, 2014, 13:17:18 »
Andy, it played here in the USA just fine.
I noticed that when you turned on the radio, the screen lit up somewhat brilliantly. On the earlier Europa mono I have, the little "Chiclet" light barely lights up anything at all, so clearly they made some kind of improvement. I thought I had something wrong with mine until Becker Autosound told me no, that's the way it is/was…

Great job!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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jameshoward

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #822 on: May 17, 2014, 16:39:14 »
In that case, it's Ze Germans.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #823 on: May 18, 2014, 03:00:46 »
Mike, the radio head unit was not refurbished at all.  I took the top off and used about a can of contact cleaner to get rid of 50 years of dust etc.  But other than that its as I received it from Germany.  Perhaps the previous owner at some point replaced the bulbs.   It could have been the cheap phone camera that made it look brighter as well.

This afternoon I hooked into the refurb off all the diff parts that have come off the rear end.  I started by removing the rear trailing arms and extracting the rubber bushes.  It was much simpler that I had expected and ended up only needing a hand clamp to compress the rubber bushes enough to flick off the securing clip.

Paint stripped the various parts and then decided to get aggressive with the angle grinder mounted steel brush to reduce the amount of time I need to spend in the blaster.  The though of another day standing in front of it really doesn't make me too happy.  I would much prefer to take these parts to the powder coaters and pick them up next week but with funds dwindling I need to revert to the school of hard yaka and some really staunch epoxy paint.  Much cheaper and will probably only cost 40 dollars.

I did take all the parts to the powder coaters and he quoted 500.  I have got him to do the three springs as they are just too hard to strip and bead blast.  He cut me a deal for 100 for all 3.  Pick these up latter this week.

I am interested to here what you guys think about painting vs powder coating.  I love powder coating but its not how they did it at the factory and I am sceiptical to how long it will last. without flaking off.  Which is more durable?

Also interested to see what everyone thinks about reusing half worn rubber.  False economy????

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

jameshoward

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #824 on: May 18, 2014, 06:11:53 »
Andy,

I powder coated my rear end, so to speak, because it was not that expensive. It did cause me big problems; I didn't prep it properly and so then had to spend ages removing it from the inside of various parts where bolts were supposed to go, etc.  I am pretty sure powder coated will outlast paint, though. But that said, I guess it depends on whether you will use the car in all weathers.  I've been so impressed with how you've done the underside; it looks like you could drive the car through the sea on a daily basis and it would never rust! It's got paint, though, not powder, and the bodywork is far, far more susceptible to rust that the axle and associated parts, so in effect you'd be spending more money to coat something that would never really decay and which will almost certainly out survive the rest of the car. It is therefore not logical in my view to coat the rear.

As for the rubber shown in the picture, I'd replace the lot. It's not that expensive, and if you don't powder coated, you'll save money.

James
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL