Engine repair

[Wayne]

Well here we go with an update,it looks like the block is finished and I'll post a picture for others to comment..it seems it's been worked on before and the inserts are badly fitted compromising the water distribution around both the head area and engine itself

I compared both a 69 and 71 head and there are differences,specifically the water slot lengths between each barrel,se below

I hope you can see what's mean by the damage which has been done during past repairs

Thanks

[Wayne]

See pictures attached of block beyond repair
Slots between barrels appear to have been altered and inserts appear to  allow water to breach the varnish parts of the block
Having compared two blocks from 69 and 71 they do appear different,especially the size of slot between the barrels

[Wayne]

Just to add a little confusion I've had lengthy discussion with Metric Motors today and they were in possession of the various pictures.

They studied the pictures and said the block is standard factory fit,with inserts and slots as standard,they advised this was a short production run of an upgrade and many engine shops will never have seen this before,

So my dilemma,
Do I just import a short block and sell the bits I have left over
Do I take the block for a second opinion to another uk engine shop
Do I accept the alternative block on offer and scrap my old one
Do I request they skim the head and test it fully before writing it off

If I post this under another section of this site am I likely to get more response to the block images.

Maybe I'm in danger of having  a little knowledge which is dangerous,however I just don't want to scrap something which potentially could be usable

[Garry]

I think the answer is fairly obvious that you should take it to a second facility and get another opinion. It is the initial cheapest option at this point and could save you a bucket load.  Can I suggest you use Colin Fern (stickandruddrrman) who has a good reputation around here and several recommendations from other members.

[Wayne]

Gary,
Many thanks for your reply.
I have to say each time following a conversation with Martin the actual mechanic working on my car I come away feeling more comfortable,he seems knowledgable and very helpful. However I'm a little lost after checking an email from Tony at Crewe stating the following,

 "The block has had inserts fitted for the head bolts but these inserts are intruding into the waterways"

These inserts are factory fitted I'm told so I think I'm right to question the situation

Again I was told today that the inserts are unserviceable and are what is causing the problem of water into the barrels

Dear oh dear round in circles but thanks for the replies

[tel76]

I have a cylinder block just like yours, I do know that in the 70s we fitted a new block to this car, inside the slots are metal inserts, I have tried to find out why MB fitted these inserts but have not been successful, JA17  has seen them before but says he removed them, the good doctor has not seen them before, only Al Leffering has seen them and he says they were a modification and should be left in situ, when I eventually re-build the engine I will leave them installed. Your inserts are not fitted someone must have removed them in the past.
I have some pictures available that I will ask Alfred to post you can then compare them.
Your man at Crewe will not have any experience of these I feel sure.
Eric.

[Wayne]

Eric,
Many thanks for your reply,this is starting to make me feel better for asking more questions

Any pictures to compare would be really useful as I can send them on to the shop

Crewe have now said the barrels are shot so the block surface and inserts will have no bearing on the outcome.i did ask them if the block or barrels had been skimmed before but no answer,they just said they cannot re sleeve them.

Seems all a bit final to me

Anyway many thanks and I'll wait for the pictures

Wayne

[tel76]

Hello Wayne,
When you talk about barrels I assume you mean the cylinder bore, are they saying it has been bored to maximum, then if so it can be sleeved, but a different block would be a better solution.
With regard to the slots they are just like the ones in my block so that should not be a problem.
As a matter of interest this modified block requires longer head bolts, I have just purchased a set from MB.
You must insist that they inform you what dimensions the cylinder bores are, they can easily tell you because the information that will help you is stamped on the pistons.
The pictures have been sent to Alfred and will appear later this afternoon. {Done!}
How much are they asking for another block?

