Restoration Difficulty Level

[andyburns]

Naj one of the changes was to a pertroix electronic ignition.  The coil is what came with the car.  I have wondered if this could be the cause but thought it unlikely as the car started so well when cold.  I did however further suspect it as a possibilty as the plugs are fouling and i can also smell unburnt fuel in the exhaust quite stongly but put this down to the fact that i often start the car on the cold start.  

[andyburns]

Hans i do beleve you are correct regarding the soft top fabric.  My point was around the fabric wrapped around the hardtop bows which in my case seems all together sepatate from the soft top.  I posted a close up of the fabric, which is a  vinyl,  to see if anyone recognized it as factory.

As  if it is then its likely that early 230s did not have the soft top secured to the bows.  I have found during my journey that very early 230s have quite a few very destinctive design differences that can easily trip you up when buying various incompatible parts.

Its going to be a very interesting situation if indeed i was sold an incompatible soft top canvas .  Well out of warranty period now but there is absolutely no doubt i made it 100 percent clear to the vendor that it was an early 1964 230sl.  I had issues with the fitment of the seat set as well.  Was sent seat covers for the 280.  The early 230 seats were much thinner at the top due to different seat pads.  I had to had to have the seat covers picked apart and modified at great expense.

When you buy off a vendor who specialises in these cars, and you provide them with all the relevant information, there is an expectation that the correct part will arrive on your doorstep.  Especially so when you live on the other side of the world where shipping costs are so expensive.  I have gone into battle with vendors where the wrong stuff has clearly been sent.  Usually the accept the mistake is theirs but then turn around and ask me to pay to send it back.  With something as large as these parts that cost usually runs into the hundreds.  My response to the vendors is 'why should I end up footing the cost for you mistake'

So it will be interesting to see what happens with the soft top canvas.  Fingers crossed it can be used.  I sure as hell dont need another  battle on my hands.  Too tired and worn down at this point.

[mbzse]

.../...My point was around the fabric wrapped around the hardtop bows which in my case seems all together separate from the soft top.  I posted a close up of the fabric.../...

You are right, I did not quite catch your point. As I now look more closely at your pictures I understand what you are after. Sorry I have no definite answer. Could it be that the wrap around the bows was put there by the person who mounted the repro fabric "black inside" soft top(?).

I have found during my journey that very early 230s have quite a few very destinctive design differences

That is so! Seems the factory made many adjustments and changes to the initial W113 design, as need arose over time.

I sure as hell don't need another  battle on my hands.

I do hope you can avoid this
/Hans in Sweden
.

[andyburns]

Thanks Hans,  the soft top mystery endures.  If its easy could  you possibly post some close ups of the inside of your hard top showing how the top is secured to the bows.  If I end up going this direction its going to be really useful to know how the fabric wings are wrapped around and trimmed up over the bows.

Today I took the various parts from the soft top frame that were rusty down and blasted them.  The large soft top clamping bar was a real pain in the A.  Didn't fit too well in the booth. 

The two side clamping bars were in quite bad shape.  Badly pitted.  Must be a weak point of the car.  I suppose when its been driven in the rain moisture is blown down the side of the car under the softtop canvas and under these bars.   I have done a pretty thorough check and I am sure these parts are NLA.  So no choice but to refurbish them.  Originally they were just zinc plated.  Probably totally inadequate and a bit of a mistake on the part of mercedes looking at how much they have corroded.  I dont want to plate them again as the pitting will introduce lots of little pin holes for water to get into as well. 

Have put a heavy coat of zinc on all of the parts and will blow some very thick coats of 2k epoxy primer on.  Then will probably just paint them silver to match the original zinc plating.  Should be good for another 50 years.

Also started refurbishing my spare W108 short fuel pump in case I need it.  I will sell it to try and recoup some of the cost of replacing the worn unit if it isn't used.

[mbzse]

../... possibly post some close ups of the inside [a soft top] top showing how the top is secured to the bows. If I end up going this direction its going to be really useful to know how the fabric wings are wrapped around and trimmed up over the bows

I have these pictures which I hope I may borrow and show for your benefit (very likely they originate in this Forum)
/Hans in Sweden
.

