Restoration Difficulty Level

[andyburns]

Thanks to all the help and advice in here I finally got to finish off my glove compartment door this afternoon.  It took a couple of hours to get it half decent.  Still need to tidy the ends once the glue has all dried.  After all the worry the ends were not that challenging.  Those recesses really did there job and soaked up quite a bit of slack leather.  In fact I didn't even need to cut the leather but simply folded it over and jammed it in with a good dose of Ados F38. 

Its probably not quite as tidy as the factory would have done it but its good enough.  I have all the chrome garnish strips which sit on top of these bits off at the chrome shop at the moment.  I am very nervous as they are very very hard to get pieces in RHD and the chrome guys have had them for three weeks now.  If they lost them I would be gutted.   

Cant wait to fit it all up!

[andyburns]

Lesson Learnt!


Got into the blaster today and cleaned up the glove box back to fresh metal.  Gave it a liberal dose of metal ready and then blew a nice thick coat of epoxy all over it.  Drove to the painters and got some more paint matched up to the green gray color of the paint that I took off yesterday.  Should come up nicely.

Then decided to take the plunge and paint the final base and clear coat on the last of the dash panels.  These are critical as they are right in the driver and passengers direct line of sight.  I spent ages last week prepping the pieces and gradually took them all the way back with 2000 grit paper till they were almost shining.

After my car came back from the paint booth I lost my nice clean tiled garage floor to do this sort of painting.  All the small bits and pieces were painted on boxes a foot off the floor.  I was cleaning the garage and wetting the floor to keep the dust down.  Also was closing the garage door to mitigate the wind coming up and blowing crap all over the job.  It really only super critical while you actually have the gun in your hand as dust that falls on the job gets 'locked in'.  Whilst dust that falls after you have finished tends to sit on top and you have a reasonable job of polishing out the imperfections latter.

Anyway I am now forced to paint in my second garage which has exposed beams and is extremely grubby in comparison.  The day here was perfect for painting.  No wind and nice blue skys.  Decided to take the risk of these last parts.  Turned the gun pressure down as far as I could to reduce the amount of air moving around the room so the dust wouldn't be kicked up.   It was such a nice still day I had the garage doors up to try and get and get a bit more light in and ventilate the horrible 2k fumes.

Laid the base coat down perfectly.  Silver, or most any metalic paint, is hard to paint.  You have to apply it very evenly so all the flakes sit the same way or you end up with a striped effect.  It looks horrible.  Anyway I put down several very light even coats to avoid this and was really pleased.

Then went to blow the clear coat using the same technique.  I put down about three coats when a huge freak gust of wind swept through the garage.  Nothing too major but enough to send dust down from the rafters.  Hundreds of small dots all through the clear.  

The 'radio' panel was recoverable as its so flat.  Just wait till the clear has hardened and knock it back to the primer with a block and start again.  The glove compartment door is a different proposition with heaps of recesses, bumps and curves.  It took a long time to prep this part properly and I knew that the only way to get it right again was to start from scratch.  Out came the paint stripper and back to bare metal it went.  Even stripping this panel took an hour.  If I had tried to sand it back evenly I estimate I would be there for at least three times that amount.  I would all be finger tip stuff so I am sure I have done the correct thing.

So back to the paint booth for the final coat.  Will have to talk nicely to the painter and see if he will let me use his gear again.  Just not worth risking given the amount of effort getting it to that stage.

[andyburns]

Have moved on tonight to the soft top hatch.  I have been reviewing all my photos and coming up with a plan.  This one could be quite tricky but hopefully not as hard as the dash (which I am still avoiding). 

I would love to know for sure if foam padding featured under the leather from the factory.  There are a couple of posts in here about it but none seem to have a definitive answer.  When I took mine off it had 8mm foam but this doesn't mean its original.

Another issue is the thin metal band that runs around the back of the hatch leather is about 1mm thick.  Its thick enough that if foam isn't laid over it, it will show up as a ridge.  When I took mine off it was like this.  I am trying to find a photo that show it up but if yours has been done the same you will know what I am on about.

In any event it would be great to spark off a conversation here about how this is suppose to be.  Any help and photos appreciated.

[hkollan]

Andy,

Here's my answer, there was a layer of foam padding under the leather/Tex from the factory.
The original foam has usually turned to dust by now, but the traces of foam I have found when restoring these cars left
me in no doubt about this issue. I can only vouch for 280SL, but I pretty sure all models had the foam.
I think you have explained well  why the foam is needed.

