Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 947991 times)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1800 on: February 26, 2019, 02:47:50 »
I thought it would also be useful to throw up a couple of close up pictures of the rhd ball rod as well.

It is really unique.  Not only the ball end but also the opposite end of the rod that moves inside the baker lite has a really unique pivoted coupling peened onto it to take up and lateral movement of the input rod.  As the pedal assembly rotates the engineering of the assembly cant obviously produce a perfect strait line motion bearing down on the input pin.  Probably a 5 degree arc has to be accepted by the input pin so it has to pivot.

 I was thinking of remanufacturing this pin to suit a LHD unit but now feel that reproducing the baker lite might be lesser of the two evils.  Would be really interested to pull apart the left hand unit and see exactly how that is set up.  I have a second booster to return after it was tested faulty as well.  I might ask if I can have it for a reduced price just to go through this exercise.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1801 on: February 26, 2019, 06:36:06 »
Andy, I can sell you the diaphragms but as you’re finding out, diaphragms are not the only issue.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1802 on: February 26, 2019, 08:28:21 »
Stick as they say... I am now committed.  I just have to do what I can within my budget to fix it.  Sometimes that works out, other times you end up more out of pocket but at least this little project is getting my appitite back for restoration work and I am learning along the way.  I think the only bit that's going to slow me down is the baker lite.  I know the rest will be available somewhere.  My diaphragms are both in great condition other than one having a tear.  I am wondering if I can repair that one using the same vulcanising technique as you repair an inner tube....
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1803 on: February 26, 2019, 10:49:29 »
I'm telling you, there's more to this than meets the eye..... :)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1804 on: February 26, 2019, 11:22:43 »
Throw the dog a bone then stick.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1805 on: February 26, 2019, 20:27:30 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../...Fascinating history.  The worlds first plastic...
Came to think of Hoffman in "the Graduate":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1806 on: February 27, 2019, 01:34:56 »
You must love old movies Hans.  Never seen that one before.  Wish my dad gave me advice like that when I was younger.  If he had I wouldn't have to fix my pagoda myself!

I'm any event I moved my little project on a bit.  Sat down with my mate Barry who is the metallurgist who is going to do the 3d printing.

Showed him my broken baker lite and he has confirmed that we can easily make it from titanium or stainless in his printer. 

He has also confirmed that it will be an order of magnitude stronger than the Baker lite component.

He has identified that we can keep the weight and cost down by modifying the design to incorporate hollow section filled with a lattice like structure. 

Also confirmed that all surfaces that need to be machined are accessible.

So next step is to get the cad done and from there the job is priced per square mm.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 02:13:37 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1807 on: February 27, 2019, 10:02:51 »
It's interesting isn't it that the advice from your 3D printer guy is different to the advice from my 3D printer guy!
Anyone else have any 3D printing experience here?

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1808 on: February 27, 2019, 17:28:03 »
What was his advice stick. Not sure exactly what your getting at.  Can you elaborate.  Just about to spend several hundred dollars doing this and if you have a solution that's guaranteed I will take it if I can afford to.  As far as I am aware these baker lite posts are unobtainable?
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1809 on: February 27, 2019, 18:00:24 »
I was advised that a 3D printed part is significantly less dense than a part machined from solid so will not withstand wear (in this case sliding through a lip seal and a lip seal sliding through it).

In addition, for me this is a commercial proposition. I am considering fitting these parts to boosters/servos that I will sell or fit to my customers' cars so I need to be absolutely sure that the component I fit is not going to fail. The last thing I need is for someone's brakes to fail and have a sharp-suited lawyer knocking on my door.
Your own car is another matter entirely.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1810 on: February 27, 2019, 19:12:47 »
Stick I am printing these parts in 100% solid stainless steel or titanium and then machined.  I would have thought that in terms of wear and durability on a seal it would be perfect and much better than a plastic derivative.  Barry is sending me the specs on the strength of the material.  I have discussed with him at great length the fact it has to take a vacuum seal and he thought the surface was perfect.

The guys that are printing it are https://www.ram3d.co.nz/3d-metal-printing


What Barry did point out is that the part of the Baker lite that has failed was a terrible design that they appeared to have fixed in the latter boosters.  The small post that breaks off has a cutaway that channels vacum through an arc of about 90 degrees so the support for this post is compromised and the loadings are unequal around the circumference.