[getsmart]

Hi Andy,

I began rebuilding my fuel pump and though its not finished yet I'm glad I did. You can see from the attached photo that the inside of the electrical part of the pump was full of carbon from the brushes wearing down over 40 years of driving. Also the bearings did not run smoothly. I think both would contribute to a slower moving pump. I can't prove it yet but I would think its going to speed it up....

I bought a repair kit from George Des from this forum for around $45 usd which contained the new brushes and bearings....I think its worth doing...the carbon you see is a handful, I couldn't believe it ! And it still ran !

http://getsmartpagoda.tumblr.com/

Rgds, Joe

[andyburns]

Thanks joe.  Tried to get hold of George but his box is full.  Anyone have alternative contact details.

[Peter van Es]

Any board member can forward your request to their e-mail address…

Peter

[andyburns]

Any board members up to helping out here.

[Garry]

Andy,

send me a PM and I will on forward it to George.

Garry

[andyburns]

Spent yesterday on all sorts of bits and pieces.  I went to a company that just sell orings and seals.   Took my short W108 latter style pump with me in pieces and spent a good hour with the guys finding replacement seals.  Learn t a ton about seal technology and all the different types of material used.  Definitely not all seals are created equal.

Walked away with enough bits and pieces to put the W108 pump back together.  I raided it for parts to get my W113 pump functional.  Gave the internals a huge birthday.  Cleaned out the filters and all the internal galleries and linished off the two ali surfaces the spinning impeller run on with 3000 grit paper.  Slammed it all back together and tested it.  Didn't have much hope as I had previously tried to test this pump and couldn't get anything from it.

I did discover to get them going that I had to prime it which I had previously not done.  I had read that they are self priming but looking at the internals and how they worked started doubting this.  It didn't take much, just tipped 250ml down the inlet and off it went.  Once there is fluid in the internal chamber then it possible for the pump to start chewing on something and generate a bit of a head/vacumn to be able to suck more fluid in.

I don't have a pressure gauge but just based on my memory its pushing heaps more pressure than my original pump.  I will wait to get hold of the gauge to confirm.

But in the mean time can someone tell me whats involved in mounting the latter short pump in an early 230sl.  I would love to keep everything looking original including the square pump cover.  I have the original legs that the pump bolted to.  They bolted up to the floor pan of the W108.  Obviously the holes wont be the same so what are my options here.  

I think I will use this pump to confirm if the hot start issue is related.  If it is then I will eventually put the correct refurbished pump back in but may leave this in place as a stop gap measure.

[andyburns]

Fitted up my new hatch cable kit that I ordered from one of our members Mehmet who manufactures quite a few bits and pieces for the 113.  The kit has a new cable inner and the slider attachment which is traditionally pressed or crimped onto the end of the factory cable.  This particular part means its near on impossible to fix the original if it breaks.  A new cable is a couple of hundred and the kit from Mehmet is only 30 Euro delivered.  The slider attachment piece is beautifully machined and is held on the cable with two small grub screws.  So if the cable breaks again it can just be slid out and replaced. 

Once I had the hatch nicely adjusted I moved on to my hub caps.  Finished the masking and have now blown the etch primer.  Will get onto the top coat in the next couple of days.

[Naj ✝︎]

Hi,Andy,

To use the short pump, you would need to add a three legged bracket (#92 in pic) and three studded mounting rubbers (shown with #92) available from MB.

To use the dirt shield, you would have to butcher it.
Pictures later.

"JonnyB:
I believe these pumps are not self priming, and the inlet needs to be at or below the level of the outlet of the fuel tank. The legs as Naj reports provide that extra spacing, yes?"

Yes, the pump inlet has to be lower than the tank outlet
 

 

 

JonnyB:

Naj

[Jonny B]

I believe these pumps are not self priming, and the inlet needs to be at or below the level of the outlet of the fuel tank. The legs as Naj reports provide that extra spacing, yes?

[andyburns]

Thanks Jonny and Naj.  Really really want to keep everything original or for it to be able to be reverted back to original.  So if I run with the short pump for a while I will just leave the mud cover off.  Probably just jerry rig up some sort of temporary bracket. 

I was reading another post last night that JA commented that the clamped off pressure of the pump should be closer to 30-40psi and that with it free flowing back into the tank it should be 14-18psi.  My existing pump is 8psi clamped at the pump which doesn't bode too well with me at the moment.  I will measure off the clamped pressure of the short pump early next week and report back.

Things with the engine have got quite depressing at this end.  Its a lovely day so I decided to see if I could get the thing running and go for another short trip just up our road.   I threw a brand new set of plugs in the car a few weeks back and initially they worked very well with a quick start up and smooth running engine. 

The longer I have run the car the worse the engine now runs till this morning it sounds as if its only firing on 4. 

I have wondered if the fouling plugs have been to do with a faulty coil.  I checked the spark a while back and it looked ok.   I am however no mechanical expert and the engine side is probably my worst suit.

The car to me smells overly fueled when just started.  A very strong smell of unburnt fuel out the back.  I dont know if this is normal on the cold start  circuit.  This 'feature' has been persistent since I have brought her back into life.  I didn't have enough time before taking it off the road to establish these traits.  I know my 280se didn't smell like this at any point.

So I have for a while also suspected that I have some sort of detonation issue.  The coil that came with the car is a very new looking Bosch unit but it never sat nicely in the factory cradle so I decided to use a bit of insulation tape around the coil to generate a bit more interference.  Two things here that have worried me 1) the coil may not be correct for the car 2) my insulation tape may be preventing some sort of earth that the coil requires to function correctly.  Point 2 I think is drawing a very long bow as most coils are painted which would provide the same type of electrical insulation. 

Anyway this morning I decided to start off my elimination process by replacing the coil with a know working bosch out of a 280se I wrecked. 

Same result.  The car is still running like a dog with no change what soever.

This afternoon I whipped the plug to see where we were at.  Brand new with probably no more than 30 minutes of run time.  They are fouled badly and half of them were quite wet.

I am interested in your guys thoughts.  Perhaps this is to be expected given I have been running the car for 5 to 10 starts on only the cold start circuit.  I don't know.  I did have the car running nicely the outer day and up to temp and it was still getting worse.

Am wondering if my hot start issue is related to the fouling?   Just have this niggling feeling that all my engine issues are related to a lack of detonation rather than the fuel problem. 

Just about to go and clean the plugs and see if I can get the engine up to temp and do the split linkage test.   

[andyburns]

SOS

A very sick feeling has just come over me this evening.  I cleaned my plugs and right away the car fired up cleanly and idled.  Obviously just a huge over fueling issue.

Took it for a drive and this time it was spluttering no more than 100m down the road limped home and immediately turned it off.  Hadn't even got to operating temp.  Wouldn't turn back on.

Went inside and thought a bit more about the problem and obvious over fueling issue.  Went back out and looked at the engine for some time. 

When I put the pump back in I didn't think much about it as I didn't really do anything to it.  Including the oil reservoir at the back of the pump.  Assumed the old oil was still in there.  I certainly didn't drain it deliberately.  As I was refitting the pump I wondered about it and decided to put a bit more oil in for good measure just in case some had spilled or it was a bit empty to begin with.  There is absolutely no way to tell how much oil is in here other than put a screw driver in to check for existence. 

I did this tonight and the screw driver came up totally dry.   If somehow I have fried my pump I am done for quite some time with this project.  Tears will be shed.

Can someone tell me how you know if this pump has sufficient oil.  Should it be filled right to the top?? 

Sick feeling!

[66andBlue]

Andy,
have you checked the oil level using the dipstick??

....
I was reading another post last night that JA commented that the clamped off pressure of the pump should be closer to 30-40psi and that with it free flowing back into the tank it should be 14-18psi.  My existing pump is 8psi clamped at the pump which doesn't bode too well with me at the moment.  I will measure off the clamped pressure of the short pump early next week and report back.....

Andy,
here are the specs for the feed pressure of the old style (long) fuel pump:

[andyburns]

Alfred you are a legend.  I had no idea that was a dip stick!!!!  I used to have a friend who owned a 230sl and the dip stick was attached to the red cap.  It was a latter car so perhaps it had a different new version pump. 

In any event thank you sooooooo much.  I can go to bed with a clear head tonight.  I am having issues with sleep as it is so I owe you!

I quickly popped my newly found dipstick (wife chuckling in background) and have discovered my oil level looks to high.  The oil is crystal clear by the looks.  The previous owner told me he had it rebuilt only 2k miles ago at a cost of 4000 so the prospect of frying it to me at the moment is mind blowing with my current situation. 

Any implications for having to much oil in the FIP???

Still a mystery to why the thing is over fueling so much.   Another potential sign is that I cant here the inrush of air through the small WRD filter.  My memory off it before I took the car apart, when it was running so well, was that even over the engine noise I could clearly clearly here the inrush. 

Perhaps the valve is stuck and I am getting more fuel but no air?

Should this be my next port of call and where do I start with this one.  Do you have to pull the whole WRD off to check?

Alfred thanks also for the pump stats.  They basically tee up with what I thought.  I should have 11.37 psi min.  I only took pressure measurements out of the car on the bench and the most I got was around 8psi with the output plugged so I am below the min spec.  I always new that but have had a couple of member in here report that they have similar pressure readings with no issue at all. 

Also my current problem seems to gross over fueling which is in contradiction to the not having enough fuel so I guess I have to chase this problem first.  If this logic is flawed please feel free to step in and knock me over the head with a large plank of wood.

Going to take a larazapam and try and get a good night sleep.

[Paul & Dolly]

Hi Andy,

Re  Bosch Pump Oil Level,

I found it very fiddly to check the level with the screw top/dipstick,
 so made an easier dipstick with a cable tie for level checking.

Good luck,
and I enjoy your regular project updates.

Paul

[GGR]

If you over filled the pump, you should get it back to the right level.

Sometimes too high a level means gas is making its way to the oil in the pump and the level goes up. try to smell the oil on the dipstick, or see if it is diluted.

[paults1]

To make sure the oil level is correct, pump out & measure the amount. It should not exceed 250ml. I use a "Mitty Vac" for this. There are several other home made devices to pump it out. Do search on this forum.
Regards, Paul

[Dave H]

Your right to worry about an over rich fuel mixture.
We can all remember back in the 1960s/70s the average life cycle of any engine ( mercedes no exception ) was about five to seven years. After 60,000 to 80,000 miles of everyday driving, most engines would develop an oil consumption problem and begin to experience loss of compression , blow by , oil dilution ,and consequently lower oil pressure.
Cylinder wash down had a lot to do with this ,an over rich fuel mixture washes the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls ,destroys the honing and generally wears the cylinders out.
Get the mixture right at all costs.

[andyburns]

Thank you all.  I have spent the morning swapping out my fuel pump for the W108 version to see if it would make a difference.  It didn't.   The over fuel issue is still present and seems to be getting worse.  Now the car is difficult to start even cold.

Regrettably I have decided to call it quits on the car for the time being.  I fear my tinkering has made things worse to the point I may have damaged the engine and feel it best that I  just take my hands off it and park it up until my circumstances change and I have the money to pay someone who is capable of diagnosing the problem and putting it right.

I may do a few more bits and pieces on the soft top just to get the frame back in the car given how I feel about it right about now it may just get pushed into the corner.

*broken*

[rgr69SL]

Andy,

sorry to hear about the ongoing troubles. I too had terrible over rich mixture when getting my car back on the road after a prolonged period inactive before I brought it as a rebuild project . Badly fouled plugs almost instantly, fuel in the oil, black smoke / soot out exhaust etc. As others have experienced it was a stuck rack in the fuel injection pump which once free made all the difference and the car ran perfectly after the usual tuning steps. I know you mentioned the rack as a possible cause previously but haven't seen a reply so thought I'd share my experience just in case you haven't checked it.

good luck and keep at it.

regards
Greg

[PIP1947]

Hi Andy
On the basis of your 108 experience, I'd hardly call you a 'rank amateur' and what you are doing with the 230SL is a well worthwhile exercise. Future generations will benefit from your efforts. Your 230SL looks very similar in colour to my January '68 Tunis Beige Metallic 280SL, right down to the wheels. What colour code is your car? I think mine is 462. As to your question about just driving the car, you may have been a little hasty. I once had a pretty rough burgundy '65 230SL I drove for years before spending any money on it - I never got around to re-conditioning the engine and, with some 300,000 miles on the clock it was smokey, but still strong, when I parted with it. My 280 SL has been well looked after since a late 80's spruce up, so I do the bare minimum and just enjoy driving it. I will be in Omaka over Easter for the classic airshow, but won't make it as far north as Auckland on this trip. Next time I travel to Auckland, however, I will make a point of checking out your restoration in person, if that's ok with you.
Regards
Philip French
Sydney
Tunis Beige '67 280SL