Hans

[andyburns]

Thanks Hans,

I am almost certain I will run with foam at this point.  I am interested in anyone who has applied the foam.  Is it lapped over top of the metal band.  The leather is stretched around the band and glued on the underside.  So this would this would mean that the installation sequence is as follows:

1) cut leather to shape
2) glue leather to underside of metal band
3) install leather band onto the hatch with leather folded wrong side up toward the back of the car
4) cut and install foam on hatch up and over the band
5) pull the leather over the hatch and glue.

[andyburns]

The Irony

A couple of months ago when I was in the middle of my dilemma's with my door locks a really kind guy by the name of Garry Marks in Australia offered to send me a couple of 113 lock tumblers.  I was very humbled by his offer and gratefully accepted.

After several weeks of waiting for the package to arrive I awkwardly asked Garry about the package.  He was equally surprised that it hadn't arrived and we carefully set about confirming all the details of the address to ensure we hadn't cocked anything up.  Nothing was amiss and we both agreed to put it down to a nasty case of post office MOA.

Garry then kindly sent me his last tumbler which did arrive quick pronto in a few days but was unfortunately not a match to the keys of my car.  A 50/50 chance that didn't fall in my favor.

I subsequently found some solace in the warm doorhandles of a fintail 111.

Story over.... until this morning.

In the mail, upon my arrival home from work, I discovered an unassuming bubble-wrap package with some very tatty and well traveled Australian postal stamps.  Immediately I knew what it was and had a quiet chuckle to myself.  It was only a few weeks ago that Garry and I joked with each other that luck would have it that just after I solved my nasty little problem the lost parcel would turn up. 

It bore some interesting new tattoos it had received during its travels including a postal stamp from Toronto.  The first thing that sprung to mind was joking with Garry about the proficiency of the Australian postal workers.  Normally I would do this as us Aussie and New Zealand folk have this competitive rivalry thing going on and an opportunity of a cheap shot like this never normally goes amiss in this type of situation.  But as Garry has been so kind and gracious I wouldn't dream of doing that. 

The irony of all of it is that my key slipped into both the barrels that Garry sent and either could have been used right back on day one.

[Garry]

Being the perfect gentleman that I am  and not wanting to tell Andy that the NZ Post Office has a fixation on Toronto, well anywhere but NZ actually, , no, I cannot say that.  Andy, send me back my 2 original ones, one day i will work out how to key them the same as my boot and fit them instead of using three keys as I do now.

Murphys Law

Garry

[andyburns]

Hi Garry,  will send them back to you asap.  Get them in the post this week and you might see them by xmas!  I would definitley re-key your boot.  Trivial exercise compared to the door locks.   Open the boot, undo two nuts and it out.  A bit easier than pulling the whole door apart!  If I can add anything else to your shipment that you might need sing out!  Thank again for your help.

[andyburns]

Dash Chrome Returns

Got the chrome back today for the lower dash bolster.  Four pieces that run the entire length of the dash.  They were ok but pitted in a few places and also the ignition keys had been scratching the hell out of the piece directly under them.  So off they went a few weeks ago.  180 dollars well spent as they look fantastic up against the new leather.  I would have been dissapointed if I neglected this detail.  Cant wait to put all this stuff up against the crisp silver paint work.  Chrome, black and silver are a beautiful combination in my humble appointment.

Also blew the final top coat on the glove compartment so will working away at the leather as soon as the paint has cured.  The contact adhesive I am using is a solvent based product so I am picking if the paint isn't fully cured I could create one big sloppy problem.

My aim of putting back one piece per day on the car has sort of gone out the window.  I am hoping to rectify that in the next week.  Still think my pace has been ok this week.  A few cockups but all the same some reasonable progress.

We have a big tropical cyclone bearing down on us here in New Zealand this weekend with some pretty severe winds and rain so I am picking you might not see any posts for a few days.   

Havn't mentioned it before but my seats are also off at a professional upholsterer.  Really long story behind it but the outcome was that it just wasn't a sensible idea for me to attempt the repairs required to make the supplied seat covers to fit properly.  Its costing me 1000 dollars NZ for two days labor to strip the seats, cut the new covers to fit and resew and then fit everything up again. 

I offered to strip the seats for the trim guy to keep the cost down but he talked me into letting him do it so he could see all the visible line etc when the seats were in one piece.  Sort of makes sense.  While its all in parts I am going to refurb the recline mechanisms and probably re-chrome all the bits and pieces.

[Jonny B]

It is amazing how much a difference those small details can make (and how much they can drive you crazy when they are not right!). I think you certainly have the right approach.

[andyburns]

Cheers Jonny,  I just dont know how interesting these small details are to others.  I have been guaging interest by how many views the thread has been getting.  Whenever I go into to finer detail I watch the numbers tapering off.  I get really caught up in them and at the time to me they are incredibly interesting.  But when I stand back and size them up often I think it probably like paint drying to others.  Just hope in years to come this blog is somehow useful to others who are going through the same journey.  As they say 'everything is easy if you know how'. 