[Wayne]

Hi Eric
Thanks for the detailed reply
I have no measurements whatsoever,just simply the block is finished due to the cylinder bore being shot,I'm advised they cannot be re sleeved due to how thin the  metal is between the cylinder bores. They tell me sleeving  is not an option as they can't enlarge enough to fit a piston.
I can't get an answer on the price of the block,I'm still waiting,they say they have to machine it to see if it's any  good first,however,they tell me the pistons have been ordered from the USA,seems very odd when they don't even know if the block can be used or it can be machined to an adequate standard
Now I'm lost again ha ha

[tel76]

What do they mean -!  the bore is shot !  I think you will have to speak with the MD to get the answers you require.
Are you a member of the Mercedes Benz Club ?  There is a company in Manchester that gets good revues,( it may be time to go to plan B ) there name is Gott or Gratt, I feel sure one of our UK members here will know the company I am referring to.

[Wayne]

Eric many thanks for the info and pictures,really useful and are the same as mine apart from the slots being blocked or filled with something?
This I believe us how the head left MB factory yet Crewe tell me otherwise
I will ask for the measurements anyway and see how we go. I may purchase a long block now and keep the old engine and have it inspected elsewhere and rebuilt if possible,if not then it has many spare parts
I know the place in manchester and will speak with them,I have spoken before and sent email but their communication wasn't that good which is why I went to Crewe.
Looking at this forum and others it appears metric in the usa are highly regarded,it's not a cheap option but fully recon unit arrives ready to drop in at about £7000 uk
I'm going to have a think and see what they say re the block and will report back with more info
Many thanks
W

[jameshoward]

Define "unit". There may well be cheaper options available from equally good engine builders in Europe. If you need a hand talking to someone in Germany who I can personally recommend, PM me and I'll see if I can help you with your engine.

Sending something to the US from the UK or Europe is not necessary to achieve a good result. 

[Wayne]

James
Thanks for the reply
To all who have sent private messages so far many thanks, it appears what I've heard via private messages is pretty accurate

Can someone advise how long it would take a specialist mechanic to do the following

1/ Remove the engine from the car (280 sl)
 
2 / Strip the engine for a rebuild following removal from the car

The gearbox is already removed from the car and on a bench

1/ How many hours to strip, clean, rebuild and fit new friction plates and gaskets and filters 

Anyone provide an estimate to complete the gearbox work ?

I now have the quotes for used items which would be an addition to the remanufacture.
 
1/  Cylinder head £800
2/  Block £1,200

(A nice round £2,000)

[Wayne]

That's a good idea as it's now gone off the original topic

Now more focused on the engine issue I hope my experience and the picture evidence will help others for years to come

W

[Wayne]

Here's the hours taken to carry out work so far by Crewe

Finally got some figures relating to my invoice after numerous requests ,will provide more detail once my updated invoice has been broken down further

This does seem excessive considering an experienced mechanic is stripping the car or am I missing something

Remove engine from car   12 hours

Strip  the removed engine to bare block 15.5 hours

Strip head 2 hours

Total 29.5 hours

Now I had other work carried out whilst the car has been standing,see below.

Diff oil change 1 hour

Check beaks and free up callipers 8.5 hours

Total 9.5 hours

So the total of my first invoice adds up miraculously to 1 working week,circa 39 hours.

Now I'm no mechanic but I'm struggling to understand the maths in terms of labour for the work involved.basically I'm in need of someone to give me ball park hours to carry out the above

Considering this is the first invoice after numerous requests and it was rushed out I'm having to question it,however,I don't wish to question something which may well be accurate

Any help appreciated

Thanks

[stickandrudderman]

Remove engine from car: 6 hours.
Strip engine: It depends on what standard you're looking for. To just strip for overhaul is nowhere near the same as to strip for "as new" aesthetically but assuming just strip for overhaul then about 4 hours assuming no dramas.
Strip head: 1 hour.
Diff oil change: 0.4 hours
Check brakes and free up calipers: Difficult to say but to change all four calipers (assuming this is a 280) and hoses should take no more than four hours.

Naturally these are times for a professional who knows what he is doing.

Now, having said that, if you came to me and wanted an engine built to the highest possible standard, including balancing and aesthetics, I would be quoting you 10k + VAT.
This would include all new gears, bearings, chain, guides, seals, pump overhaul, checked/replaced injectors, engine & gearbox mounts, front sub-frame mounts and a 123 ignition. (A better than new engine).

