Restoration Difficulty Level

[drmb]

Andy, you fit the plate and screw in the stud with the double nuts to the engine mount before the mount is fitted into the front suspension beam.

[andyburns]

Cheers Lloyd.  Whats thrown me a bit is the plate shown in the parts breakdown appears to have exactly the same foot print as the engine mount.  I can understand the mechanics with this setup where the plate is sandwiched between the sub frame and the mount and the central bolt then has something to work against.  But with mine the plate is perfectly round and the only way it could work would be if it were bolted up from the inside of the frame.  Its a perfect size for doing this and is where I found it to begin with.  Will take another look first thing in the morning.  Its frustrating me as I have all my final painting of the chassis rails done now and really want the sub frame back in the car.  Dont think I will get to it until lunch tomorrow as the America's cup will be taking center stage.   

[andyburns]

Starting to prep up the next batch of parts for sandblasting and paint.  Made sure my hubs were in this batch so I can put the car back on its feet as soon as the sub frame goes back in.  First stage the parts with the wire brush on the angle grinder.  Step two tomorrow morning back into the bead blast cabinet. 

Also dropped off my power steer box at the hydraulic specialist to have the new seal kit fitted.  I thought about doing it myself but really just want to get it done as quickly as possible and back in the car.  Pick it up Thursday.

Also had a really pleasant surprise when my friend Roger came around in his mint 280sl and took me for a drive.  I have completely forgot what a great experience it is to be in motion in these old girls.  Given me another breath of enthusiasm to press on with mine.  Thanks Roger!

[andyburns]

Finally got my bonnet back today.  A few very small cosmetic issues on the inside but otherwise really pleased.  Cant wait to refit it.  I thought I would remount the bonnet badge but now it looks decidedly shabby up against the nice crisp paint work.   I would love another one but will probably have to sell my remaining kidney to be able to afford it.

Also picked up my steering box after it had been fitted with the new repair kit so ready to rock with the power steering conversion now.  I will do the pumps seal myself next week and paint all the remaining components at some point after the sub frame makes its way back into the car.

Masked up all the components waiting for paint which took an eternity.  Lots of fiddly nooks and crannies to mask.  I had painted the power steering box prior to taking it to the hydraulic specialist with black high gloss 2k epoxy but they had done a fair bit of scuffing all over the surface so I have decided to repaint in 2k satin.    I think they felt quite guilty and commented on the nice finish when I picked it up.  The shiny look doesn't look quite right along side the satin of the sub frame.

[kampala]

This is going to be an incredibly pristine machine  ... we keep tuning in ... thanks for the play by play.

[andyburns]

Cheers kampala.  I am hoping for a tidy little runner that will give 5 to 10 years of trouble free motoring.  If I achieve this I will be tickled pink. 

[GGR]

Nice progress!. If you are to keep the hood in that position for a while, you'de better attach it to something. It is light compared to its surface and draught or wind can easily have it fall when you open the garage door, with all the consequences on your nice paint! Don't ask me how I know, it happened to me twice, though I was lucky enough it was before it was painted.

I will soon renew my brakes and like you, I will be painting the hubs and the part of the rotors that are not exposed to the pads. However these parts can go very hot, including the hub. What paint have you been using? Which one would you recommend for my application? Would caliper paint be good?

[andyburns]

GGR, good point about securing the bonnet.  I will be moving it to a safer place first thing tomorrow morning!  Regarding the paint on the hubs,  I have tried caliper paint from a rattle can directly on bare metal on several occasions over the past 20 years.  My experience is that they all start rusting out relatively quickly.  I have migrated to using industry strength paints out of the tin that have to be sprayed on using a compressor and spray gun.  The results are much better and the cost is often much cheaper.  I used a 2k ceramic based paint on the calipers and hubs.  It handles the heat as well as resisting oil and other chemicals and is incredibly hard and chip resistant.  It honestly makes a mockery of anything you can buy in a can.  I am sure it is 100 times better than what the factory put on.  The only issue is the cyanide content which you have to be aware off.  I feel quite safe after buying a really good respirator and painters overalls.  I also go through heaps of disposable latex gloves to ensure I dont come into contact with this stuff.   I have about three paint guns now,   they are cheap as chips and have saved me quite a bit of money across the restoration.  In fact the one skill I have really enjoyed learning is the painting.  If you want I can take some close ups of the finished hubs.  Let me know.  I hope I am not boring you guys with all this stuff!

