Search by engine number

[mnahon]

I'm new to this group, but I've read many of the postings and articles and they're very informative.

I'm trying to track down the genealogy of my 280SL, which I already know to be 'interesting'. Rather than tracking things down by VIN, which has led me to a dead end, I'd like to track it by engine number.

The engine block stamping is 130-983-12-015115. I know that identifies it as a 280SL block, but I'm a bit puzzled by the 15115 part. Others with 1970 and 71 cars have posted engine numbers up to about 11000. Can anyone with a very late model 280SL tell me if they have an engine number beyond 15000?

I'm also curious to know whether there exists a listing of engines, saying what serial numbers were made in what year, similar to what exists for chassis numbers. I've already been told by the Mercedes classic center that they can't search their database by engine number. Failing the existence of this database like this, how could I get access to the original database of datacards, so I could search it manually for my engine number?

Ideally, I'd like to get the datacard of the car with my engine number. The data card for my chassis number does not have this engine number; and other items are not matching either.

Thanks for any insight or suggestions you might have...

[Flyair]

My Pagoda is one of the latest, as she left the production line in February 1971 and by VIN it is 72nd car before the last made. So I think it meets the criteria you set.

My engine has the number ending by 16159, which is well beyond the 15000 threshold you mentioned.

What you should check is whether your data card's VIN is correct with the VIN numbers that are embossed in at least two if nor three places (one on the plaque in the engine bay, one on a small metal insert on the left A-pillar). Also, the last three digits from the VIN should be well visible in specific places that you can find listed either in our Technical Manual or on the motorinvestments.com webpage

If the data card doesn't match any of those, then -I guess- you may own an real "composite car"

  

[mnahon]

Hi Flyair. Well, that's good news for me and it means that my engine is likely from a very late model car.

But I actually think I have the whole car; not just the engine. That is, I'm not sure it's really a 'composite' car. I'm basing this on the fact that my car has many of the design features of a very late model car, including headrests; white plastic coolant expansion tank; flat headlight lens (it's a Euro car); heated rear window; hazard lights; orange rear turn signals. I realize these could all have been added after the fact, but I think it's unlikely.

On paper, my car is a 68. Its VIN is also that of a 68. But the datacard I got for this VIN is definitely not my car (based on original color, body stamping numbers, etc).

The car was imported to Canada in 1984. One idea someone mentioned to me as to what might be the purpose of 'changing' the identity of a late model car to one from 68 is the emission regulations. Apparently, it would have been much easier to import a 68 car than (say) a 71 car. So swapping VINs might be a way around this.

Anyhow, this is the reason why I'm searching for the car that originally had my engine, to see if its datacard matches my color and body stampings.

You mentioned that I should look at the VIN stamping on the top right front wheelwell. The number there matches my VIN, but it looks like it's been changed. The plate near the left front shock is missing.

Essentially, what I need is access to the datacard database so that I can manually search it for my engine number. Does anyone know if that's possible?

[66andBlue]

..... You mentioned that I should look at the VIN stamping on the top right front wheelwell. The number there matches my VIN, but it looks like it's been changed. The plate near the left front shock is missing.
Essentially, what I need is access to the datacard database so that I can manually search it for my engine number. Does anyone know if that's possible?

Nothing is impossible but I doubt that Mercedes will allow you to inspect their data base. And why should they?
The data cards for each car are extremely reliable and if the card for your car does not match what you see then you might consider accepting that something has been changed.
I would be extremely worried if the stamped VIN on the frame member was visibly changed.
Was your car "totalled", or any records that it had been stolen before you got it?  can you post a picture similar to this one?

[mnahon]

Yes, of course, I accept something has been changed. I'm trying to figure out just what was changed.

I can't post the picture you mention because there is a coolant hose in the way and I can't get a clear shot. I would have to dismantle things. I can make it out by eye and the numbers match the VIN plate, but in my opinion, they don't look original (the last 6 digits are more crooked than the preceding digits).

Based on the data card, everything on the car would have had to be changed---engine, hood, tonneau cover, hardtop, transmission plate (all the items with stampings). I realize that's possible. An alternative explanation is that only the VIN number was changed.

I don't think the car was totalled; I think I would be able to see signs of that. Stolen is possible, but that wouldn't be in the records.

I've owned the car for close to 20 years. I think the guy I bought it from, who had it for about 10 years, was trustworthy. I'm much less sure of what happened before that.

[Benz Dr.]

If the VIN  on the frame rail and the VIN on the plate match you can be fairly sure that it's correct. If it doesn't match the number on your ownership you have a bit of a problem there. Since no one actually checks that here ( where I live ) it's only a problem when someone does.

What numbers have been changed? The last six numbers are a problem while the rest are not so much in my opinion. The last numbers are the numeric build sequence while 113 044 12 tell you it's a 280SL with auto trans. However, all numbers need to match your ownership.

[mnahon]

I don't have problems with ownership issues: my ownership certificate, firewall VIN plate, and frame rail all have matching VIN number.

However, the datacard I received for this serial number shows many numbers that don't match (engine, chassis no (body stampings)). And I'm quite certain it's a car built in late 70's (due to engine number and various other design features of the car), rather than one built in early 68 on the datacard.

[66andBlue]

Now I am more confused than before.
You write that the VIN on firewall plate and the one on the frame rail are identical. I assume that VIN also matches the one on the data card.
But then you write that the "chassis no (body stampings)" do not match the data card VIN. What do you mean with "chassis no"?

[mnahon]

Sorry for being unclear. I meant body number, not chassis number. The body number is the one on the body/paint number plate (missing on my car); and part of which is stamped on the hood, tonneau, hardtop and transmission plate.
(see http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/BodyandPaintNumberPlate
 and http://www.motoringinvestments.com/280SL_BuyersGuide.htm )

On my car, the body number on those stampings does not match the datacard; though the stampings are consistent among each other (i.e. they all belong to the same body).

I'll try to summarize the situation, that I confused through sloppiness:

- VIN on firewall, and on frame rail, and on my ownership certificate are all the same. This is the VIN for which I got the datacard

- Engine number on datacard does not match what's in the car; Body number on datacard does not match body stampings

- design details of the car, as well as engine number indicate a car built in very late 1970. Frame rail numbers look suspicious

- Conjecture: car built in late 1970 given the identity of an early 68 by swapping firewall plates and changing frame rail number. Possibly to ease importation into north america

- Goal: to get the datacard of the car that had my engine number; to see if it matches body stampings, color, etc

[66andBlue]

OK, now I understand your goals, although I still suspect you are barking up the wrong tree. 
1. I predict that you will not be able to match your existing engine number with a particular VIN. But you might try by calling Tom Hanson at the Classic Center in Irvine and ask whether he has the means to make a cross-reference.
2. The fact that the last 6 numbers on the frame rail look a bit different than the others is in my opinion not an indication that they were re-stamped. The preceding numbers (car type and transmission) could have been stamped at a different location by a different person before the car was finished on the assembly line and received its last "birth mark". I would carefully inspect the background under these last 6 numbers and look for previous ones or check whether the surface is recessed deeper (indicating removal of material) than the surface of the preceding numbers.
3. Since the body numbers are identical on the car, are you looking at the correct number on the data card? It is the number in the field titled "Aufbau-Nr", not the one in the field "Prod.-Nr."! is there any number on the data card that matches those on the car?

[mnahon]

Hi 66andBlue; thanks for these suggestions.

I was indeed talking about the Aufbau-Nr on the datacard. Its last digits are not the same as the stampings. I looked at all the other numbers on the datacard and none are similar either.

Your explanation for the difference in the way those last six digits are stamped into the frame rail is definitely plausible.

I agree that I could be wrong on suspecting that the VIN number has been changed. If I'm wrong, then there's a lot of other things that I'd need to explain, including:
- mismatch between paint code on datacard and my original paint color
- mismatch between interior color code on datacard and color of my interior
- mismatch between Aufblau-Nr on datacard and stampings on my car
- mismatch between engine number on datacard and my engine number
- early 1968 production date on datacard and late 1970 design features on my car

While all these could have explanations, the simpler explanation is that my VIN is wrong. Of course, I don't believe I could ever correct that. But it doesn't stop me from wanting to know a bit more about this strange beast of mine. It doesn't bother me too much to have ended up with this strange situation as I don't intend to try to sell the car.

[GGR]

From all what you indicate indeed it looks like your car is a late production one and was given the identity of a 68 sometime in its life. Make import easier to dodge emissions regulations may be one explanation (but then what happened to the car giving its identity?), though a stolen car given the identity of a totaled one could be another. If this happened in Europe, sending the car to America would reduce the risk for the car to be traced or recognized.

Tom Hanson at the Classic center may indeed be able to find the original VIN out of the engine number. But if that VIN is reported stolen, I wonder what is the thing to do.

[66andBlue]

Hello GGR
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Because late 280SL cost more people try to "upgrade" earlier ones to later ones, but they are still the same.
Changing a stamped VIN without leaving a trace is very difficult and rarely done by amateur thieves. 30 years ago when the PO apparently got the car it wasn't that valuable to attract a professional thief.
"Upgrading" is a quite common among the W111 cars. Within the last 9 months I have seen three 280SE that were changed to look like 280SE-3.5: engines changed to the 8-cylinder version and addition of 3.5 trim packages, only the stamped VIN gave away their true age.
Sometimes owners do it to show of a more expensive car - vanity is a powerful incentive - and sometimes shady sellers do it to make more money.
That is my theory.

[mnahon]

GGR, your thinking parallels closely what I've been thinking. As far as 'what happened to the car giving its identity', if the VINs were swapped, that car would have benefitted by acquiring the identity of a more recent model.

A stolen car is another possibility that I've thought of. I agree with 66andBlue that 30 years ago, when this would have been done, changing the VIN on a stolen car, including the frame rail stamping, seems like more trouble than the car would have been worth at that time.

It's really hard to know which of these scenarios are more likely to be correct, without more information.

I did talk to Tom Hanson and he was puzzled by what I told him, but confirmed that the database can't be searched by engine number. He said he'd be really surprised if the VIN had been changed. He also said the datacards reside in Germany; they don't have a copy of the entire set in California; and certainly not ones from European cars.

I spent a bit of time on the registry and looked at VIN/engine number pairs. I thought I might be able to use that to narrow down the VIN of the car that would have had my engine number. However, it turns out that the engine numbers did not increase with the same regular sequence as the VINs...there's a fair bit of 'noise'. As a result, the best I can do is bracket the VIN to a range of about 1000. And if those datacards would have to be searched manually, it would take some time.

So at this point, I'm pretty much at a dead end. Apart from showing up at the Center in Fellbach and pleading for access to look through a thousand datacards, I don't see what else I could do.

[Paul & Dolly]

Hi GGR,

I believe there are numbers on other parts of the car - Front suspension, Diff, Gear Box, Hard Top, Bonnet (Hood), Glove Box, facia Trim..... that can also be checked against the VIN Number Data Card information you have available; this would not help you in your Engine Number/VIN search, but if the VIN on your car had been changed it is extremely unlikely that all these other Numbers would also have been changed.

Interesting topic, but maybe this is one of those questions to which it may be better to not ask ! - Just enjoy the car..

Good luck

Paul