Printed in steel this would be much much stronger at this point of failure.  Given this point of the booster transfers all assisted and non assisted force to the master I would have assumed that this point is actually more safety critical than the vacum seal surfaces.  At the send of the day if assisted brakes fail you can always brake with non assisted.  I've been doing it for a couple of years.

On another matter I have also been contacting a brake outfit in the UK who have been around for decades and done many of the ate booster.  Rhd and lhd.

The owner has just sent me an email this morning saying that the rod specific to RHD boosters is imininetly exchangeable for the forked rod in my other booster.  If he is correct then this would eliminate the need to recreate the rhd early baker lite. 

If the newer booster does not have the same designed baker lite it unlikely to have failed in the same manner.  And if it does in fact accept the ball tipped rod then the only issues become the seals and diaphragms.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 19:17:48 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

getsmart

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1811 on: February 27, 2019, 20:01:19 »
Forget about the booster Andy, how good is the grass!!!!! :)

More seriously though I better get my booster out of the box, makes me wonder if it's another component I should refurbish whilst my car is in a 1000 bits.

These, Joe
Finding the red car
1964 230sl Restoration Project

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1812 on: February 27, 2019, 21:00:22 »
HI Joe.

You are a man after my own heart.  I do love a good lawn!

In regards to your booster, I wouldn't panic but I do know for a fact they hate sitting around.

My friend Kev who own a Mercedes car spares shop has mentioned it to me on more than one occasion.  Always listen to the parts guy!

Another tip is be very careful with it when you store or work on it.  I have now had two failures of boosters that came out working and went back in faulty.  I wouldnt take it any where near a bead blaster with fears that you get grit inside it and somehow damage the seals.

I will always have mine tested from here on in before reinstalling.  Its only 20 dollars here.  Cheap insurance on wasted labour.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1813 on: February 27, 2019, 21:44:55 »
I called Barry this morning to discuss the strength and and resilience of the 3d printing.  I guess as parts become unavailable this is where we are heading. His response as follows:


Hi Andrew.

Further to our discussion around replacing the failed bakelite parts with 3D-printed metal:


RAM3D in NZ (  www.ram3D.co.nz ) manufacture production parts in full-strength metal alloys.

As-printed the material is fully-dense (see attached microstructure of our stainless steel) and the same strength as the same material purchased "off the shelf" in bar or plate form. Our material properties are as per the table attached.


We print 3 tensile test bars with every batch of product produced, and no parts go out the door until the tensile test results are in.

With 10 years of continuous data we have the world's longest-running dataset in this area by many years.

We manufacture production parts for almost every industry imaginable, including defence, aerospace, space, marine, land transport, food production, construction, agriculture and a great many more.


Also attached is a micro showing typical faults found in poor quality 'off the shelf' metals that many manufacturers never test for and hence never know the faults are in there. We conduct a great many failure investigations in our metallurgical laboratory and have a wealth of knowledge and experience in the area of strengths and qualities of materials.


Regarding 3D-printing of metals there is a lot of hype and general lack of knowledge about what is good quality and what is not. Any process that uses a metal powder mixed with a binder, and subsequent 'debinding' and 'sintering' in furnaces will not produce a full-strength reliable part. The sintered structure is not fully dense and is full of stress-raisers.

In order to be fully dense, full-strength and reliable a 3D-printed metal part must be made from pure metal powder (not mixed with a binder), and it must be fully melted solid in the printing process.

 RAM3D's parts are solid metal as they come out of the printer. Our clients weld them, machine them, process them through any process that 'off the shelf' metals can be processed through - but usually with much better results as they do not have the flaws inherent in 'off the shelf' metals.

Industry, manufacturers and inventors are slowly taking-up the technology as they learn of it. Those who do usually leap-frog their competition in a big way as 3D-printing allows a product to be made to be the most functional it possibly can be - unrestricted by traditional methods of manufacture or material availability that usually restrict the functionality of a design.

As well as the caution about sintered metal parts, another big caution is for people who have enough money to buy a 'proper' metal 3D printer: You simply cannot buy a printer, add powder, press the button and get usable parts you can rely on. There is so very much more to it than that. You need some very special equipment and very special people skilled in metallurgy and design to make good parts. And you need full access to and understanding of laser parameters in order to get the machine working in a manner that will enable you to live long enough to see a good result. You don't buy a foundry and heat treatment shop because you want to make a few castings. Or buy a forging and heat treatment shop because you need a few forgings. You go to the experts who have invested many millions and many years learning. Unfortunately there are quite a few people making this mistake, with 2 bankruptcies so far in Australia as a direct result of uninformed leaping into this area. Worse still is uninformed, inexperienced and unknowledgeable operators making crappy product that gives the technology a bad name.

Buyers venturing into the technology should ask for tensile test results for their product batch.


Also attached is an article for an industry magazine that gives a fuller insight into additive manufacturing of metals. Unfortunately our best stories and product pics are restricted from publication by strict confidentiality arrangements.


I encourage anyone interested in learning more about the technology to contact me directly.


Regards, Barry


Barry Robinson

E barry@ram3d.co.nz
M +64 (0)27 286 4722

A 50 Paerangi Place

Tauriko Business Park, Tauranga 3171

PO Box No 16064, Tauranga 3147

F facebook.com/ram3dprinting 

 

www.ram3D.co.nz

 





Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

66andBlue

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1814 on: February 28, 2019, 03:00:21 »
Can anyone tell me where I might source a new diaphragm from.  Either genuine ATE or aftermarket.  There are two in the unit, the one I need is the outer one that sits closest to the master cylinder.
My one has torn in the crease which is apparantely really common as that is the area which moves the most I guess.  It could have been damaged also taking the unit apart but it looks historic to me.
Andy, you could contact ATE directly and ask whether the diaphragm/membrane is available:
http://www.ate-brakes.com/meta-navigation/contact/

However, be sure that you mention the T51 correct booster part number!
Looking at your photos I can see that it shows a p/n 3.6197-0220/4 and an internal part has the p/n 3.6118-5405.1.
The 3.6197 booster is not correct for your RHD 230SL - the correct one is 3.6197-0404.4 as shown in PeterW113's photo. See attached copy of the ATE parts catalog page.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1815 on: February 28, 2019, 03:18:47 »
Thanks Alfred.  I will contact ate tonight. 

The booster shown in your photo is the w108 spare I have.

The burning question is did ate and Mercedes resolve the clearance issue with the manifold in the 280 by going to a convex outer cover.

Ie do I take the opportunity to very sensitively change up the booster by one model to bring it into line with a rhd 280sl?

Still need a bit more investigation.

Much apprecuated

Andy
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1816 on: February 28, 2019, 18:41:08 »
Very interesting info Andy, thanks!
Since I will be on Aus on November perhaps I should re-consider.....

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1817 on: February 28, 2019, 23:04:45 »
Stick if you make it to NZ I can organize not only a bbq but also tour of the 3d and heat treatment facility! 

If I go ahead with the printing I am going to get them to take a time lapse video which should be interesting.  Its all going to boil down to the lowest cost solution though so at the moment all bets are still on.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1818 on: March 01, 2019, 11:02:07 »
Dear Mr. Ferns

Unfortunately offered never items for brake booster T51.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards
Henrik Breitmeyer

ATE Classic Programm-Koordinator
I CVAM IAM PPM BS


Continental
Division Interior
Business Unit Commercial Vehicles & Aftermarket
Rechnungsanschrift/ Billing address:
Continental Aftermarket GmbH
Guerickestrasse 7, 60488 Frankfurt, Germany

Besucheradresse / Visitors address:
Helfmannpark 1, 65760 Eschborn
Germany
Hotline:         +49 (0) 1805-22-12-42
Tel:               +49 (0) 69-7603-1962
E-Mail:ate_classic@continental-corporation.com
Home: http://www.ate-classic.de


114015

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1819 on: March 02, 2019, 02:43:12 »
No...,
That's also the same experience I made long ago with those ATE folks...
No official repair/overhaul/spare parts available for our T51 brake boosters!  :P :-X

Wasn't there a shop somewhere in California which could do our brake booster's overhaul...? :(
Including new diaphragm....? ???
Don't know about the broken bakelite part... Maybe not that.
But the rest .....
8)


Achim
(Going to try out that service for one of his old brakeboosters - and who does not want to put a T52 in his 113)
Achim
(Germany)

66andBlue

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1820 on: March 02, 2019, 04:28:36 »
.... Wasn't there a shop somewhere in California which could do our brake booster's overhaul...? :(
Including new diaphragm....? ???
Don't know about the broken bakelite part... Maybe not that.
But the rest .....

Achim,
I have used the "Power Brake Exchange" company at the Bell Gardens (Los Angeles) location [ http://www.pwrbrake.com/ ] twice and both times they replaced both membranes in a T51/200 and the units worked perfectly. Unfortunately, the owner in charge of this location passed away and I am not sure whether the knowledge and care has suffered now. They could not fix the T51/200 in my 1964 230SL twice and also a third attempt by the people in their San Jose facility could not get the job done.

Fortunately I had a spare and I asked another company in Upland (Los Angeles) [ http://www.karpspb.com/ ] to refurbish it and they did a very nice job (both membranes, much rust removal, polishing some parts but don't know which ones - and painting the housing for $390 plus shipping).

Officially the only parts that ATE sold for the booster were a seal ring, the dust/dirt cover, the filter and a muffling piece, and two check valve parts - the part numbers are in the black square column below.  But I believe that they will supply the membranes to repair shops.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 04:40:24 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1821 on: March 02, 2019, 20:11:07 »
Didn't quite make it to my car show today.  A bit down as I have missed every car show since I have had the car driving 4 years ago.   My bday today as well.  Will go along and look in any event.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

getsmart

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1822 on: March 04, 2019, 20:04:09 »
Thanks Andy I'll go and look for it and sus it out.

Rgds, Joe

PS. And hope you had a great birthday!!!!

----------


HI Joe.

You are a man after my own heart.  I do love a good lawn!

In regards to your booster, I wouldn't panic but I do know for a fact they hate sitting around.

My friend Kev who own a Mercedes car spares shop has mentioned it to me on more than one occasion.  Always listen to the parts guy!

Another tip is be very careful with it when you store or work on it.  I have now had two failures of boosters that came out working and went back in faulty.  I wouldnt take it any where near a bead blaster with fears that you get grit inside it and somehow damage the seals.

I will always have mine tested from here on in before reinstalling.  Its only 20 dollars here.  Cheap insurance on wasted labour.




 Logged

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 00:57:29 by getsmart »
Finding the red car
1964 230sl Restoration Project

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1823 on: March 05, 2019, 04:03:37 »
Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #1

Today Kev from Startech Enterprises here in Auckland very kindly gave me the T51 booster that was a candidate for replacement until it turned up faulty.

He has donated this for free so I can dissect it, take detailed photos and compare the inners with the rhd model.  I can figure out exactly what parts are in common and compare in detail the Baker lite hub which gives so much problem side by side with the lhd.

I am interested in particular to see if you can chop and change parts to take the rhd ball tipped input shaft.  Sounds rude but very accurate.

I have heard from a very experienced brake shop in the UK this is possible and easy.  But being the pessimist I am I want the evidence right in front of my eyes as I have heard conflicting opinions on this from other very trustworthy sources.

So...  I made some progress.  I thought pulling the main body apart was going to be really hard.  I made up a bit of a jig to hold the booster firm in my vice.  Clamping it from the pedal side of the booster.

Then I reinforced the studs that take the master cylinder and simply used a really long pry bar to rotate the outer case.  It's held in by a kind of bayonet type fitting which if twisted about 1cm either left or right clears about 20 interference tabs and then the outer case simply drops away.  It really didn't take to much force to twist it apart.  I did use healthy doses of wd40 to help things along.  I really don't think it will be that hard to reverse but I could be completely wrong

Immediately it was obvious why this booster was faulty with a good portion of the outer diaphragm torn.

I have now hit a bit of a snag as  need to undo a 45mm nut to proceed.  My biggest spanner is 35mm so will have to take a trip to the shop.

I know from talking to the guys that pulled apart my rhd booster that you have to go in from this side to get at everything so stopped in my tracks.

Will keep on going over the next couple of day.  Tomorrow my broken baker lite has an audience with the titanium 3d printer tech guy so will be interested to see exactly what he has to say.


Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

66andBlue

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1824 on: March 05, 2019, 05:03:48 »
....
Immediately it was obvious why this booster was faulty with a good portion of the outer diaphragm torn. ...
Hello Andy,
I hope you get this 45mm wrench soon, can't wait to see what you'll find when you take the piston out.
If you need a new diaphragm perhaps this company can help you, they list the ATE 3.6197:
http://floridacarparts-llc.com/?page_id=302
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)