Restoration Difficulty Level

[Larry & Norma]

Neither does mine

[Jonny B]

No seal on my 280 SL or 250 SL.

[andyburns]

Thanks guys I shall take your advice and rip the seal out today.  I think it looks heaps better without it!

[andyburns]

Clock and Radio

When I first purchased the car one of the first 'faults' I noticed were a very very very terrible clarion radio from the 80 in the dash and almost as sickening a non correct clock wedged in.

In hindsight I laugh at myself as the first things I did in the preceding days after the purchase were to set about correcting these two problems.  I just doesn't seem sane with all the water thats flowed under the bridge that I would have been in such a rush to get these things sorted first.  

I made  impulse buys off ebay germany and ebay us that have come back and bitten me hard in the last 24 hours.

From USA I purchased a clock.  I watched a few going for well over 300US.  I waited until one came up where the seller gave assurances that the unit was in good working order until I pulled the trigger.  From memory I paid over the odds for this privilege to the tune of 400US.  Why it took me over a year to check it I cannot explain but after connecting it up to my bench supply last night I have discovered that it is very sick indeed.  They should wind every couple of minutes I think but this little sucker is winding every 10 seconds.  Not a good thing.  I may pull it apart to see if I can see any obvious causes but I am on the brink of sending it off for repair or even a quartz movement upgrade.  

I was joking with another pagoda friend of mine last night that by the time I have it back working in the car I could have purchased for myself with the same sort of funds a very nice rolex!

After this let down I hauled my second historic purchase out of its hiding hole.  This time we are talking about a very beautiful becker mexico.    I absolutely love these units and marvel over the wunderbars intricate clockwork mechanism.  Just a piece of high art in my humble opinion.  

I got this unit from a seller in Switzerland who advertised it on ebay Germany as a fully working beautiful condition unit.  Right.  Same **** different day!  Powered it up and discovered that the only thing that worked were the light and the wunderbar.    Pulled the top of the remote amp and was met but the unmistakable smell of stale burnt destroyed electrolytic capacitor.  

I tested the head unit with a becker Europa external amp and discovered that the unit was ok which was a big relief.  I cant use the europa amp as it doesn't have the correct power feeds for the Mexico wunderbar.

So this morning I have been frantically emailing off clock repair places all over the world to get prices and have also sent a friendly email to Becker US to see if they will send me the required components to fix the amp.

Kind of have to laugh though.  Just everything associated with this car needs this type of attention.  The few parts I manage to just have to clean and put back on the car are savored and coveted like a fine red wine.   After a year of problem after problem you sort of start to develop a thick skin.  I would have been a nervous wreck a year ago so in that sense the car has taught me a lot.

[DaveB]

Those are frustrating experiences but at least you're 'investing' your money - I mean the car should always be worth more than your outlay (unless you price in your time of course . When it comes to ebay purchases most people describe things honestly or even conservatively. It's just so disappointing when you encounter the person who does not.
I agree the '64/'65 Mexico TR are wonderful radios. No doubt you've seen the operating version at www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTe252zaSVU. That mechanical stationseeker is marvellous in action. Only 'problem' is the Mexico has no preset buttons. But the 'Q' is a cool feature. The '63/'64 Grand Prix TG are also lovely radios, with presets (but no shortwave). I think shortwave broadcasts are being discontinued now anyway, what with internet radio. Bit of a shame.
My advice with the clock is repair of the original mechanism - primarily for the sound not the timekeeping!
p.s. My windshield squirter is also seal-less

[Tomnistuff]

When it comes to ebay purchases most people describe things honestly or even conservatively. It's just so disappointing when you encounter the person who does not.

In recent years, I buy less and less on ebay.  I can remember when almost everyone was honest on ebay.  Recently, I've even been "taken to the cleaners" several times by what "appear" to be legitimate import parts dealers.  A recent one advertised a Pagoda flex joint kit with the Mercedes "kit" part number in the title and a photo of the "kit", including the flex joint, three short bolts, three long bolts, six washers, six nyloc nuts and the two appropriate rubber seals, and even at a reasonable, but not cheap price.

