Becker/blaupunkt speaker issues

[Louiehenry]

Hey y'all! My audio set up is as follows
Becker-Europa II radio
Speaker behind it came from the factory
The car was my mothers first anniversary present from my dad, and be liked to go all out in terms of options so the speakers other than that make me wonder.
I have the fairly common blaupunkt blue magic forward facing speakers in the back wall, the ones you can see though from the trunk.
Then in the place of the usual kick panel speakers that protrude, my car has two more blue magic on each side of the car, diagonally stacked
The only issue is that only the speaker behind the radio makes sound
It's got 9000 miles on it, I drive it as my daily, but it's been absolutely babied for 40 years, kept in a fantastic garage with a team of people looking over it and the rest of my pops collection.
These speakers are awesome from what I hear, and I want to hear them pushing out music as I cruise through the country, and hear the notes roll out of the open top!! Any ideas as to what might be the matter? A bud of mine said they might have disconnected them for storage, if so, where would the connection point be?

Also, I have an automatically raising and lowering antenna, not installed but it shouldn't take me long

[mmizesko]

LouieHenry,

I've got the same Europa II setup.  It has a separate amp behind the glovebox that puts out a whopping 7w per side. If you say that only the speaker "behind" the radio works, that tells me your long 9" monaural speaker under the top grill, right?  If that is connected to one of the two outputs on the amp, I don't know how you would be getting any signal to the other speakers.  Do you have a separate amp in the trunk to feed the other speakers?  With the setup you have, I would think you would have to, and send the Left and right signals back to the amp and splitter, and back out to the 4 speakers.  My guess is that someone tried to put in all these speakers without realizing how limited the Becker amp was.

BTW, I just have the becker 4" kick panels for authenticity, with a 3.5mm jack in the aux plug for mp3's.  I am exploring a bluetooth external speaker that sits on the back shelf to use with my phone when I have the top down. 

Promise me you won't get a subwoofer in this beautiful car, or I'll have to hate you.

Mike

[hkollan]

Louiehenry,

These speakers are awesome from what I hear, and I want to hear them pushing out music as I cruise through the country, and hear the notes roll out of the open top!! Any ideas as to what might be the matter? A bud of mine said they might have disconnected them for storage, if so, where would the connection point be?

Probably the Originalitygod cast a spell on those non original speakers to silence them, so that
whoever mistreated this low miles pagoda by sawing wholes in the back wall, were never to enjoy the fruits
 of butchering this fine automobile. 

Some detailed  pictures of this cars engine compartment and other details would be nice.

Hans

[Louiehenry]

I'll take the glovebox out and look today! And I'll get pictures of the electronics and everything! As far as I know, there's no other amp, do I need one? If so, what's the best brand to match with our old lovelys? I've got my 84 land cruiser out for winter now so I've got time, as I mentioned, it was my mums anniversary present, and I really want to get it looking and sounding like the day it rolled of the line, but moreover, I want it to be like it was when dad got it for her. Thanks so much!

[Louiehenry]

I thought about the possibility of them getting in over their head, but the car was sent to the dealership for the audio, and they recorded and signed off on it.
No I would never get a sub in that! It's a moving piece of art my friend, I'd never ruin it like that!

[mmizesko]

Louie Henry,

Be careful with the glovebox.  You'll have to make sure the spring hinge on the left doesn't bend or break.  And there is a wire connector to the glovebox light at the top left.

I've attached a schematic for the becker amp location.  The back of the amp has the two stereo leads and i think has the antenna motor trigger on it.  that may be on the back of the radio though.  The most you will get are leads for 2 speakers, and 7 watts per channel doesn't work well with modern speakers.  (that's the main reason why people stick to the original kick panel 4 " beckers).  If you are going to use a separate amp, you will have to mount it in the trunk, and run both Left and right speaker lead sets under the carpet, and also run power back to the trunk as well off a decent fuse.  I wouldn't try to use the trunk light power feed.  As for which amp, I haven't a clue.  I'm not sure how you would control it either.