[Tomnistuff]

Andy, in the photograph of your steering parts of reply #177, particularly the two tie rods, I notice that the tubular parts of the tie rods are not the same length.  One is about 6 -10 mm longer than the other.  I'm not talking about the tie rod ends screwed into the tubes.  The actual tubes are different lengths.  The EPC, at least for my 1967 230SL shows the tie rod tubes to be identical.

When I removed mine a couple of days ago, I noticed the same thing.  My body restorer removed the suspension and put it back hand tight to ship the car back to me.  I just looked at the notes my body restorer left me.  They say the short one is on the left but they don't give a length for either.  They also don't say if they are talking about the tube or the overall length.  Did you measure yours when your removed them.  If so, I would appreciate knowing your measurements of the tie rod lengths (including the ends) as a "starting point" until I can complete my build and get the suspension aligned.

I can't find in the Technical Manual, or any of the repair books including the BBB, an initial build length for the steering parts.  It seems that it would be a nice starting point for those of us who work on our own cars, but who don't do alignments.

Thanks for your dimensions if you have them.

Tom Kizer

[andyburns]

Hi Tom, no problems at all.  Give me a few hours as I am in the middle of some other work and I will go out and take the measurements for you.  Will take some photos and overlay the results.  Cheers  Andy

[andyburns]

Tom,  I measured up the rods and my tubes are only a few mm different but very close measuring 245 and 241mm.  The measurement which I think is more critical is the center to center measurment of the ball joints on each rod.  Mine are both 380mm.  Sort of makes sense the steering is symmetrical.   There is at least 15-20mm adjustment on either end of the ball joints so even if you have some funky manufacturing differences in the tubes they delta could definitely be made up with this adjustment.  I would set them up to the 380mm measurment and wait till it gets on the alignment machine.  Hope this helps.

[Tomnistuff]

Thanks enormously, Andy.  That helps a lot.  I still wonder why the tubes are different when the EPC says they should be the same part number - oh well!

I`ll set them up at 380 mm, center to center and wait for the alignment.  I wouldn`t even try to align the steering without the car completely assembled.  The engine isn`t even installed yet.  I just don`t want to wait to at least put in an adjustment that will be safe if I forget to finalize it.

Thanks again.

Tom Kizer

[andyburns]

Spent this morning ensuring all the nut and bolts in the sub frame were torqued up correctly.  A bit precarious trying to put it in own your own but I managed.  First time was a bit of a disaster after discovering I had put the sway bar in upside down.  An hour latter (and a fair bit of 'colorful' language) I finally bolted the last fasteners.  Big relief.  Can now get on with my engine.  One of the things I constantly have battled with is space.  Its fantastic to have back again the small area in front of the car that the sub frame had been hogging for the past month.  Also finished off the wheel hubs.  Am carefully now going to look at the inner and outer wheel bearings to see if replacements need to be sought.  I brought new inner grease seals as the old ones seemed quite hard and brittle.  Hopefully my little girl will be back on her feet before the end of the weekend!

[andyburns]

One nasty consequence of putting the sub frame back in is that I have discovered that the power steering idler arm issue has come back to bite me again.  I thought that I was out of the woods after discovering a friend of mine who has a 230sl also has a W108 power steer setup in it.  I was right on the point on having my arm bent the 10mm to bring it in line with the factory arm but after talking to my friend, who has had no major alignment or tire wear issues, I decided to go ahead without bending the arm. After I bolted up all the parts today I have discovered that the drag link ball joint attached to the arm now interferes with the stay attached to main chassis rail (see photo).  I could just grind a bit out of this but really want to do it properly so I will probably strip the box back out and go back to my initial plan of bending the arm.  Very very very frustrating.

Also picked up my next load of chrome plating today.  At least I can spend a bit of time putting some 'bling' back on the car.  It might temporarily take my mind away from the dreaded power steer problem.

Perhaps I should admit defeat and go back to the manual non power steer box.  What do you guys think?

[Benz Dr.]

Thanks enormously, Andy.  That helps a lot.  I still wonder why the tubes are different when the EPC says they should be the same part number - oh well!

I`ll set them up at 380 mm, center to center and wait for the alignment.  I wouldn`t even try to align the steering without the car completely assembled.  The engine isn`t even installed yet.  I just don`t want to wait to at least put in an adjustment that will be safe if I forget to finalize it.

Thanks again.

Tom Kizer

They are the same. Why would they be different?  I've seen different tie rod ends so maybe that explains some of it.

[Tomnistuff]

Tie rods are so interesting.  The EPC says the tubes are both the same part number.  Andy`s tubes are 241 and 245 mm long (without the ends).  Mine are 240 and 246 mm long (without the ends).  I`ve concluded that this precision part must have a blueprint length dimension of 243 mm +/- 3 mm, or more.  That way they are all correct.  Either that or someone used a tie rod from a different car at some time in the past.

I also found that all of my shock absorber washers were upside down when I took the car apart.  And the steering relay arm pin radial lip seal was upside down, what was left of it.  That's probably why it was mostly gone, ruptured and split by the hydraulic lock of the relay arm moving in and out of the trunnion bearing as it rotates (See the note on BBB page 46-11/2).  A significant percentage of what I removed at the beginning of my restoration was improperly installed sometime before I bought the car.  The left and right engine mounts were different, the left one being some kind of sedan mount.  The one correct engine mount was missing its rebound stop plate, buffer and bolt.  A lot of little parts, that the EPC says should be there, were missing.

My advice when dealing with a 50 year old car is: "Trust nothing you find to be correct - find out what it should be."  I just wish that MB was not so stingy with their information (and I used to work for them when they were DaimlerChrysler).

Oh well, live and learn.

Tom Kizer

[andyburns]

Tom,  I agree without some level of factory documentation that it would be a much tougher job putting these old girls back together.  It would be great if the factory supported this with better access to EPC and the like.  I have never had access to EPC and have relied on the following site during my resto for reference on how reassembly should take place.  http://mb.ilcats.ru/group/class/1/ccode/1/cat/249/type/113/subtype/042  It certainly has been a life saver for me on several occasions.

I think it would be in the factories best 'long term' interests to open up access to this type of information.  I am sure a good case could be made that it would help increase the probability that more old mercedes live on for future generations to enjoy... and that in years to come the factory have an increased chance of selling very very expensive parts to the punters.

[Valvechatter]

Andy,
I am a newcomer.
What is the source of your reference link? What exactly is it? :-) I mean other than the obvious parts catalog or inventory.

Lin

[andyburns]

Hi Lin,  the parts breakdown is really handy for me as many hundreds of my parts from all sorts of system were taken off the car and mixed up in a bucket in order to have them re-plated.  Its been over 9 months now since I took everything apart and even though while taking them apart the mind tells you that 'its simple' and will be 'easy to put back' when you finally come to do it even simple stuff trips you up.  Questions like 'was a washer suppose to go behind there' or 'which was up is that part suppose go' come up all the time.  If you the last couple of post I admitted to a dumb mistake of putting the torsion bar in upside down.  I went back to the parts break down to confirm.   The parts breakdown is also awesome for ordering parts as well.  Some of the parts are difficult to explain so if you have the part number you dont have to go through that pain with the supplier.  Just look it up at home in the comfort of your own living room.

[andyburns]

Went around this afternoon to the friend who had his car converted to a W108 power steer box to see how he got away with the interference issue I described in my previous post.  Before I went I bet him 10 dollars that he had the same issue and that the mechanic who installed his system simply ground down the gusset to give the required clearance.  Guess what...  I won that bet.  Quite an ugly solution in my opinion.  Its tempting to copy just to get me going but I really want to get it right and not have to grind off a structural component that was engineered for a reason.  In my mind I think I would rather correctly bend the pitman arm than hack off the gusset.  Any thought from you guys?

[GGR]

Well, it's a bit of a dilemma.

Bending the steering arm by 10 mm will slightly affect the movement radius which is determined by the perpendicular to the rotation axis and the current position of the ball joint on the arm. Right now the arm is at a certain angle compared to rotation axis so there is a given relation with the perpendicular of the rotation axis. In theory, if you change the angle, you should also change the length as to recover the relation with the perpendicular of the rotation axis. In practice, I don't think it will affect much the way the steering works by much, especially that the relay arm is also crooked and therefore shortens the distance between the two arms. By altering one, you may help correct the second one.

Regarding the bracket, if I remember my physics lessons well, strength won't be really altered if you cut that lip following a diagonal from the lower point of where the lip connects to the bracket in the front, and the highest point where the lip connects with the chassis rail in the back. But I'm no engineer. 

The ideal solution of course would be for you to find the correct arm.   

[aussiebattler]

Hi Andy,
I'm new to this group and have only just looked at your posts regarding your restoration project.
I must say very impressive, you are doing a great job.
I'm doing a ground up restoration of a 1966 230sl as well, so it's very interesting to see encounters that you have met and so forth.
I bought my car form the US sight unseen, so I put a lot of trust in the seller, they were partially honest, but I've found on dismantling that a lot of parts really need replacing.
Obviously from US it's LHD, but in Oz we can have full registration if the car is over 30 years old. I would have preferred to get a RHD but found it easier to get on from o/s.
I've set myself a time of about 2 years, but will probably finish sooner as I'm semi retired (at present) and spend on average about 40 a week on it.
I intend to make a rotisserie for it, probably start on that next week.
I've been getting a few parts from some very obliging blokes in the US and on this forum.
Happy to share any info with you.
Cheers,
Jack

[andyburns]

GGR,  I agree with logic in regard to bending the arm.  The guys who are going to do it for me have already done all the calcs.  The only measurment that looks like it will suffer is the over relative length of the arm, relative from the center of the box shaft to the center of the ball joints, which will decrease by about 2 to 3 mm.  This will have the effect of reducing my turn to turn steering lock slightly (I believe insignificantly).  I also agree that grinding the gusset probably wont reduce its strength.  I also know it hasn't caused any problems for my friend in the ten years he has has been running with this setup.  Still after all the effort I have gone to keeping it original an after getting all the paint work absolutely mint I cannot bear to take a grinder near it.  Will sleep on it again for a few days I think.


 

[GGR]

Well, its not only the lock to lock that will be affected, but right and left won't by synchro anymore Right radius will be shorter than left one). But I doubt you will feel the difference in driving it. The good thing about bending the arm is that you can replace it the day when you find the right one, without having altered anything else permanently.

[andyburns]

GGR, again you are correct on the radius.  One last alternative I have is that for 2700 NZD the company who are doing the work have offered to manufacture an arm from scratch.  They specialize in forging so can produce the dies, press the new component out in huge presses, trim the product up in a cnc mill and then send it off to another crowd to have the spine and tapered ball joint holes machined.  Even then 2700 is total mates rates.  I write software for them so we are constantly doing little contra deals.  Just cant justify the expense and am sure if I embark on a world wide search I would find the correct arm for a lot less money.  It would be a damned cool project to work on.  They also specialize in titanium forging which would be even better.