What I got was an aftermarket flex disc, with nothing else.

I finally got full refund from PayPal, but it still cost me four weeks and the cost to ship it back.

Bottom Line:  Don't trust anyone.  From now on, I'll buy from those I've dealt with before, even if it is more expensive.

Tom Kizer

[andyburns]

Sent of a few queries for the clock and radio yesterday.  Got back the following responses for the clock issue.  Clockworks seems very very cheap.  Has anyone else used them before.  Almost to good to be true?

Have now had my clock running for over 24 hours and the problem has improved somewhat.  Its winding every 20 second up from 5 when I started it.  Nowhere the 4 minutes it should be though.  

Also got a response back from Becker US.  I asked if they would help out by identifying the component burnt out and just send me a replacement.  That went down like a cup of cold vomit and I was quickly told that my only option was a complete replacement at 250US.  Got my heckles up a bit as I do have a lot of experience with electronic and know actually how simple this old amplifier is.  I am sure that they would have seen this identical problem dozens and dozens of times and been able, with a reasonable degree of certainty, to suggest a sensible component replacement schedule.  

Just seems crazy to send the unit around the world to have a 5cent component replaced.  Guess at the end of the day they are a business after all.  

Only other option is to buy the circuit diagram myself.  They are available online for 20 euro.  



Clockworks Info (info@clockwks.com)
5/02/2014
To: Andrew Burns
Picture of Clockworks Info

Andrew,

Your original clock movement can be serviced for the flat rate of $89.95 plus return shipping. This includes disassembly of the movement, replacement of any worn or distorted parts, oiling and calibration. We only ask that the clock be complete, fully assembled and the movement serviceable. Turnaround time is usually 24 hours and the warranty is 1 year.

We do not offer a quartz conversion on VDO clocks.

Wisconsin residents must add 5.5% sales tax to the price of parts and service.

Return shipping within the US is $13.

You can pack your clock up and ship it by UPS, Fed-X, US mail, or any means convenient to you. You can enclose a check or money order, bill the service to MC/Visa/Discover, or we can email a Paypal invoice once the work is done. For the quickest service possible, please include a copy of this e-mail with your clock.

Kind regards,
Jerry

P.S. If you would like the opportunity to see your car featured on our "Clock Works Car of The Month" web page we would like to see it! Send along a photo or two and a short description of your car. Let us know if you would like your photo(s) returned. Or you can e-mail them to info@clockwks.com

Clock Works
1745 Meta Lakes Rd.
Eagle River, WI 54521
Phone: 715-479-5759
 
WWW.CLOCKWKS.COM

Hartmut Mees (hartmut@paspeedo.com)
5/02/2014
To: 'Andrew Burns'
Picture of Hartmut Mees

We have two options for you.  We can repair the original electro-mechanical mechanism, or we can rebuild the clock to quartz with a new VDO mechanism.  The cost for the original repair is approximately $289.00, and rebuild to quartz is $245.00 + shipping.  If you want the chrome bezel replaced, this will cost $21.00, and a new plastic lens will cost 18.00.  As a part of the service we will clean/polish the old bezel/lens.  All of our work comes with a 2 year warranty, however the original mechanisms are very susceptible to low voltage.  The turn around time for a repair such as this is abut 2 to 3 weeks.  If you decide to send us your clock, please be sure to attach a short note or a copy of this email.

[Garry]

Andy,

Let me look in my box of tricks re radio.  I may have something that may help.  Will come back to you tonight when I get back to our property.

Garry

[andyburns]

Garry you are too good to me.   If you do have an amp I will buy it off you for market rates.  I need to start contributing something back to you.  If there is anything you need just make sure you sing out!

[mdsalemi]

Only other option is to buy the circuit diagram myself.  They are available online for 20 euro.  

Andy--keep asking around here, maybe someone has the schematic and that might save you 20 euro, or part of it. You can then find out what the part is and hopefully somewhere it won't be too difficult to source. Come back here when you have a part number…

Might find something here but I don't read German… http://www.astralsilber.de/becker/becker.htm

Wow have prices gone up on the clock! I paid about $100 about 12 years ago for the quartz upgrade. The bad news is, those quartz movements are really quite inexpensive. The good news is, for 12 years the clock has kept stunningly perfect time; so, not complaining, just observing...

[aussiebattler]

Must have been the same supplier, I got the same, disc only and not the kit. Also the flex disc was the round type, not the original one (advertised) with the flat sides.
I did finally get a replacement albeit another round one !  I gave up with them after that, won't mention the name here, but "container" might mean something.

[andyburns]

Seat Refurbishment Nightmare - Part One

Last night I couldn't sleep.  I tossed and turned for hours in bed thinking about the next part of the journey.  When the seat covers and squabs turned up they just all looked wrong against the dainty little 230 seat base.  Even holding them up against the seats at xmas time revealed some quite considerable and noticeable differences.

I had requested instructions on how to fit them from both GAHH and Buds but didn't really get any more than a passing comment about quote 'you just have to make them work'.  What that meant I wasn't quite sure.  Fuzzy and me just dont mix!

So I got out of bed at 2am.  I have had a few health issues lately and have been put on some quite strong drugs which have me a little wired.  Usually I am able to sleep to at least 4am which leaves me an hour or so to think about the car and the day ahead.  

Anyway I dragged my sorry ass out of bed and went and started taking more measurement.  Confirmation after about an hour of work that my gut was correct.  I then drafted up a couple of email to both GAHH and Buds to see if I could get some traction.

David responded quickly ringing me in the person and putting me on to Brad who is presumably the upholstery guy.  This proved pretty fruitless with claims that they very very infrequently worked on the early 230sl and didn't have any record or photos of how it was done.  All that could be offered was a suggestion that I had to turn the pad into a total Frankenstein to have any sort of chance.

GAHH quickly followed with Jack phoning Brad to talk the matter over.  Jack then phone me to discuss and basically told me the same story about early cars being very rare and that they were also not able to provide me with and 'cutting and gluing' guidelines.

It became apparent quickly that I am the only party of all three of us that had possession of an original 230sl seat pad and the GAHH equivilent to be able to do any sort of comparison.  The offer was made and for the past 8 hours I have been decomposing my seat down to all the constituent parts and taking detailed measurment.

I have summarized the findings and have sent the following email back to Buds and GAHH to see if they can help.   Jack from GAHH seemed very keen to see the measurements and use these to the benefit of his customers if possible.

Some of my findings I think are very interesting.  If any of you guys have been through this and have encountered any of the problems I have raised in the email I think it would be great to share.  

I have shared all the photos I have taken from the investigation and a pdf with sketches of the summary measurement differences.  Can be found here if your interested https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=9C6D25994A012D12%21325

I am really happy this morning with the response from both Buds and GAHH and look forward to see what suggestions they come up with.  I think getting this sorted would be of massive benefit to anyone else in here with an early car where your contemplating this refurb.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dlatham@budsbenz.com, jack@gahh.com, info@gahh.com, bshore@budsbenz.com
Hi all,


I have spent the morning decomposing my driver seat so we have a really solid base to make some comparisons on.

First up the seat I have taken apart is factory bearing the original 113 part number sticker correct for an early 230sl.  The only non standard feature is a non standard external cover that has been put on it at some stage in its life.

I have the original pad out off the seat frame and have been measuring and comparing it along side the one GAHH has supplied out of Mexico.

I have taken detailed measurements of the early 230sl seat frame, the original early 230sl seat pad and the new GAHH 280sl pad.

I have also taken over 70 hi res photos as I have progressed to ensure we have enough information to proceed.

I have also taken detailed measurements of the matching leather seat cover supplied by GAHH.

