Author Topic: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion  (Read 23423 times)

mdsalemi

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Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« on: July 22, 2004, 07:05:41 »
Hello Gents,

Lately there has been some talk of the progressive rate springs, and anti sway bars--tools used to improve the handling of the 113.  As I am always trying to achieve something better, these topics are interesting to me, and I think to quite a few of us.

I drove Tom Sargeant's car last year and would agree that it handled very well, and much improved over my own.  Tom attributed this to the John Olsen progressive rate springs.  However, I understand from Gernold at SL Tech in Maine--one of our "gurus"--that perhaps these have been removed from Tom's car recently.  I hestitate myself to make such an investment, because not only are the springs costly at over $1,000 for the set, but the installation and realignment necessary (to do it correctly) is a very labor intensive process which could easily double the cost.  What if, then, you are not satisfied with this $2,000 investment?

Recently there has been some talk of this "Cox" 30MM anti-sway bar, but I have yet to have anybody reply to me on just where this is currently available, if at all.  Tom Sargeant cryptically indicated he got it from "an enthusiast" and left it at that.  Is Cox a company still in business and do they still make this bar?

There is a body of evidence out there that says you can achieve some measurable, if not significant improvements in handling (applies to any car, not just the 113) by changing the thickness of the anti-sway bar.  For those that are interested in learning more about this, I'd strongly suggest visiting the following website and drilling down into all the information they provide on anti-sway bars:  http://www.tlssteel.com

One thing you will find out at this site is that small increases in bar thickness provide significant increases in stiffness.  The formulae they provide indicates that the difference in stiffness is equal to the cube (4th power) of the difference in bar thickness.  Cutting to the chase here, a 1 MM increase in bar thickness yields a 24% increase in stiffness.

Gernold informs me that the stock anti-sway bar on the 230SL is 22MM; and the stock anti-sway bar on the 280SL is 18MM.  Therefore, one should be able to achieve a significant increase in handling (read that TLS Steel information to get a better handle on what this means) on their 280SL by simply installing a 230SL anti-sway bar.  Certainly this is easier and considerably less costly then a spring change, and can even be done by the average shade tree mechanic rather then the expertise, tools and probably assistance required to change all 4 springs and then do a 4-wheel re-alignment and ride-height adjustment.

I'm probably willing to make that change myself from the 18 to 22MM bars, and perhaps even go to a thicker custom bar if the 22MM bar provides a better feel.  Apparently, TLS will custom fabricate a bar if you send them a pattern; i.e. another anti-sway bar.

Does anybody have any experience with this kind of stuff, or have anything to add?

Caveats, I'm sure are the following:  first, why was the bar reduced in thickness in the first place, particularly with the increased weight of the 280's and the increased body roll that the weight provides?  If anything, based on my limited knowledge, one would think that they would have gone to a larger, not smaller bar! Second, can it be that easy?  Can we really increase the handling feel of our cars with a simple anti-sway bar change?


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
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Malc

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2004, 07:40:33 »
As I stage rally I fiddle about with suspension quite abit so I with throw in afew comments from cheap to steep and of course depending on what you are trying to do, race, rally or just drive around:

I have put things in the order that I would approach the problem....

1) Tyres, a nightmare, but buy good ones, Perelli, Michelin etc etc
2) Rebushing. Replace all the OE suspension bushes with "polybush" or equivalent.
3) Shock absorbers, lots out there, some good most bad. Bilstien accepted as the best from the rallying mob.
4) Springs, lowering the car by even 10mm will make a differnce. Progressive rate springs "out of fashion" these days. Constant rate but different poundage rates are cheap, labour costs high unless you fit them yourself
5) Changing roll bars works. Can dramatically alter handling characteristics not always to the good.
6) Changing castor and camber. Difficult to do especially if normally fixed. Lots of experimentation required. If you have a private test track that helps!!!

In my honest opinion you have to realise that your dealing with the cutting edge of technology from over 40 years ago. Unless you have a bottomless wallet your bog standard Ford Focus is going to handle better than a 230. Remember MB and other companies spend years tuning suspension to be the best for the market they are targeting.
I look at it this way... I drive my 62 MGA and 74 BMW2002Tii with  totaly different attitudes  8)  than when I drive my 1990 saab 900 16v to work everyday :o  And the stage rallying Lancia, well I want to make it go sideways at 90mph, but that another story :D

Malc

George Davis

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2004, 09:40:47 »
At the risk of going against the grain of this topic, I'm coming in on the side of sticking with the stock suspension.  But, I highly advocate bringing said stock suspension up to snuff by replacing all the old rubber parts that are at the end of their service life.  At the least: front subframe mounts, differential mount, torque arm bushings and cross arm bushings.  Doing these will tighten things noticably.  Once that's been done, the car (IMO) will handle pretty decently, even for the old technology that it is.

Regarding sway bars, the general concept (and I haven't read the site that Michael refered to yet) is that by increasing the stiffness at the front, you increase the car's tendency to understeer.  My 280 SL already understeers a ton, I wouldn't want to increase that.  I also wouldn't want to add a sway bar to the rear.  That would have the effect of increasing the tendency to oversteer, which IMO is not a good idea in a car with a swing-axle type rear suspension.  MB went to a lot of trouble to tame the swing-axle's tendency to snap oversteer and did a good job of it.  I'm sure someone who really knows what they're doing can improve the handling of the car by playing with springs and bars, but I think that really should be reserved for competition.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the progressive rate springs.  But with all suspension upgrades, there are trade-offs.  Stiffer springs may make the car handle better, but also increase ride harshness.  Whether any individual likes the trade-off or not is extremely subjective.  I like the way the car rides on stock springs, but understand that many will like it better with a little more stiffness.  You really have to ask yourself what you're trying to accomplish.  If you never get the tires howling, you're not using all of the suspension's capability anyway, so why do you need more?  On the other hand, if you like the feel of a more stiffly sprung car or want to reduce body roll, then stiffer springs or sway bar may be for you.

Last, I autocrossed my (allegedly soggy handling) 280 SL and beat everyone there, including a 320 SLK and C36 AMG.  Hard to believe, but here's the difference: I road-raced for a few years, the other drivers had never raced.  Not that I'm a great driver (I freely admit that Moss and Hill are better :D ), but understanding the concept of late apexing, and simply having some experience tossing a car around was a definite advantage.  If you want to get the most out of your Pagoda, or any car for that matter, start with the most critical element: the driver.  Spend the $2000 on a good competition driving school.  You'll have huge fun and come away a much better driver than before.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

Albert-230SL

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2004, 11:29:35 »
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis

At the risk of going against the grain of this topic, I'm coming in on the side of sticking with the stock suspension.  But, I highly advocate bringing said stock suspension up to snuff by replacing all the old rubber parts that are at the end of their service life.  At the least: front subframe mounts, differential mount, torque arm bushings and cross arm bushings.  Doing these will tighten things noticably.  Once that's been done, the car (IMO) will handle pretty decently, even for the old technology that it is.

... If you want to get the most out of your Pagoda, or any car for that matter, start with the most critical element: the driver.  Spend the $2000 on a good competition driving school.  You'll have huge fun and come away a much better driver than before.


Agree 100% with George, also about the racing driving school: it's a great investment!

Mr. Rudolf Uhlenhaut (father of the legendaries "Silver Arrows" of G.P., and of many MB chassis, as the Fintail W111 -winner of the Monte-Carlo Rally  ;) - and the Pagoda) did a very well job in the W113. When it was introduced, the Pagoda was considered one of the best cars of the world, in handling. There was a nice test between a 230 SL and a Ferrari 250 GT in the Montreux race track, and the handling of the Pagoda compensated the very big difference in engine power. The Ferrari only won by 0,2 sec.

According to John Olson (we talked about the progressive springs and Pagoda handling here: http://index.php?topic=584 ), a thicker front swaybar increases understeer... which means that a thinner front swaybar increases oversteer. The Pagoda went from 22 to 20 mm in the front swaybar during the 250 SL period. It seems this was in order to soften the rear axle reactions. If its limit is lower, the reactions at the limit are also softer: Less effective or quick, but easier to drive.

If you want to improve something, I would not go far from the original 230 SL settings... a thicker swaybar could change too much the character of the car, and I trust in Mr. Uhlenhaut... to equal a Ferrari 250 GT V12 is enough for me!  :) ... If everything (suspension, tyres, steering, mounts, bushings...) is in standard order, its handling should be very good.

Regards

Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 11:33:59 by Albert-230SL »

Kenneth Gear

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2004, 12:02:31 »
The previous over of my 280SL installed the Olson progressive rate suspension as well as a 30mm front sway bar.  The handling of the car is AMAZING!  I don't find it to be a harsh ride at all and around corners it hugs the roads the a go cart.

I'm in VA, if anyone in the area would like to take her for a test drive let me know.
Ken G
1971 280 SL Silver/red

Tom

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2004, 17:08:51 »
Michael,

Ok, here are the details for the 30mm swaybar:

Andrew Cox
info@coxracingroup.com
800-321-9771

Andrew does not list these on his site at this time (techno glitch).  But call Andrew and he can set you up.  

Andrew also mentioned how well the car performs with his rear trailing arm conical bushings installed.  I have not installed these but plan to install them next week.

Finally, Andrew offers nylon/kevlar/stainless steel brake lines.  Apparently they really help with the brakes.  I ordered these as well.

I still have my progressive springs but continue to struggle a bit with the camber at the rear.  I am going to have Gernold see if he can get this right when I ship him my car this fall.

The combination of the 30mm sway bar, springs and Nardi wheel make the car handle in a very tight fashion.  I am planning on coming to StarFest and would be happy to let you drive the car and see for yourself.

Best,

Tom


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1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
_____________________________________________
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic

hauser

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2004, 21:09:19 »
This would make for an intresting set up. I also believe would make for a tremendous change in stability.

Download Attachment: 280with 15inch wheels.jpg
27.63 KB

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

n/a

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2004, 08:44:41 »
My car was in a very bad accident many years ago and the front end was rebuilt with many sedan suspension parts. I believe I have a sedan sway bar. I'd love to get the correct 280SL sway bar. Anyone of you who have replaced yours want to get rid of the original? I'd be interested. Thanks.

Shawn Rock
Philly, PA USA
1968 280 SL 4 speed

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2004, 20:01:57 »
Michael:
In reguard to your the topic of modifing the suspension on the W113 SL. I have invested in John Olson's progressive rate springs and new stock rear trailing arm bushing and other required bushing to tighten up the suspension. I managed to install the rear springs & the compensator spring with new 24 MM pads for the rear pads and waiting for 25 MM pads for the front. I also installed new Bilstein shocks atall four corners.
It is too early to tell how this ajustment will work out. Ihave talked with john Olson about front sway bar bushing and he said that the stock bushing were quite good and did not recommend any modification. As far as sway bars for the front John also told me that the sway bar from a 6.3. was adaptable as well
When I get the front spring and pads and alignment and swaybar bushing in I will give a post on handling improvments and try and get a G-tech meter to measure some handling &performance runs. Oh the tires on my car are michelin 185 TR 14 rain force. I might up grade to a HR or V rated tire to get full use of the suspension modifications.


Bob Geco
1968 280SL





rwmastel

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2004, 07:54:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by hauser

This would make for an intresting set up. I also believe would make for a tremendous change in stability.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.


I've wondered if 15" alloys were available for the W113.  I assume these are off a W108, W114 or W123?  Anyone know the part number?

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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mdsalemi

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2004, 08:16:20 »
The 15" wheels sound interesting; with the right profile tires they would have the dual effect of lowering the car and reducing body roll caused by flexy sidewalls on our tires--both things reducing body roll that the sway bar attempts to keep in check.  My guess is that it would be a pronounced improvement.  Speedometer would most certainly be somewhat inaccurate for what that's worth...

On a similar issue, a re-reading of some Pagoda history reminded me that Rudi Uhlenhaut designed the 113 suspension around the Continental RA60 semi-radial tire which was then replaced with the similar Firestone Phoenix.  Apparently he had rejected the full radial Michelin X as being too flexible in the sidewalls=body roll.

Coker Tire http://www.cokertire.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17493&cat=&page=1 apparently is re-making this Phoenix tire complete with the sidewall "curb feeler" which would make it a true replacement for the NLA tires of yesteryear...at $167 each they are not cheap, but many modern tires will exceed that in cost anyway so perhaps it is a fair price to pay for originality in handling.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
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hauser

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2004, 08:59:54 »
There is a website that deals in the MB 600. This guys business is in restoring these beautiful cars. One of his projects was to create a two door coupe version. The Mercedes factory actually produced only one of these coups based on the 600. It was here on this site that I first saw the bundt style wheel that appears to be 15" wheel. I have tried to contact them a couple times with no response. Here's their site www.mbgrand600.com  :D

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

Tom

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2004, 09:37:29 »
Michael,

The Coker reproduction of the Phoenix tire does not have the curb feeler/rub stripe.  I own a set of these tires, which are for sale if anyone is interested.

