Oil Questions

[afisk]

Hello,
I have a '67 230sl that needs an oil change. For some time the engine has burned oil. I am thinking about using the high mileage oil and also putting in an additive that is supposed to build up around the rings to allow for a better seal. Do any of you have experience with these additives? If so, what are the downsides to using them and is it a good idea to use them in an older car?
My other question is whether or not to put in the zinc additive when changing the oil. I want to use a 10 W40 oil and mix it with the zinc. Does the engine need the zinc additive?
Thanks for the help,
Aaron

[mdsalemi]

Aaron,

On an older engine burning oil, don't burn your money on a synthetic.  Go with a conventional oil designed for older cars with a high level of zinc and phosphorus.  I doubt you'll need an additive--save your money for a valve or ring job or whatever.

Almost all the oil manufacturers make at least one oil designed for flat tappet older engines and have high levels of zinc, ~1200 ppm.

[afisk]

I have had a few places tell me it's not a necessity to put oil in with high zinc contents. What would be the side effects of not having zine in my oil?

[jameshoward]

Well, you asked about zinc, and Michael said save your money,don't buy an additive, but get an oil with a high zinc content. That is sound advice. Its a bit odd that you now want someone to agree it's not good advice.

Bottom line: what Michael said. 

In the UK and Europe, oils for diesels often have higher zinc content. Not sure about the Colonies, where I recall that diesel tends to be more for trucks than cars. Most oil producers tend to provide data sheets listing the key attributes of a particular oil.

If you're somewhere warm in the States, and don't intend to drive in the depths of winter, you could elect for a 20w50 oil, which may work better for you.

[mdsalemi]

I have had a few places tell me it's not a necessity to put oil in with high zinc contents. What would be the side effects of not having zine in my oil?

Run away from those places; they are clueless. These older engines NEED levels of zinc and phosphorus, and the best place to get them is an oil made for an older engine. Be prudent in your purchases since if you are burning oil you've got some bills due in the future.

Personally I use the ONE Mobil1 synthetic designed for older engines, but it is expensive and I would not suggest this in an engine that burns it.

[enochbell]

There are a few companies making high zinc / low detergent oils specifically designed for classics and racing motors.  Their products are very expensive and I can't comment on how effective they are, but the information is interesting...

http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/Resources/Product-Reviews/All-Articles/2013/08/07/Classic-Oil?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Hagerty%20Weekly%20News%2008-14-2013

g

[GGR]

Zinc is needed in these engines, if you don't want to end up with flattened camshaft lobes. I was initially adding ZDDP in my oil but then I read some articles about it and basically you never now how additives combine chemically with the rest of the oil, with potential negative side effects. So the best, as mentioned by others, is to go with an oil that has been studied with zinc in it from the beginning. If you're burning oil, I too would suggest some 20W50. I'm using Brad Penn 20W50 which has the needed zinc in it. You can order it on line and it's quite competitive in terms of price.

When I was living in Europe I was using an additive called Metal-5 which was doing wonders. It had small particles of metal that were compensating wear. Older engines were burning less oil, compressions were going up. Not a permanent fix, but I was able to put quite some more miles on an engine before taking it out for an overhaul. I've never seen Metal-5 in the US.

[Benz Dr.]

You can add Zinc additive to to any oil - it will mix right in. Which oil you use can make a big difference but I would never, under and circumstances, use a non degergent oil in anything but an air compressor or maybe a really old engine.

[Flyair]

When I was living in Europe I was using an additive called Metal-5 which was doing wonders. I've never seen Metal-5 in the US.

GGR,
Metal-5 can be purchased online, but for some reasons it is only distributed (as far as I know) by French chains such as Feuvert or Norauto. And guess what… their pages are only in French…. BTW, not cheap, a small container is nearly 40US$.
http://www.norauto.fr/Acheter-Metal-5-Curatif/Lubrifiant/Notes-AvisClient-HuilesAdditifs/344349-NorautoSI-/1.html

[GGR]

And guess what… their pages are only in French….

Whaaaaat? They're not "International" ??!! 

[garymand]

Take a look at  MBCA Documents\Engine Oil Technical Presentation

Bottom-line, there are 2 ways to burn oil,  its either getting past the rings or valve guides.  Both are wrear issues.  If your motor burns oil, tell your friends you have a dual-fuel car, untill you can rebuild the motor.  All the damage is behind you (or in front in the motor) no modifications to the oil at this point will help.  any extra money should be saved for the rebuild or it will be burned along with the oil additives and pass on out the exhaust.  Its a little late to worry about zinc or ZDDP.  Its more likely you have lots of miles with few oil changes and the rings are worn out, the bore is too big at the top, there is chared oil stuck around and behind the rings keeping them from moving properly, and the pistons are worn to where new rings will have too much play in the grooves.   its not pretty, but doing anything to the oil at this point just won't help.
This below is taken directly from the above slides." Do NOT put an after-market ZDDP additive into your crankcase on any engines.
Use ONLY the correct oil for your engine as produced by the oil company.  ZDDP additives can create ash and sludge when added to an existing oil formulation.  You don’t need that problem.
Starting in 1976 oils began to change to reduce damage to catalytic converters from ZDDP (zinc dialky-dithio-phosphate).
However, ZDDP was critical as an anti-wear ingredient for rubbing parts in engines – such as camshafts, tappets, and bearings.
Newer engines were being built to higher tolerances to reduce blow-by and with rolling components to reduce friction. 
Engine-management systems and fuel injection reduced the risks of gasoline corrupting engine oil (something quite common with carburetors).
Pre-1976 engines needed 1200-1500 ppm of ZDDP
1976-1998 engines saw ZDDP reduced gradually to ~800 ppm
1998 and newer engine oils have about 600 ppm
Contemporary oils from major manufacturers meet all the requirements for classic as well as modern Mercedes-Benz engines, even with low levels of ZDDP (zinc dialky-dithio-phosphate) or ZDTP (zinc di-thio-phosphate)."

[Benz Dr.]

Take a look at  MBCA Documents\Engine Oil Technical Presentation

Bottom-line, there are 2 ways to burn oil,  its either getting past the rings or valve guides.  Both are wrear issues.  If your motor burns oil, tell your friends you have a dual-fuel car, untill you can rebuild the motor.  All the damage is behind you (or in front in the motor) no modifications to the oil at this point will help.  any extra money should be saved for the rebuild or it will be burned along with the oil additives and pass on out the exhaust.  Its a little late to worry about zinc or ZDDP.  Its more likely you have lots of miles with few oil changes and the rings are worn out, the bore is too big at the top, there is chared oil stuck around and behind the rings keeping them from moving properly, and the pistons are worn to where new rings will have too much play in the grooves.   its not pretty, but doing anything to the oil at this point just won't help.
This below is taken directly from the above slides." Do NOT put an after-market ZDDP additive into your crankcase on any engines.
Use ONLY the correct oil for your engine as produced by the oil company.  ZDDP additives can create ash and sludge when added to an existing oil formulation.  You don’t need that problem.
Starting in 1976 oils began to change to reduce damage to catalytic converters from ZDDP (zinc dialky-dithio-phosphate).
However, ZDDP was critical as an anti-wear ingredient for rubbing parts in engines – such as camshafts, tappets, and bearings.
Newer engines were being built to higher tolerances to reduce blow-by and with rolling components to reduce friction.  
Engine-management systems and fuel injection reduced the risks of gasoline corrupting engine oil (something quite common with carburetors).
Pre-1976 engines needed 1200-1500 ppm of ZDDP
1976-1998 engines saw ZDDP reduced gradually to ~800 ppm
1998 and newer engine oils have about 600 ppm
Contemporary oils from major manufacturers meet all the requirements for classic as well as modern Mercedes-Benz engines, even with low levels of ZDDP (zinc dialky-dithio-phosphate) or ZDTP (zinc di-thio-phosphate)."

I disagree with the above statements on several points and agree on several points.

The drop in zinc didn't happen in 1976 - I believe that's when they began to remove lead from gasoline.
Contemporarty oils with low viscosity ratings will not meet the demands of flat tappet engines which is why you needc to add zinc, unless you can find oil that already has it. During engine break in, your engine will expirience a lot of wear and this is why we use a whole bottle of Comp Cams zinc additive for the first 600 miles. My rebuilds have never been better since I went to this program. After break in we use a half bottle between oil changes.
I believe my machinist because he's an expert. It was only after he noticed heavy cam wear and looked into it that he found out that most oil companies removed the anti wear additives from motor oil. Those who want to roll the dice, can of course.

[garymand]

My reply focused on the original question from afisk.  He's not asking about a new rebuild break-in.  He’s way past that.  There are so many threads here on opinions on oils and additives that it is hard to find the one I got the MB Club of America slide show from, but I am sure they did their due diligence.  I did find http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=17699.0  In reference to the additive adequacy contemporary oils.

"After looking at their product guide I would agree that their 15 W 40 is the one to use.  At 1300 PPM zinc additive, you should be fine with that." 

It’s probably a moot point since afisk’s question is: "For some time the engine has burned oil.  I am thinking about using the high mileage oil and also putting in an additive that is supposed to build up around the rings to allow for a better seal.  Do any of you have experience with these additives? If so, what are the downsides to using them and is it a good idea to use them in an older car?  My other question is whether or not to put in the zinc additive when changing the oil. I want to use a 10 W 40 oil and mix it with the zinc. Does the engine need the zinc additive?" 