Hope this helps.  You may want to fill the speaker holes on the back plate by welding matching steel, grinding and painting.  If you ever sell it, folks will frown upon the frankenbenzing.  I passed on one 280 in Detroit a couple of years back because of the holes cut in the body.  And while you're at it, make sure you have the right hose clamps.

Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH

[Louiehenry]

So, I took the car down to my family's dealership, and I went through the service reports and they said that a few years ago, my older brother brough it in requestingthat they upgrade the speakers, the removed the amp, hot wire, and everything Speakers themselves. My brother never followed through on it and the amp was sold and the wires disappeared. So now I have to get a new amp and Hotwire, any recomendations? Price isn't an issue if it means getting better parts for my baby

[scoot]

Becker-Europa II radio etc

So, I took the car down to my family's dealership, and I went through the service reports and they said that a few years ago, my older brother brough it in requestingthat they upgrade the speakers, the removed the amp, hot wire, and everything Speakers themselves. My brother never followed through on it and the amp was sold and the wires disappeared. So now I have to get a new amp and Hotwire, any recomendations? Price isn't an issue if it means getting better parts for my baby

OK, none of this is adding up into in sort of cohesive story.  First of all, take a picture of the face of your radio and post it in this thread.  Second, what YEAR is your car, and was this the original radio to the car?  If you don't know then get your "Data Card" from the Classic Center and see what audio system came with the car, if any.

I'm assuming that you have a Pagoda or unknown year, and from what you have said, the front center speaker works and you have some sort of Becker pinstripe radio.  And it sounds like you also have 4 Blaupunkt speakers in the various corners of the interior and that no sound comes out of any of them.

As for your radio, I generally think of a Europa II as really being a Europa II Stereo.  Is that what it says on the front of the radio? (not that it proves anything).   Really need a picture of your radio for starters.

You mention the removal of an amplifier -- that is very confusing.   An amplifier that was connected to what?  If your Becker radio is one that uses a separate amplifier then if you remove the amplifier you won't get any sound out of the center speaker.  Yet you do.  So either you have a Becker radio that doesn't use a separate amplifier and you have the center speaker wired to that radio (which would all be perfectly logical) or ??

The answers to your questions are really easy, but you need to provide more information.   Year.  Photograph.   Depending on the photograph, perhaps more information will be needed.

cheers
Scott

[mmizesko]

Hi Louie Henry,

Saw the pic of your baby.  Looks like a 70 or 71, because you have the full amber lenses on your headlights for turn signals, and the new alloy wheels.  Do you have the rear window defogger on your hardtop with a round switch behind the ashtray on your center console?  Scoot was right about the becker bezel.  Some just said Europa II (like mine) and some said Europa II Stereo on the bezel. I don't believe they ever had speaker outputs from the radio itself, only from the detached amplifier box (which is shown vertically in the drawing I posted, mounted on the inside firewall).  The prior efforts at putting in a separate, more powerful amp might have been aborted and removed, but I don't think they would get rid of the original amp on the firewall.  They probably just connected the original 9" mono speaker connector the the Left output on the amp.

One concern that I do have is that why would they have a stereo becker installed in the car without the two kick panel speakers.  If you have a Europa instead of a Europa II, then the only speaker outputs come directly from the radio to the 9" speaker on your dash, and it is mono, not stereo.  There is a chance that they disabled the kick panel speakers when they put the new speakers in.

I guess I repeat my original hypothesis.  you have a 70 or a 71 280SL, with a Europa II stereo and a separate 7w per channel amp mounted vertically on the inside firewall behind the glove box.  You'll need to trace the new speaker wires (I bet they go to the trunk, or under the parcel shelf behind the seats), and see if there is a "homerun" power feed back to the trunk or under the parcel shelf from the main fuse box.  You can then mount a new amp in the trunk or under the parcel shelf, run the Left and right speaker leads from the original amp to the trunk, input them into the new amp, and then let the amp feed the new speakers.

Oh, and BTW, once you do this, you can never play any hip hop or rap music in the car.