[mbzse]

.../...Decided on my arrival to tackle the small dash tip pieces.  This time I would thin the leather down to almost paper like proportions to get it to stretch.  I started the job with the up-most confidence the result would be positive..../... after three hours of effort I now have two pieces of abused leather and a naked aluminum panel sitting on my desk. I tried every tactic know to man, heat, steam, slow pressure.  I even let the dog chew on it for a good 20 minutes to see if tenderisation by mouth would get me a result.   Nada.  I officially suck at leather work specifically where forming around tight complex corners are concerned..../...

Andy, you certainly are productive and achieve fine results with your Pagoda interior in your garage.
I wrote earlier about thinning leather down, and it would be of interest to read some more about your experiences with doing this. I will supply some pics here of my original leather underdash panel, where the factory approach will be illustrated. Of course, they most likely had roller (rotary) cutters for their use.

I have found out that one area where this leather thinning is common practice is within book binding. See for instance http://www.ehow.com/how_8589396_handthin-leather.html or this well illustrated instruction: http://www.classicbells.com/verlane/skiving/skiving%20leather.pdf. So perhaps we in our hobby can learn from bookbinding.
/Hans in Sweden

[andyburns]

Hi Hans,  I would love to see your photos.  I am sure any record of what the factory did will be of huge benifit to all the members both current and future.

I have really just used a trial and error and more importantly a common sense approach to the leather.  One thing I was determined not to do was thin out the leather where it wasn't required.  I paid so much for the leather I just couldn't stomach tipping half of it down the drain!   Also after thinning out some of the leather I can categorically say that the process would reduce the durability of the material which is obvioulsy less than desirable.

With these two rules I just went about identifying the bits that needed thinning.  Sometimes this unfortunetly occured after I had glued the leather on.  Example the leather on the top of the windscreen.  Didn't realise it was too thick until I fitted up the chrome trim which tightly hooks over it. 

The only two areas I think you really need to do it, from my experience so far, are the windscreen top and the dash.   I am only half way through so this list may increase.

If you take your time on any of the other bits you will be ok.  Even my horn button was done without thinning which I have heard others suggest has to be done.

When I picked up my chrome plating yesterday I had a bit of a sick feeling after realising that these had a very fine lip which the underdash pads hook into.  I wondered all the way home if I was going to be pulling all the leather off and starting again.  But when I got home I found that the leather was an absolutle perfect snug fit into these lips.  I reviewed my photos and discovered that the old mbtex was actually undersized and had a few gaps.

In summary I wouldn't get to caught up with thinning.  I am however very interested to see how the craftsmen and Mercedes did it in the day.

I also think that the reason it may have been done was to speed up production not necessarily because it had to be done.  Simply just made it quicker to fit and therefore increased profit margins.  This could have led to and inferior product and premature failure.  I think I have seen and heard this a few times on areas where thinning has taken place.   I certainly dont want to copy a technique not understanding the motivation if it can be done in a better and more durable way.

I know that the assertion that perhaps Mercedes took some short cuts might be absolute blasphemey to you guys but at the end of the day they were in business to turn a profit and along the line must have taken some shortcuts to help that cause.

Food for thought.  Interested on what you think.

In regards the physical activity of thinning the leather I have been using a belt sander.  Absolutley perfect for just doing the target areas you want to concentrate on.  Its not diffiuclt to hold the leather with one hand upstream of the sander and let rip with the other.  Even small pieces can be done like this.  The only caviet is to make sure your doing it on a perfectly smooth surface as any imperfections or high points will cause irregularities in the thickness.  At the end of the day you want to accuratley control the thickness so this is a very bad thing.

Before I was thinning I was also using a crayon to mark the area.  You can easily get lost and go off on different tangents.

I think commercially Mercedes would have thinned the entire piece of leather through a thicknesser machine before they even started.  I would be interested in seeing your photos.  It would be great to find an original piece of dash board leather and take a few measurements to confirm. 

I was intially using a digial micro to get a feel for the thickness but after a while you get a feel for it.  As your saning away you sort of also got through a few different layers until you get right down the backing of the skin.  I recommend that before you start you take a scrap piece and take it all the way down to get a feel for it.  I completly stuffed my first couple of 'good' pieces by not understanding how the material was going to behave when it got really thin. 

Another thing to look out for is when it gets really thin its much easier for the belt sander to grab it and pull it into its wheel.  If this happens when its paper thin say goodbye to the entire piece.  You will be starting again.  This also happened to me.

