Author Topic: Hagerty Valuation  (Read 9978 times)

TR

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Hagerty Valuation
« on: October 23, 2013, 01:14:58 »
Out of curiosity I looked at Hagerty's valuation tool for our cars.  As an example, for a 1970 280 SL condition 1 car they now have it listed at $122,000, plus these value adders:  Hardtop +$4,500; 4-speed manual +10%; 5-speed manual +17%; air conditioning +15%.  The basic car value of $122,000, without the adders, was as of August 2013.  Just 4 months earlier, April 2013, they had it listed as $112,000.  Here's the link if anyone is interested: http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=875188

To see the value-add numbers click on "Vehicle Value Details".

I was surprised by a $10,000 increase in a 4-month period.  Then I looked at a '56 Gullwing (condition 1) and saw it was up $200,000 over the same 4-month period.

Probably others have already seen this data since it is now approximately 2 months old.  Sorry if I'm repeating old news here.

Theclaw

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Re: Hagerty updates W113 values
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 01:43:16 »
How reliable have you found Hagerty Values to be?


TR

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Re: Hagerty updates W113 values
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 03:03:28 »
I'm not quite sure I understand the meaning of your question Jeff.  But I can tell you what prompted me to check Hagerty's valuation tool for our cars.  And that was having received a few days earlier the latest release of the SL Market Letter, which shows a solid year over year increase in W113 prices.  In fact it was a few thousand dollars (USD) higher than what the Hagerty website indicates.  In addition, the Hagerty number is below what I've recently heard from one of North America's top restorers of W113s. 

Does that help?

66andBlue

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Re: Hagerty updates W113 values
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 04:37:10 »
It is an interesting valuation but I wonder how many "Condition #1" 280SL cars were actually sold to provide a reliable data base for such valuations:
"Condition #1 vehicles are the best in the world. The visual image is of the best car, in the right colors, driving onto the lawn at the finest concours. Perfectly clean, the car has been groomed down to the tire treads. Painted and chromed surfaces are mirror-like. Dust and dirt are banned, and materials used are correct and superbly fitted. The one word description for #1 cars is "concours."
Of course, restoring a car to condition #1 costs a lot more than $122K as we know from a local 250SL that won 1st prize at the recent "Legends of the Autobahn" Concours at Pebble Beach.
Then there is:
#2 cars could win a local or regional show. They can be former #1 cars that have been driven or have aged. Seasoned observers will have to look closely for flaws, but will be able to find some not seen by the general public. The paint, chrome, glass and interior will all appear as excellent. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine compartment. The vehicle will drive as a new car of its era would. The one word description for #2 cars is "excellent."

Again where is the data base for sold cars in that category? Does Hagerty inspect sold cars cars to assure that they conform to their own criteria?  And why does a hardtop justify an addendum? These cars are almost never sold without a hard top.

My theory is - and I may be dead wrong - that Hagerty is basing these numbers on appraisals that they receive from their own customers. How comparable are appraisers in different parts of the country?
In any case it is nice to know that our cars are appreciated and do appreciate in value.  :)
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Garry

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Re: Hagerty updates W113 values
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 07:33:58 »
I have to totally agree with Alfred's comments.  I guess I have seen maybe 3-500 Pagodas over the years and I would think that only 3-4 at most would fit in to Category 1. Only one I know of in Australia fitted that category in the past and that is the ex Bob Possels car when it was just completed but it is driven around in Oz now so would rate a 2.
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G
2005 MB A200
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Electric
2024 Volvo EX30 Electric

Theclaw

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Re: Hagerty updates W113 values
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 10:50:40 »
Tom, Alfred and Garry,

I think you answered my question. I was not familiar with Hagerty's valued until this board and wanted to get a sense how accurate their data was. I think together, the three of you answered my question. Thanks very much.

Jeff

KevinC

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Re: Hagerty updates W113 values
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 23:07:52 »
I don't know if I would buy in to the "appraiser's" notion. I tend to follow NADA guides primarily due to the fact they are what the dealer's that I know go by for their own needs. These little orange books come out every month and recap actual SALES figures for the previous 30 days. It seems to me that their site is updated monthly as well.

I took this paragraph below from their site for the sake of discussion...

"We cannot speak on behalf of other guide valuation companies; however, our editors review over one million sales transactions per month to help support our valuation numbers. These transactions come from many sources and depict actual sales both retail and wholesale. Because of how our values are created and the volume of data we review, NADAguides values are used across all segments including consumers, dealers, lenders, government tax authorities and insurance companies. All values are only a guide and prices will always be above or below the guide values for vehicles. The overall condition, mileage, history and local supply and demand contribute to the asking price of each vehicle."

I took a look just now at both NADA's and Hagerty's figures for a 1969 280SL.  If you take NADA's "Average Retail" ($53,790) and compare it to Hagerty's average ($54,622) that's too close to be a coincidence IMHO; so I would tend to think that they are both based on sales, not estimates.

On the higher end cars, I would think that placing a value would be more difficult. My dealer buddy tells me that NADA really doesn't speak to #1 cars since for all intents and purposes, these cars aren't driven. It may be just that a small handful of cars are driving these figures but this said, there obviously are Pagodas selling for over $100k.

All in all, these guides are only valuation tools and meant to be guidelines.


One additional thought... it so happens that for our own amusement, my brother and I have been attending some of the big collector car auctions every year since about 2006. Its apparent that "muscle car" prices have certainly cooled but not so much European cars and exotics if you will. Seven years ago $750K was a strong price for a Gullwing but now the number is probably at least $1.25M. So with that type of increase, it only stands to reason that the next generation cars (ours) should be increasing as well. I'd be willing to bet that if the world economy grows, nice Pagoda's will be $250k five years from now. Lets face it, nice 190SL's are selling at that level now and they cant get out of their own way!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 22:58:41 by KevinC »

garymand

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Re: Hagerty updates W113 values
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 18:31:34 »
I like the way you think.  I never understood the high valuation for the 190sl while the w113's langished for decades.
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, R350, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

71Beige280SL

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Hagerty Valuation
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 15:40:50 »
I thought I would share this with the Group. I recently ran a valuation on the Hagerty website. See attached report. Big spike in 280SL values starting in Dec 2012...particularly in the high-end, Condition 1 cars (see graph on page 2).
- 1971 280SL Beige/Cognac Leather
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- 2024 AMG C43 Sedan

Rothko

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Re: Hagerty Valuation
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2014, 16:39:00 »
Interesting that there was a big drop in 2010.  I would have thought a drop in prices would have occurred earlier, like in 2008-9 as a result of the US recession.

thelews

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Re: Hagerty Valuation
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2014, 17:50:19 »
Hagerty tends to be on the high side of market evaluators.  Good for insurance premiums.  The trends are what is relevant to me.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

KevinC

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Re: Hagerty Valuation
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2014, 20:09:44 »
At least two #1 cars sold in Scottsdale last week...a white 280SL at Gooding & Company ($143,000 including buyers premium) and a brown 280SL at RM ($165,000 inc premium).  If Brian Peters happened to sell one of the "Holy Grails" last month then there you go. My boss always used to say "twice is a co-incidence and three times is a trend"

paulr

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Re: Hagerty Valuation
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 17:55:26 »
very good cars, not show Queens, but very sorted drivers can fetch over £100,000 in the UK. Some people are offering more than the asking price to get the car....

mgandrew

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Re: Hagerty Valuation
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2014, 11:55:50 »
I have been watching values for some time. It seems that maybe 5 years ago an excellent car was in the 50s and most were in the 30s. I thought my rusty 280 was worth more like 10.  Now it seems that nice cars are approaching 80 and average cars are in the 50s.

A friend of mine operates a body shop. I asked him for an appraisal of the 250SL that I just bought. He asked who I was insured with. He very firmly indicated that I need to make a change. His point was that when he repairs a car insured by Hagarty, they just say "fix it". No squabble.