Mike

[KevinC]

Scott,

Some of the info is here in another post...

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19398.0

LH,

Would it be safe to say that it seems that you have an original radio/center speaker system in place and operating PLUS four potentially after-market Blaupunkt speakers cut in but not connected to the radio?

I don't know if there is a "right way" to set this up as it doesn't sound like MB had ever offered a system like this in the first place. Still...I would GUESS that your options are quite a few. These could be several:

1) If you are interested in "originality" over sound, remove the external speakers and recover the areas where the holes were cut. To many of us old-timers cutting a 9,000 mile car anywhere is at the least a knock to its originality and at the most a modest value killer.

2) If you prefer sound over originality, consider having an independent after-market auto sound shop connect up what you have and add a separate amp some where. (PLEASE...no more cutting, though!). If that's the case, you may even want to improve on the receiver itself by going with a newer model direct from Becker.  http://beckerautosound.com/


3) If you are "in the middle", consider perhaps covering the rear speakers and use your kick panel speakers to enhance your listening experience.

Keep in mind, at 17 you may be the guardian of what many would consider as the "Holy Grail" of 113's. You have known history and unbelievably low original mileage. I dare say it could easily be a one hundred thousand dollar car and then some. Any decisions you make on what you do next with the car should take that into account. Putting it another way, my car has 140,000 miles on it, is probably worth about $40k and I treat it like it just left the showroom!  


Kevin

[KevinC]

These may help you too...

[Louiehenry]

I could never play it in any car, much less these! Classic rock, soft country and oldies is all I listen to!

[mmizesko]

Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship!  (The last line of Casablanca!)

Mike

[Louiehenry]

I would hope so!

[mmizesko]

Louie,

here is an idea...  every other summer, there is a congregation here in Blacklick Ohio, (Columbus) called Pagoda University Blacklick.  About 50 pagodas come in from all over the country to have seminars in technical aspects of the car.  Joe Alexander hosts the event, and Joe is one of about 5 guys in North America who are the premier master mechanics on pre computer benzes.  Its really cool to see 300SL gullwings and a steady stream of pagodas in Joe's shop.  There are other great technicians who can do the work, but I don't know of any in Little Rock.

Since you have one of the "holy grails" in the pagoda world, you may want to consider shipping the car to Joe in the late spring (i've heard that shipping across country costs less than $1k), let him work it over and do the restoration (since you don't need body work) and get the car in premier condition, and then have the car "premiere" at Pagoda University.

Not sure how much you want to do yourself, but you have a Stradivarius there, and you should consider working with the best in the business to preserve value to you and the sub-culture.

Regards,

Mike

[Garry]

I second that Mike,

LH has a very special car there that needs to be done properly to retain its originality and value and not worked on by just any mechanic to ensure it is correct.

LH, given the very low milage, you may want to think very carefully how you act as custodian of the vehicle.

Garry

[Louiehenry]

My father saw things your way, and in order to preserve his cars to the utmost perfection, he made an extremely short list of people that could work on his car. I do know that that is the speaker configuration that came from Mercedes, he had a meticulously maintained file cabinet on everything having to do with his cars.
As it is winter and Arkansas is beginning to experience our lovely winter weather, I'm going to start using my 86 isuzu trooper as my daily, so I am making a list of things I have questions about, want restored, etc
Also, it is a Becker-Europa cassette.

[Peter van Es]

For more detail on this… please check: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/RadioAndAntenna and all the underlying pages. The pages quoted by KevinC are on there, as is much more information.

[KevinC]

LH, some investigating may tell youi "if came from Mercedes" options were either factory equipped or dealer installed. A factory item would add to the value...some dealer work might take away. In the early 80's our local dealer offered plastic non MB hubcaps that from a distance looked like the alloy rims! Clearly interesting but certainly not added value.

[Louiehenry]

I have pictures!
These are the speakers, radio, and back of the speakers

[mmizesko]

Hey Louie,

Now I know why we're all confused.  You've got a Becker Europa 599 or 582 AM FM cassette that was produced in the late 1970s for the 450SL 107 body cars, not the 113's.  All those german schematics are irrelevant, and the radio is not correct for the vehicle. 

The correct radio for the 71 pagoda is a "pinstripe" becker am/fm stereo.  The europa was monaural, and the europa II was stereo (used in the 70 and 71). you could upgrade the unit to the mexico (with cassette and auto seek), or the Grand Prix.  The ones shown in the tech manual pages can help   http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/RadioAndAntenna.

So it sounds like you've got some choices to make.  As for me, I replaced my mono Europa with a Europa II stereo.  I found it on this site, but they are on ebay all the time.  They were also used in the Porsche's of the era, so you should be able to find one.  Then honestly, it will look correct, and if you boost the power with a trunk amplifier, you can get your speakers to work.  I think you would be happy with such a solution, the more you get into this "hobby".  You do have to dump the 107 radio.  Just saying.....

Mike

[mmizesko]

This one looks to be in good shape:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-w107-Mercedes-Benz-Becker-Europa-II-MU-Stereo-Radio-Tuner-Amp-Literature-/350800850846?pt=Car_Audio_Video&hash=item51ad5c2f9e

[Louiehenry]

But I ran the vin and it never showed that it was replaced
That's odd

[Louiehenry]

I know my dad knew someone over at MB headquarters, I may try to find out if there's anyone over there who can find the original documents and send them here so I can have the whole thing brought back to its former glory.
Any ideas on the blaupunkt? If they're not original, I may either sell them or put them in my Isuzu

[mmizesko]

Louie,

You have reached the point of dilemma of our favorite w113 pagoda benz'. The audio systems in 1971 in mercedes, ferraris, and porsches kind of sucked.  So to be original and correct, you have to tolerate that.  The stereo units used two 4" speakers in the front kick panels in front of the door.  By 1970, the metal car frame where the speakers go had circles and screw holes cut in.  Prior to that, mounting was a ****.  The holes can only acommodate smallish speakers, so today's larger magnets won't fit because of the depth of the fender.

With 7watts per channel, the amps in these early stereos were weak, but matched well with the early speakers.  Today, only Becker audio in New Jersey sells the only ones that work well.  Otherwise, the newer speakers which are made for 50w per channel only work if the volume on the stereo is turned up all the way, which results in distortion.  The good news is that with the old amp and 4" speakers the audio is fine, unless driving with the top down at highway speeds.  It's almost good when the hardtop is on.  And you can buy an ipod 3.5mm heqdphone type jack input that plus into the back of the radio (through a DIN7 jack that was designed for rare 8 track tape decks) which is actually great.

I wrestled with this, and I chose originality.  I love music, and do regret not having full sound in the car at all speeds, but i wouldn't do anything different at this point.  I will try a bluetooth wireless speaker and put on my rear package shelf when I drive and see how that works.  I'm told they are great.

Since you already have holes and speakers, you have options. 

1.  If you wanted to be totally pedigree and original, you could repair the holes in your trunk.  Whoever did them made a mess of them, so you'd have to have an experienced metal worker weld sheet metal back in there.  Then get a Europa II unit (pinstripe) with amp and ipod adapter and 4"speakers and fix the kick panels and rear carpet.

2.  Or, leave the rear and front speakers, get a correct Europa II (pinstripe) with the amp and run power and wires back to the trunk amp you had/have to feed the speakers.  Many respected members have this setup, (but I'll bet they don't have 9,000 miles on their cars).  If you ever get to the point of showing the car, you can always do the restoration work when you are older and have more cash flow.

The website can teach you more about your options.  Also try: http://www.beckerautosound.com/Speaker/BMW-Classic%20Euro%20speakers.html

I was dead serious about the master technician route to get the car in shape.  The people who worked on this car 40 years ago are most likely dead (apologies to those still alive).  Dealerships won't touch these things either, and often use "available" parts, instead of correct ones.

Best of luck, and make us proud.  You do have a potential museum quality example of our passion.

Mike