I didn't end up loosing too much leather to these types of blunders but did come the realization that its better not to take the risk if you dont need to.

Hans, hope this answers a few of your questions about my 'experiences' with leather.  Its hard sometimes to expose your cockups but if you guys get some benifit I dont mind you all having a good laugh :'(

[andyburns]

After I spent a couple of hours securing our kids trampoline and all the other loose stuff in preparation for the big blow tonight I still got a bit of time for the car.   Didn't want to rush things but I did work quite quickly to get the leather glued up to the glove compartment. Quite a tricky shape with all the internal angled surfaces.

Quite happy with the result.  Is almost a pity this piece will exist in total black out conditions when finally back in the car.

[JamesL]

Awesome! Work, thread and dedication!

Brilliant

[Valvechatter]

Andy,
Your glove compartment looks fantastic and your mother would be proud of your sewing machine work. Must be a good feeling to have it installed.
Lin

[andyburns]

Cheers guys, again not exactly perfect but 'I did it myyyyyy way'

[star63]

Very nice, Andy ! You really have the patience to go the extra mile and get the details right.

And what a pace - don't you ever sleep?

[andyburns]

Thanks Petri, really though the pace is embarrassing.   If anything I sleep too much.  Try not to do any resto work at night so the family life doesn't suffer.  Usually out of the garage by 6pm at the latest.  At the moment I finish work at 3pm so have a bit of time with the kids and then 2 hours on the car.  It quite limiting.   

A pro interior guy would have the entire interior finished in a couple of weeks!  My lack of substantial progress is a reflection of someone 'learning on the job'!  To me the restoration is crawling at the moment.  It already March and I am now 14 months in with probably another 6-8 to go.  My initial estimate was 6 in total so to that extent I am a total failure. 

[andyburns]

Stared stripping the two panels that cover the wheel wells.  Quite a complex structure so I havn't been looking forward to this one.  Was to wet to work outside so we borrowed the kitchen table. Got my son onto the job on pulling the edges of the outer skin.  He did really well and lasted until is fingers got sore and slithered off to watch TV.

[andyburns]

Took an absolute eternity to clean these back to clean ali.  I initially used petrol to soak into the foam.  Much cheaper than solvent.  Once all the foam is gone I revert to a combination of paint stripper and solvent. 

[andyburns]

Finally stitched up the tabs ready for installation.  6 hours of work to this point..  Am quite exhausted so am going to leave the rest for another day.  Have had a huge tree come down in the cyclone so have my day already booked up on non car stuff

[andyburns]

After the big clean up I spent the afternoon working on the thin metal stay that hold the back edge of the leather/mbtex on the soft top hatch.    Same story as usual.  Lots of glue to get rid of. 

It was a bit rusty so I decided to paint it.  Water can get down behind the leather under this stay in then soak the foam.  I have seen a few hatches where the foam appears to have disintegrated down the back edge.  I am picking this is why.   

May as well protect it the best I can.  I think it was just gold pacifated at the factory.

As soon as this has dried will blow a very thin coat of satin black over it so the tabs which are pushed through the hatch dont look out of place when the hatch is open and in the air. 

As soon as I have done this I will be into installing the leather.

[andyburns]

Have been trawling through the forum to see if anyone had posted detailed info on how to redo the foam on the soft top hatch.  Search has proved unfruitful so far.  I really dont want to get this one wrong so thought I would throw a photo in to show how I intend to do things.  If any of you guys have any thoughts I would appreciate them.  It would be wonderful if one of us was an experienced upholsterer.  There is so much tricky hand applied upholstery in these little beauties that as a group we would benefit greatly with this type of advice and guidance.  My experience tells me thus far that most of its achievable with patience and the right advice!

Anyway I think I had previously talked about trying to avoid a ridge line showing through the leather of where the leather meets the steel band its glued to.  The only way I can think off is to overlap the foam but this would mean installing the leather on the metal band, then installing the band on the hatch and then overlay and glue the foam.  This would mean that if you ever have to take off the band it would stuff the foam but I guess if its installed properly this is going to be a very rare occurrence.

Another worry is the two 45 degree corners the leather has to stretch around.  Am interested in anyone experience with these.  Am picking they are tricky.  I have seen a few hatch covers where they have sewed these up in two parts.

[mmizesko]

Andy,

What foam?

I just stripped the boot lid leather off my hatch in january.  It was all original from the factory, and the leather was glued directly to the painted aluminum hatch.  There was lots of glue that a bead blaster was necessary to remove, but I am unaware that MB put any foam layer in there.  If necessary, could someone let me know, as I am a few weeks from putting my new leather on.

Thanks,

Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH