Restoration Difficulty Level

[rutger kohler]

Hi Andy, I had a bumper badge in  3 different colours on it in different panels for a wolseley 4/44 re-enamelled about 10 years ago.  I took it in to a local engraver shop (Whangarei) and they sent it away. the badge returned in great shape.  NZ Classic Car magazine website might be able to help?  Follwing your story with interest.

cheers

Rodger

[andyburns]

Had a go slow day yesterday.  Finished up the speaker install and now have the cross overs wired and hidden tucked up under the dash board.  The passenger side one fitted nicely along side the glove compartment on the horizontal metal dash shelf.  I just used a couple of cable ties to hold it in place.  The drivers side one wasn't so easy with all the room taken up by the steering column and pedal cluster.  So with this one I used velcro and have positioned the crossover high above the kick panel.  Good as gold here as long as your velcro doesn't let go.  I took extra precaution and used ados F38 to glue the velcro to the car.  I have had issues in the past with the velcro backing adhesive giving up in the heat.  Snaked all the speaker wires back to the passenger seat compartment where the new D type amp is going to reside when it finally turns up.  Not sure yet how I will secure the amp.

Spent the rest of the day assessing what I am going to do with the diff.  I was just going to leave it in an suck up the slight oil leak it has but now I have realized how out of place it looks under the pristine undercarriage.   Also last owner in his wisdom has sprayed bitumen under seal everywhere.  I have laboriously removed 90% off it with solvent, scrapers and shear determination, but under the and around the diff I cannot get too with all the gear in the way.  Also the springs are preventing me from getting to the towers.  I really want all the gear out so I can strip everything and start the same process the rest of the underside has been afforded.

I am 90% sure I will end up ripping it all out but at present am mentally just trying to prepare myself for a setback of another month or so on the project duration.  At the back of my mind I have always known it was looming but just kept ignoring it hoping it would somehow miraculously go away on its own.  Wishful thinking in the extreme.

I would really appreciate some advice from you guys on how to tackle the diff as I don't have much knowledge in this area.  I am keen to here if there is anything I need to be careful off during the removal and the best way to ensure it doesn't leak again. ie which seals to replace.  I am almost certain its either leaking from the pinion or the main case seal.  It looks as if someone has sealed it with cheap silicon with remnant of black silicon dags hanging off in numerous places.

I will probably just buy the best sealant I can get my hand on, say 3bond or the like, and completely do a job on the thing.  I would love to get some advice from the top dogs in here on how to do this properly.  Really just need a bit of encouragement and guidance to get on with things.

One last query, is it best to take the compensator spring out while the diff is still on the car or just as easy when the unit it out?

[jameshoward]

Hi, Andy,

Here's a pretty comprehensive thread on my diff change that may help:  http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18228.0

I would say pull it, without question. Given the work you've done to date it would seem crazy not to.

Removing it isn't too bad. Stripping it down is pretty comprehensively covered and quite a few have done it. As for the spring, having done this a few times now, I'd remove it with the spring in place (you will need to compress it to take the pressure off the spring; I think I have posted a few pics of a home made tool). Removing the spring in situ I found nearly impossible.

As for anything to look out for, just watch the the swing axle part doesn't get banged as part of the casing could fracture. I think the detail is covered in the above thread; Joe A makes reference to the risk. Going steady, and reading up on the job, you'll be fine. Removal and install is far, far easier with help. The rear axle is bloody heavy.

James

[rutger kohler]

Hi Andy, if you are going to change the pinion seal, I have made up some tools that make it a lot easier which you can borrow after the 12th of next month.

[GGR]

Be careful not to break the main casing: when both shocks are off and the center spring is still on, the axle goes to maximum positive camber and the universal joint in the center then comes into contact with the casing. if the axle falls or gets mishandled, it is easy to break the casing.

[andyburns]

Thanks guys, I have all but decided to pull the thing.  Damn it!  I here what you are saying about cracking the diff housing.  Same issue with the 108's.  I have pulled out several of these before and the first one I wrecked I destroyed the diff by being too rough.  I had the car hoisted on its side supported in a tree and let the entire rear end free.  Crashed to the ground from vertical.  Am sure you can imagine the damage.  Needless to say I learnt from that mistake.

I know I get the unit out by myself in a fairly short period of time, it more what do I do with it when its out.  I am almost certain that the last guy refurbished it.  All the bushes look fresh and it had a fresh coat of paint on it when I purchased it.  Just this damn leaking that I want to fix.  I really want to keep the car standard so am not going to contemplate any brake or gear alterations so its really just pull it out try and reseal and check.  Will definitely do a chemical strip of all the paint and start again on the cosmetic side of things. 

Rodger,  I will take you up on the offer of help with the rear pillion seal if you would be so kind.  When its out I will take some good pictures and post them up here for all your eagle eyes to point out things that need attention.   All your help is greatly appreciated.

[jameshoward]

Andy,

When it comes to what to do with it, there are some really good write-ups - ie succinct and detailed - on the site. I think I've referenced a few in the post, below.

When you have it apart it would obviously make sense to examine and if necessary replace the large steel and rubber bush that is so often talked about. It's about 70 euros over here, but will last a lifetime once done. That job also involves replacing a few small copper bushes and the rubber seals when reassembling. The key thing to do as I'm sure you know from having done this with 107s is to index with a metal punch the castillated nut to the axle and thus avoid having to go through the hassle of fitting a new crush sleeve and re-establishing the torque settings, etc.

When I did this last year, I replaced the two wheel bearings and the oil seals, but the remaining bearings looked to be in excellent shape. Most of the hassle I had doing this came from digging out powerder coating which had go to where I hadn't expected it to be, and changing from drums to discs (which involves, basically, a complete re-do of all the brakes, lines, master cylinder change, etc). The axle was the least of my issues.

[andyburns]

Have listened to what you guys have said and decided to compress the compensating spring and remove the diff in the next 24 hours.  I am busy trying to find or borrow some compressors.   

In the mean time my hub cap paint masks arrived yesterday.  Gutted.  Beautiful piece of Mercedes engineering but unfortunately for the wrong cap.  Is perfect for the one piece unit but no good for the early two piece arrangement as the star is much smaller.    Arrrggghhhhhh.  Have been waiting for months for the mask to arrive as well. 

[andyburns]

Diff Resto Part 1 - Assessment in the car

Posted some pictures here for you guys to have a look at what I am dealing with.  As I said I dont think its actually too bad but am interested in your thoughts.

[andyburns]

To give you an idea of where I want to get the back end of the undercarriage to take a gander at the front.  It would look just awful on hoist if only half of it was restored.  I spent an age getting the front to this point and its still need final paint.  I am reading with great interest the other debate going on in here about what the under body should look like.    I can blow the final coat when that has been settled.  Currently its sitting with 2k epoxy and a top coat of 2k etch primer.  So nicely protected.  I really want to get into the rear and give it the same treatment.

[jameshoward]

The rear axle looks very good. The boot looks good and all the clips appear original, although it looks like the axle has clearly been painted.

Personally, and from experience, I wouldn't waste time trying to secure some normal spring compressors as I doubt you'll get them in. An easier option would be to place the ends of the tubes on stands, put some weight in the boot and run a length of threaded studding through the spring and then put backing nuts on a strong strip of metal and tighten. That should give you sufficient compression such that when you drop the swing axle, the spring will cease to apply pressure to it.  It's fiddly, but it was I found the easiest way to compress and decompress the spring for removal and replacement.

If I haven't explained that we'll - and it's early!! - I can probably find a picture.

James

[andyburns]

Hi James,  I decided to go commando and build my own compressor.  First It tried different purpose spring compressors but none of them either fitted into the spring or were small enough to fit on the outside.  Personally I have a very healthy respect for springs after almost having my head taken off in a very close call several years ago so I needed a solution I was comfortable with.  I really like compressing springs centrally from down their cores.  The clamp on over the edge types give me the screaming s%$ts.

I ended up with quite a cute compromise.  See photo.

I was making great progress today and was right on track for pulling the lot when a string of unexpected visitors dashed my cunning plans.  Although after several cups of coffee I feel all revved up and ready to go again. 

I am convinced the diff has been gone over before which makes my decision making all the more complicated.  Do I strip down and replace everything?  Guess I just have to get in and look at each pieces of rubber in turn and make a plan.

 

[GGR]

That's half a steering coupling you have there on your tool.

Given the level of your restoration, it just makes sense to take the rear axle out to finish the back cosmetically. Once the rear axle is on the floor, It is not that difficult to take it apart and check for wear. Was it noisy? growling (bearings)? or howling (backlash)? If there was none of it, then your backlash and inner bearings are most seemingly good. You can still check all that visually, but don't alter the adjustments. Check the center pin in the diff carrier. On bigger V8 models it ends up having some play. Not likely on yours, but you never know. Also check the sliding sleeve inside the universal joint. It should move freely. If not, it is most likely cracked. This is also quite common on bigger engine models, but it can also happen on smaller engine models. Lots of fun putting it back with all the little rollers! Also check for radial play of the right wheel tube relative to the casing. If you have some, the bronze sleeves will most likely need replacing. This is often due to lack of greasing the two greasing points, and the sleeves can end up with deep scoring. Mileage can also ovalize them. Check  for the condition of the center rubber mount. If worn, the center arm will get out of position and throw the angle of the rear end off, mostly upwards. Don't use after market rubber parts. They don't last long, and you don't want to take the axle out again in a few months to replace a cracked center boot or a collapsed center mount.

[rutger kohler]

Andy, it is well worth replacing the rubbers on both ends of the trailiing arms (back suspension) and the pins on the back of the arms often need replacing too.

cheers

Rodger

[andyburns]

Hey GGR,  the car drove really well before I took it apart.  No strange noises from the drive train whatsoever.  I am well used to listening out for them as well with one of my W108 giving me troubles for years on end with all sorts of funny noises and vibrations.  I think I am up to drive shaft no 3 trying to fix the problem.

All the rubber I looked at today seemed to fresh to be factory and I would guess its all under 20 years old with minimal use.  The car has only traveled 2000 miles since 1985.

I also paid particular attention to the drive shaft center coupling which seems almost brand new.  Also of interest is the sliding drive shaft spline which has caused me so much grief on the 108.  If they accidentally slip apart and are put back together in a different orientation it can cause all sorts of balance issues with the entire two piece arrangement being balance as one unit at the factory.

The 108's dont have any marks to show the correct alignment which I always thought to be a terrible oversight.  But the 230 shaft I pulled today seems to have very clear marking to show exact orientation of the two half shafts.   The shaft on the 230 seems to be in beautiful condition in all respects so I just need to do the cosmetic thing and bang it back in.  In saying that the cosmetic thing on this component alone is probably 4-5 hours  

[andyburns]

Cheer Rodger,  once I have the diff out I am going to take heaps of photos and then give it one huge clean.   After which I will take some good close ups of all the rubber components and post them in here for your careful scrutiny.  At this point though I am going to put my head on the block as make a prediction that nothing needs to be changed.   Well that's probably my wishful thinking talking out loud again.    I think its all been done not so long ago.  When you get back I would appreciate if you could stop by for a coffee and give me your opinion.

[jameshoward]

Hi James,  I decided to go commando and build my own compressor.  First It tried different purpose spring compressors but none of them either fitted into the spring or were small enough to fit on the outside.  Personally I have a very healthy respect for springs after almost having my head taken off in a very close call several years ago so I needed a solution I was comfortable with.  I really like compressing springs centrally from down their cores.  The clamp on over the edge types give me the screaming s%$ts.

I ended up with quite a cute compromise.  See photo.

I was making great progress today and was right on track for pulling the lot when a string of unexpected visitors dashed my cunning plans.  Although after several cups of coffee I feel all revved up and ready to go again. 

I am convinced the diff has been gone over before which makes my decision making all the more complicated.  Do I strip down and replace everything?  Guess I just have to get in and look at each pieces of rubber in turn and make a plan.

 

That's the way I did it. It was fiddly, but safe. Even the compressors you had to canibalise look the same as mine. No wonder they didn't fit.

As others have said, it's pretty easy to strip down and check. I agree with your sentiment that the strip is worth doing to a point; you don't want to get involved with shims and other stuff if there's nothing wrong with the axle. You may want to consider just putting a tube of seal conditioner in the diff and see how that works, although I apprecaite that you won't know until you remount it, so maybe not.

I agree with Rodger on replacing the bushes on the trailing arms. Cheap and easy and as I said it may be worth looking at the bronze (not copper - doh!) bushes and the rubbers that cover them. I think the PNs are in my original post.

Worth checking the breather on the diff and replacing the material inside it whilst your there. Folk here have used the filter material from those vacuum filters (HEPA, is it?) Seems to work. You should replace the oil seals at the end of the axle tubes. Cheap and easy. Obviously you'll check the wheel bearings. The standard bearing is about 10 euros, so may be worth considering; the (considerably) more expensive bearing is less likely to wear as quickly so is probably fine I suppose.

Your photos, below, show very well both drive shaft grease nipples that I think most people miss when greasing the car. Useful for the maint wiki as I don't think those pictures are in there.

[mbzse]

.../...The 108's dont have any marks [on the drive shaft sections] to show the correct alignment.../...

It is advisable to start any workhop activity on the driveshaft by marking the position of the splines, for instance by chiselling a dot onto each driveshaft half
see pic below (modified borrowed picture), or perhaps a dot of paint
/Hans in Sweden  

[andyburns]

Mega Diff Day 

Got up early this morning and took a couple of hours to extract the rear end.  Took all the good advice in here and paid particular attention to handling the diff to avoid any damage to the casing.  I also compressed each spring in turn so I didn't do any damage to the bolts holding in the triangular plate.  I have had these shear off with cars I have wrecked where I didn't compress the springs and just unbolted the arm with the bolts all loaded up. 

I then spent another hour or so degreasing the entire unit with petrol after I ran out of proper degreaser.  This revealed that I actually have a mixed bag of replacement rubber scattered throughout.  Some brand new, some older and dry looking and some pretty buggered.

I still havn't got a clear game plan in my head.  Before I start stripping things I thought I would post good pictures in here and see what the experts think.

[andyburns]

More Diff Pics

[andyburns]

More Diff Pics

[andyburns]

More Diff Pics

[andyburns]

I am going to hang off doing anything with the diff until I have got some good advice and a sound game plan.  Until then I will work on the floor pan again.  Started off with a sharp knife and peeled off as much of the heinous black tar under seal that the some muppet applied by the inch.  This took me a good hour or so to get it back to the factory under seal.  I really want to preserve as much of the original fabric as I can and a good amount of the factory under seal actually looks really fresh.  Just have to overcome the problem of the non factory muck getting into all the nooks and crannies.

After I had finished with the scraper I then spent a couple of hard hours on my back with a angle grinder with a coarse steel brush attached.  First pass at cleaning any sign of rust back to bare metal and also scraping off any black tar underseal that I missed with the knife.

I definitely have a long road ahead of me before I am ready for paint but do feel that I had a really productive day.  Good feeling.

[rutger kohler]

Hi Andy, the trailing arm pivots shown in the top photo of your 9.58 post definitely need pulling apart.  There are rubbers and trunnion shafts that will need inspection and probable replacement.  These critturs are fiddly to take apart and quite frankly dangerous when you compress them to put them together again.  I made some little tools up and pressed them together in my 12 tonne shop press and you are welcome to se this if you need to after I get back home

[andyburns]

Hey Rodger, this stuff is all way above my pay scale so any help to get it right is much appreciated.   I am interested to know if you can determine if the rubber is worn without stripping everything.  I was thinking that if they were worn then the arms would get quite sloppy.  Mine are really tight with no lateral slop detectable at all.  I am however thinking that without taking these off I wont be able to paint them properly.  I am tossing up if I should get all of it powder coated or not.  I may just give it all the epoxy treatment.