My main findings which will more than likely cause issues are as follows (the ones in red concern me the most):

1) The GAHH pad is 35-40mm longer than the factory 230sl pad
2) The GAHH paid is ~30mm wider at the front of the pad
3) The GAHH pad is ~30mm narrower at the rear of the pad
4) The GAHH pad is ~10mm narrower than the factory 230sl frame at the rear of the seat
5) The GAHH pad is ~10mm wider than the factory 230sl frame at the front of the seat
6) The GAHH pad is 10 to 30mm thicker than the factory 230sl pad looking at the side profile
7) The GAHH pad has a different profile than the factory 230sl pad looking at the front edge of the seat and varies from 0mm in the center to 30mm on the outer edges from the factory pad.
The GAHH pad is around 5mm thicker than the factory 230sl pad looking from the rear of the pads
9) The GAHH leather seat cover matches the profile of the 280sl GAHH supplied seat pad with the exception of the cut out notch.
10) The GAHH leather seat cover is to large to fit snugly over the factory 230sl pad.  The difference is basically the difference in the dimensions measure above.


Guys off all these findings the one that worries me the most are now 9 and 10.  David mentioned to me that if I didn't get new seat pad that I would have fitment issues.  David have you ever had a customer who tried to fit GAHH covers to early seat pads.  I would be interested to see the results.  Without padding to hell the fitment would be very very baggy and look pretty bad I would imagine.

If you can tell me where to from here I would be most appreciative.  In order to continue the following nasty shortcuts would have to be made

1) Cant reduce the length of the pad as it matches the seat cover length so the front lip of the pad would be overhanging the front of the frame by more than 35-40mm.
2) The rear of the seat would have to have the slot opened up at least 5mm on each side to allow it to go over the frame.  This would decrease the strength of the lip.
3) The rear of the seat will cuse issues with the GAHH pad having one of its sides straight where the 230sl the pockets both taper toward the center of the seat.  I am not sure how we are going to get around this.  I need guidance from someone and a good solid solution proposed.

I have uploaded all the photos and the dimension sketches I did.  They can be accessed from this link

My gut feeling is that this pad cannot be made to fit 'properly' without turning it into an absolute Frankenstein.    I will research it again tonight but I have read somewhere on the 113.org site that the only way to do this is to get two sets of bottom pads and cut and tuck to suit.

Jack can you please confirm from your patterns that the 230 and 280 seat covers have identical measurement other than the cutout.  If they do then I would suggest that a mistake has been made in creating the patterns and that they were all made off the 280 pad as a base.

Brad suggested this morning that I butcher my original 230sl pad but my felling here is that these should be preserved no matter what as a last bastion fall back if all else goes to ****.  After all the pads are NLA.  For love or money I probably would even be able to get another shitty second had set.

Brad  and Jack can you also confirm if you have ever had issues with saggy fitting seat cover where the customer has elected to not replace the pads.  You may have put this down to tired old pads where the real problem is the differences highlighted in this email.

Back to you gentlemen for comment.

Please feel free to take a close look at all the comparison photos and measurement sketches on the following link in blue below.  Just click on it and it will take you to the pics.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=9C6D25994A012D12%21325

Regards

Andy Burns

[Garry]

Andy,

This is what i have that may be of some help.  I believe it is an old Becker Europa, someone may be able to recognise if that is so but I am fairly certain it is.

Would this be of any help.  I purchased it from another member then carried it back from UK a few years ago with the intent of using parts for repairing my other cars radio but never used it.  If it is of use you can have it for what I paid plus postage. 

Let me now if you can use it.

Garry

[andyburns]

Hi Garry, thanks so much for your efforts.  Unfortunately that unit isn't going to work.  The Europa did not carry the wunderbar which was powered through a separate circuit controlled through the amp.  I have a Europa amp here which is what I tested the unit with.  Everything works other than the wunderbar.  This one feature is non negotiable with the restoration and has been the subject of my fascination since I was a little nipper.   Thank you so much for pulling that out of your spare parts and giving it a go.  Wonderful of you!

[Garry]

Never mind, Just thought it may have the spares, I am not quite sure what the wunderbar  is?  I am assuming it is the search bar that can move the tuning to the next station. My current Becker has it along with a cassette player (which is not working) and the small knobs but I have a horrible feeling that my radio may be a later 70’s one. (Photo attached)

On the seats, I have only a week ago got my new leather seats from GAHH via Buds and they appear to be correct for my seat. I was planning to reuse my seat pads, maybe not a good idea.

How early is your car.  Do the seats not have the indentation on the left and right hand side for the seat lever?

Garry

[andyburns]

Hi Garry, if you radio is operation dont part it out.  Almost the same level of sacrilege as parting a pagoda.  They are also soaring in value.  I think you would get a surprise if you chucked it back on ebay.  The parts are not an issue.  I am not adverse to putting in a modern electrolytic cap.   No one will ever see it and it will operate identically if not better than its predecessor.  Just need the identification.

Bigger fish to fry today with the seats.  Mine are early correct 230 pads.  If you have purchased early 230 covers without the cutout, with straight edges, then you will almost certainly have the same problem as I do.  The original seat pads are not as large and unless you buffer out the new covers I would almost certainly expect you will not get a taught professional looking job.  Take a look at all the pictures I posted.  They should give you a very good idea of the issue.

I have GAHH working on a solution so will definitely be reporting back over the next couple of days with their response.  I could be stressing over nothing but I have physically had my early seat pad in the GAHH cover and its a very loose fit. 

[Garry]

Andy

As a '65, mine are with the cut-ins and what GAHH have sent appear to be their “B” type and correct for me.

Not so sure about my existing Becker Mexico with tape player!

[andyburns]

Garry just saw the pic of your radio.  Beautiful.  I have the slim line version without the tape deck.  How did you get the early knobs to fit.  Very well done.  My car is an early 64 and at this time becker were in the process of converting from valves to transistors thus the TR insignia.  The mexico tape deck didn't come out until quite late in the pieces.  I would pick almost 70-71.  Does your all work.  Becker had a string of firsts and patents including auto reverse, and the auto tuning (wunderbar as some people call it).  Just looks so beautiful on the dash.  I cant wait till mine is in and working.  Slowly getting there.

[andyburns]

Am sure you will be ok then Garry,  guess its just another example of how the early stuff is so much harder to source parts for.  I really like the look of the early seats.  The are much thinner looking to my eye.  Just compliments all the other more dainty unique features of the early cars.   Only downside is it just comes at a price.  I didn't know that the 230s changed to the later type of seats.  Thought all of them had the early ones.   Do you know when Mercedes made the change?

[Garry]

Thought mine were the narrow seats, certainly narrower than the 280 I had.  There must be an earlier one again,  Dont know the dates on the changes. What yearis your car.

The knobs just have the very fine Phillips screw that holds them in place. Hated the larger ones and they looked out of place but I do like the radio and will not change it to the earlier one as it works well other than the tape at this point.

Garry

[andyburns]

Hi Garry,  I am almost 100% certain that there were every only two lower seat pads.  I have the original part numbers here for them somewhere.  You can still buy the latter ones from mercedes but the early ones are unobtainable.  Neither do any of the aftermarket manufacturers make direct equivalent replacements for the early style.

My car is an early 64 but I dont think that is a determinant here.  If the seat lower seat pad is symmetrical then its early.  If its not symmetrical and has the recess cut out then its late.  

Both David from Buds and Jack from GAHH have both suggested to me as solution is to find and old late model seat and take the base off it and use the frame to take the late model cushion.  ie Frankenstein seat with late model base and early model back.  Or just make the late model pad 'work' with the early model frame.  No thanks!  Frankenstein and me have just never seen eye to eye and dont much enjoy one another s company.

I would suspect that plenty of owners have gone down this track.  In fact I have seen quite a few early 230's on ebay and also the Beverly Hill Car Hatchery (http://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com) where it obvious the covers have been replaces and done very very badly with the base pad been replaced with the late 280 style while the back rest has been left early.  Take a look at the photo below.  It make me feel quite queezy just looking at it.  Was off a early 230.

See how the upper pads covers are both loose, it will be because they have fitted a late model cover set over a replacement late model lower pad but left the upper pads in place.  The late model upper pads are much thicker so the covers have more depth.  GAHH 'shave' the upper pads for early 230's before sending them if you want to fit an early cover or else you would get the reverse of this problem with the covers being to small to clear the larger pad. 

So just a word of caution when you go to fit your up as well, make sure you upholstery guy is well informed and knows what to look out for or you may end up with a set of seats that look like the photo.  

[Garry]

Totally agree Andy that those seat backs look terrible.

 My base is the same as the photo and I believe what i have received will fit up ok.  Again I agree that GAHH who had both straight sided “A” covers and indented “B” covers available should have provided their “A” base seat covers to suit your seats otherwise they would not be correct and a ‘frankenstien’ as you suggest. I gather they have sent you the “B” seat set in error.

 The backs in the photo look the same thickness as mine but having had a look at my seat and how the new leather is to be fitted, I would suggest that the red one pictured has just been badly fitted. With the seat back removed, it appears the leathers should be able to be tautly fitted.  As an early 230, are your seats thinner again?

Garry

[andyburns]

Garry I was sent an early A set of covers, a late 280 base pad and a 'shaved' 280 back pad.  The covers are fitted with a stitched in thick cardboard rib which hooks over the seat frame into a channel.  There is really very little adjustment the fitter has available to him or her when fitting these up.   So to that extent I don't know if you can really fit them badly.  I guess I will find more about it as I go through the journey.  Cant afford to get any of the upholstery done professionally so its now a matter of having no choice but to give it a go myself.

If you got into a situation where the cover was very loose on the frame your only recourse would be to unpick the ribbing off the seat cover and trim it back to suit then stitch back on the ribbing.  Not something I wish to entertain.

This is really the crux of the point I have been trying to make is that if you want the covers to fit first time and with little angst then pay very very particular attention to what set up you have.  Of course anything can be made to 'work' but personally I would rather steer clear of the associated stress of bespoke modification.  It is a killer.  As I said in an earlier post fitting parts out of the box is now stuff wet dreams are made out of.... for me anyway     

Has anyone in here fitted up seats themselves.  It would be fantastic to here a first hand account.

[andyburns]

Horn Button Refurb - Final Chapter

Got my chrome horn button bits and pieces back from the electroplaters yesterday.  Set about polishing the original horn button ring before I painted it.  Really got it sparkling with very find polishing compound and paper before I painted it with a good quality modelling enamel.

Once it dried I reassembled.  If your going to try this the key to getting the thing back together is getting all the small lock tabs on the inner central ring dead straight without snapping them off.  I used a very fine pair of broad needle nose pliers.  Also ensure that all leather is kept well clear of the openings for the lock tab or you will run into tolerance problems.

It still took me a good half an hour to get it in cleanly.  I used a bit of lanolin to lubricate its path. 

The outer ring is easy to snap over the rim provided the edges of the leather are cut cleanly.  All in all just a bit of patience will see you right.

The last photo here is my refurbeb button up along side a brand new factory item.  I think the feel and smell of the leather are much nicer than the imitation plastic factory versions.  Cant wait to fit it to the car!

[andyburns]

Put down the last of the sound dead material in the cockpit last night.  I ran out while I was doing the job a month or so ago and havn't got around finishing it.  I needed to get it done to get the final dash components back and move on so I bit the bullet and purchased enough new material to finish this job and also do the soft top well and boot. 

The final part of the cock pit was the hardest place to access.  I ended up very sore after 2 hours of jumping in and out of the car.  I kind of rushed it a bit so the result wasn't perfect but its good enough and isn't seen so you can afford to get a little sloppy.

Again the templates are a must.  You cant just stick this stuff down and trim latter.  Its to thick and unpliable. Also in these tricky areas it also pays once your template is cut to do a trial fit up with all the backing paper still intact.  You can mold the material to the basic shape and figure out how once the back is off you can manoeuvre the material into place without touching anything else.  This sounds simple enough but if you cock it up you will be throwing that part away.

Good to have this chapter finished now.  Can really move on and finish the dash.