Best,

Tom


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1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
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JimVillers

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2004, 19:19:43 »
After reading this thread, I felt that I needed to reply.  At some point I will begin working on the suspension of my 230SL.  For the last couple of years, I have been working on my 190SL.

I installed a larger sway bar (25mm verses 18mm) and that is the first modification that I would recommend as it significantly improves the cornering lean.  With the cost of the springs from John, I bought or had made, three different specifications of progressive springs.

Progressive springs reduce the amount of brake dive and also contribute to reducing corner lean.  With the correct specifications, they are a wonderful improvement.  I also might add, that while lowering the ride height of the car will improve cornering; the rear should not normally be lowered because of the characteristics of the swing axle.  If you can't lower the rear, it doesn't look correct to lower the front (unless you are in high school).

I acquired a set of John's 280SL front progressive springs from Tom a couple of years ago.  They appear to be very stiff springs and not very progressive.  The springs that I currently have in my 190SL have the stock spring rate when the car is at normal ride height and then the spring rate increases by 200 lb/in as the spring is compressed.  With proper specifications, progressive springs are wonderful.

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
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hauser

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2004, 20:00:47 »
Jim it is a pleasure to have you join in. We have never met but we have a mutual friend, in Topsfield Mass. Jim I one of my posts I described the aluminum wheels on my 280sl. If I'm not mistaken, I believe you have these on your 190sl. This would also be a plus in reducing unsprung weight further enhansing the suspension.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

Tom

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2004, 21:34:09 »
Hauser,

I have the aluminum rims that allow the use of the traditional hubcaps and can attest to the improved handling and improved off-the-line performance that the lighter rims provide.  This is a little discussed improvement that all pagoda owners should explore.

Best,

Tom


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1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
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1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic

hauser

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2004, 22:11:33 »
Yes they are a great improvement. :D  I was surprised that I did not find any discussion on this. Once the hubcaps are on no one can tell the difference. 8)

I have posted the #'s of this wheel at the "Photos From Hauser" in the gallery section.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

JimVillers

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2004, 09:09:27 »
Hauser .... No, I still have the steel wheels on my 230SL.  I do have a couple of sets of the aluminum disk wheels that can be used with the full wheel hubcap but since my 230SL has the small hubcaps, I still use the steel wheels.  I also have a set of 280SL full disk hubcaps but they just don't look correct on a 230SL.  Some of my 190SL friends have installed clips on the aluminum disk wheels for the small hub caps but the holes around the circumference also doesn't really look correct in my eyes.

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

hauser

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2004, 10:58:01 »
So sorry Jim, I was thinking about "Pea Soup."  For some reason I thought that Robby Ackerman's car was yours.

I completely agree that the round holes would look strange if left uncovered.

Jim you've got a wealth of information to offer. Don't be a stranger here.  :D

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2004, 11:00:06 by hauser »

JimVillers

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2004, 12:31:16 »
Hauser .... For you and others, here is a picture of the aluminum wheels. http://www.190slgroup.com/tech/images/rob_car2.jpg

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2004, 11:13:55 »
Does anyone have Andrew Cox's internet web address? I have his e-mail and phone. would like to read his web page.

Thank You
Bob Geco

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2004, 14:39:16 »
http://www.coxracingroup.com/

Rodd
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Bob G ✝︎

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2004, 16:23:55 »
Can anyone give me some input on the subsitution of a 280SL sway bar for a 3.5. sedan sway bar 24MM. What need to be done for it to fit how stiff will the front end be and does this create a neutral feel going into a turn vis the stock feeling. I also wanted some feed back on Cox racing bushing are they worth the time to put in? or will I be driving a kitnee jaring machine.

Bob Geco

Cees Klumper

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2004, 16:35:08 »
Hi Bob. I put in most of the Cox polyurethane front and rear bushings, but I decided to leave the large 'hockey-puck' discs on the rear trailing arms stock, since putting the poly's in there was too much vibration for me to handle. Then, subsequently, I discovered one of my original steel rims is bent somewhat - maybe once I get around to replacing it, I will try the hockeypucks again. As for the remainder of the poly bushings, I must admit I did not notice that much of a difference, but then the rubber bushings they replaced were all still fairly new. I like the handling of my car a lot as it is now.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
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n/a

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Re: Anti Sway Bars, Handling Etc. for Discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2004, 10:49:53 »
Hello Mdsalemi,
 Thanks for your posts to my nuts topic, I've sent a new post to it
have a look.
Pagoda Red

red kelly