My point is its too late for zinc or an additive to build up around the rings.  My experience is: save the money for a rebuild.  There are no effective additives for a long-term oil burner.  The rings are probably so worn they have no pressure left to seal.  If they could seal, the gunk deposits have probably turned to carbon behind the rings and filling the grooves to where the rings can’t roll in their grooves to effect a good seal.  Some slight sealing improvement can be found using heavy oil 20 W 50, but it does not protect as well (see the grafts in the slides) at normal operating temperatures, so the wear might even increase.  10-40 is probably the best compromise.  Change it rather than just topping up and just keep burning clean 10-40 until he can pull the motor and rebuild it.

I've driven a few oil burners when that was all I could afford to drive.  I tried 8 or 10 remedy products and none made a worthwhile improvement.  In all cases, it was a waste of money and time reading labels with ridicules claims. 

He asked about additives building up the rings.  Visualize out of round, and non-cylinder surfaces.  Visualize the piston hole, the piston and the rings are all worn a few thousandths all the way around: 0.005 on one side, .005 on the other, the hole is too big by the same.  Worse, the ring has lost the spring shape and can’t push on the walls any more.  And the ring has deformed and worn the groove: the ring is too small and the groove is too big.  The rings are harder than the aluminum piston, but still, the rings are cupped top and bottom.  When you have surfaces that can’t hold the pressures of combustion, oil molecules are not going to help.  Very tiny beads might fill the gaps , but only until they wear the gaps bigger. Additives are not going to fill the gaps.  On top of all this the gunk ahas burned around and behind the pistons cementing the rings in and blocking any oil from coming throught the piston to th oil rings. 

I've even tried flushes and kerosene.  (I got a big chuckle once when a friend of mine had flushed his motor with kerosene.  It would not start, so he had me turn the motor over while he held a plug wire near the dipstick to see if he had spark.  The explosion blew his hat off along with his eye brows).

The flushes only remove oil from the friction areas and accelerate the wear while you run the motor with them in the oil.

My experience is save the money for a rebuild.  There are no effective additives for a long term oil burner. Some slight improvement can be found in heavy oil 20 W 50 but it doesn't protect at normal operating temperatures so the wear might increase.  I've drive oil burrners when that was all I could afford to drive.  I tried 8 or 10 products and none made a worthwhile improvement.  In all it was a waste of money and time.  He asked about the rings.  We've seen plenty of oil burning piston & ring sets, they are often so gunked up that aditives can't get in any way.  I've even tried flushes and kerosene.  (I got a big chuckle once when a friend of mine had flushed his motor with kerosene.  It wouldn't start, so he had me turn the motor over while he held a plug wire near the dipstick.  The explosion blew his ht off along with his eye brows)

[ptooner]

I live in a warmer climate than you, but since you asked about oils I used Shell Rotella  diesel 15w40 for years with good results because it was highly recommended.  I never had any problem with it and my 64 with 110000 miles doesn't use any noticeable amount.  I recently changed to Valvoline VR1 20W50 on the recommendation of some Ferrari owners and I am very happy with it also.  It is normal for these old engines to burn oil and if you aren't using more than say one quart every 1000 miles I wouldn't be at all concerned.  In fact, I don't think I'd worry if it was considerably more than that. 

Gerry

[georgem]

Aaron,

For you, I think the discussion about which oil is best is academic. If your engine is using EXCESSIVE amounts of oil, then its a oneway street to a recon. Nothing is going to to stop that.
The question for you is....what is excessive and can you live with it.
Oil is  comparatively cheap and for the annual kms  that most of our cars do it is a minor expense. Eventually you will get to the end of the road where the clunking noises from the engine or the smoke screen from the exhaust will tell you .....its time. Until then, keep a container of good quality oil in the garage, check the oil regularly and start saving for the eventual rebuild - and enjoy the drive

[wwheeler]

Gerry,

I had used 20w-50 VR1 but have decided to switch to 10W-40. There was an article in the Star about oiling the engine when it is cold. Basically implied that 20W is too thick except for racing engines that have more clearance. Also had an expert oil guy here in Texas tell me the same thing. Being in Texas, overheating is always on my mind. If your engine's cooling is good and the bearing clearances are good, the 40 rating should be more than good enough.     

[ptooner]

I could live with 10Ow40, but didn't know they made it in VR1.  No place around here carries it.  On a possibly related note, I use straight 50w  (Aeroshell W100) in my airplane in this same hot climate. 

Gerry

[WRe]

Hi,
I read in a documentation of Liqui Moly (German manufacturer of motor oils and additives) that the penetration time (until all lubrication points are reached)  during cold start (0°C) varies between 3 and 48 seconds with the different oil viscosities: 0W-xx 3 sec., 5W-xx 8 sec., 10W-xx 28 sec., 15W-xx 48 sec. . 20W-xx was not tested, must be nearly 1 min, I assume. So take your time before you start.
...WRe
I use LM 15W-40 conventional/mineral motor oil.

[jameshoward]

Fine, but who are not this community drives their cars at below zero temperatures? (I'm sure some do, but wager that the majority do not).

I had an interesting chat (sort of) with a shell oil rep at a rally meeting of late. I mentioned that I felt that ATF in the manual box of my car was quite thin. He agreed, saying that the original spec by MB was for cars that were modern at that time, and hence which were driven year 'round. His point in conversation was that - in his view - many owners of classic cars held on too strongly (and wrongly) to the manufacturers original oil specs some 30 - 40 years after the cars were built. In his view, many folk should consider how they use the car these days, and the lubricate it accordingly. So,a 20w50 oil might be great for folk in warmer climes or places where the cars are driven only in the warmer months. Similarly, a heavier weight engine oil may be better for a manual box that is only used in warm weather than ATF. His view. As an oil ninja, that is.

Interesting to some, perhaps.

JH

[Benz Dr.]

ATF is the correct lubricant for a MB trans and is also used in many other applications across a wide range machinery.  This stuff may be thin but it has some amazing properties. There are times where you want things to slip and where you will want things to grab ( think syncro rings ) and ATF will do that for you.


I'm not sure where I found this info but it was MB literature. It stated that gear lube will harden the gear facings and can cause them to chip which I have seen a few times over the years. Since there's needle bearings in a 113 standard trans, you would be advised to use ATF like youe are supposed to. I use synthetic BTW which is even thinner than regular ATF and 've had zero problems for the past 30 years of driving old MB cars.

[jameshoward]

I don't doubt what you say at all, Dan. Far from it. It was just an interesting (ish) discussion about how some might perceive a slavish adherence to original specs to be less than ideal given the sort of usage our cars tend to get nowadays. So, not driven year round, more carefully looked after, over-serviced, etc. His experience was simply that more suitable (modern) alternatives exist for classic car owners that better suit the use of the cars, and which may seem to contradict the original manufacturer specs, and he wasn't just talking about synthetic vs mineral engine oil. 

The Shell stand had free beer, which is probably why we ended up chatting for so long, plus it was a motor cross rally meeting, in which I have little interest. Although some classic 911's were amazing, if only to hear how much it costs to rally one of those for a year. 

[wwheeler]

Maybe the question of engine oil weight boils down to which are you most afraid of given your typical ambient temperature AND how hard you push the engine:
1) excessive wear on a cold engine from the oil being too thick to be distributed properly
2) excessive wear from oil breakdown (viscosity loss) at high temperatures (rally car etc.)

I'll never drive my engine hard enough or in extreme heat to approach oil break down. So in my case, I worry more about wear on a cold engine eventhough I would rarely start the engine below 40*F. That is why I am switching to a 10w-40 which is more middle of the road. I felt the 20w-50 is just too far to the heavy side. Many factors to consider including how well the oil clings to the wear surfaces after the engine is shut off.

More to consider.....

[Benz Dr.]

On a viscosity chart you might be surprised to find that 20W50 and 80W90 are about the same and both are like glue when frozen. They seperated the numbers so you would be able to tell the difference between gear lube and engine oil.

Unless you rev the snot out of a cold engine, I really don't think you are going to see the kind wear oil adverts warn you about. Any engine, running at idle, won't have any real load on it. I'd say 5 - 10 seconds would be tops for anything around here down to about 15F. Below that it will take longer but odds are you would likely have to try a couple of times to get the engine to fire so most of the oil pressure would already be present. Besides, who would be trying to drive their car at that point anyway?  Sam Pagoda perhaps?

[jameshoward]

That's my point entirely. Few if any pagoda drivers start frozen cars. Which means perhaps we can fret about which grade of oil is definitively THE best, regardless of operating temperature.  Should have that cracked by mid-morning, I'm sure.

I probably wouldn't use 20w50 if my car didn't try to return so much of its engines capacity back to mother nature. But it seems to like it, and doesn't burn any of the stuff. I use a UK brand sold by an auto parts company called Halfords. No idea who makes it despite my best efforts, and although it claims to have a high zinc content, they won't disclose the stats. It also contains 'seal conditioners,' which have stemmed my occasional leaks. It's okay for a few thousand miles a year on a pretty worn engine. I let her warm up before driving and the car spends its down time in a heated, humidity controlled hangar, so she's somewhat spoilt.

[Theclaw]

I use Brad Penn in my 84 Porsche and from the specs,  http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx it has the zddp required by the MB.  I just received a '67 260SL and need to put some fresh oil in it (my dad can't recall the last time he changed it!).  I was wondering if the group has some experience with Brad Penn.

Jeff