[ja17]

Hello Wayne,

The early and late blocks are different. In addition the latest version factory replacement block is also a bit different. So you can find three variations. The last two are virtually the same with some minor improvements in the latest. The latest printing of the later BBB covers a lot of variations, changes and improvements in these M130  engines. You are correct about the head bolts being longer in the latest version. This is also covered in the latest BBB.

As far as the metal strip inserts in the slots of the block of new units coming from the factory, we have not yet produced a good explanation of their purpose. I tend to believe they are for re-enforcing the thin walls during shipping or machining at the factory. I would guess they are meant to be removed. Other experienced and knowledgeable on the site think they should stay in place?  Looks to me like they could move and partially block a water passage after the engine warms. We  need some definite factory documentation on these. Anyone?  

Original factory piston rings are very hard. Cylinders usually wear before the piston rings are spent. Cylinders in the M130 engine can be bored to clean up wear and restore the factory tolerances when the oversize pistons and rings are installed.  The cylinders can be bored in .5mm increments or a total 1.5mm on these M130 blocks. This results in three possible over-sizes. Often times cylinder wear will require skipping the first oversize and going straight to the second over-size (1.0mm) in order to clean up the wear in the cylinders. Just replacing the piston rings on standard pistons is usually not successful on these engines. You end up with perfectly round piston rings in worn "egg-shaped" cylinders. The result is high oil consumption. Boring the cylinders and using new oversize piston assemblies is usually required for good long-lasting results.

Mercedes specs do not allow much cylinder wear before they specify boring and oversize piston assemblies. Follow the book this is critical. Also the piston to cylinder clearance specification is much tighter in these engines than many others manufacturers. Machine shops will tend to make the clearance looser. They should be directed to use the factory specification for piston to cylinder clearance. The steel bands cast into the squirts of the original equipment alluminum pistons, allows for a tighter fit, but it makes the pistons expensive to manufacture.

Working with a high quality, experienced machine shop with state of the art equipment and processes, is critical to success. Supply them with all the critical factory documentation and tolerances so no guess work is involved.  

Also do not take one machine shops analysis of the situation as absolute. Other machine shops may have more advanced equipment, processes and capabilities. Do some research and get more opinions.

[Wayne]

Thanks for your detailed reply,this is really helpful as it confirms my thoughts re the hours spent on labour
It is a very experienced mechanic working on the car and the second set of hours charged are on top of engine removal.

It's simply an engine sat on a bench being stripped to the bare block ready for remanufacture......15.5 hours ?

I have requested a detailed breakdown of the hours but it's strange it works to just about a working week

So my next move......I'm not quite sure,I would like a nice new engine but sadly yours is just too expensive for me,I'm not needing concourse,just an engine which will run and do the job. On top of the £10,000 I have VAT and all the ancillaries,oh and a couple of grand for gearbox rebuild if it's needed.....oh and the other bits to get it MOT standard so it can be registered.

Do I want to import from metrics in the USA,I'm not sure,however,I'm sure you have made good reference to them in a past post. For a long block I work the cost to about £7,000, fully imported. Plus ancillaries and labour to rebuild and get running....maybe £2,000.

I've yet to find a uk firm who can supply a new recon motor,saying that I'll have to get a second opinion on my own head and block when I get it all back,I guess in boxes of bits......

One of the big problems is I'm based manchester  and I've no garage,just a couple of parking spaces which are taken up,I guess I best start looking for a lock up tonight

In fair I'm looking for the most cost effective solution,not cheap but value for money,if I get that I'll move forward
Thanks

[Wayne]

Ja many thanks for the info

Having discussed this with Metric in the USA who advise me they only do Mercedes engines and nothing else they say this is indeed a factory fit,I quote their words

Metric USA

Per the attached example photos – the inserts installed into the block are in fact original from the factory during production.
While rare and just a short run – we have seen enough of them in our short 34 years in business doing only Mercedes-Benz engines to have given them a nick-name: “280 insert block” and we treat them differently as they require a different length head bolt configuration etc.  Some insert blocks had the slots filled (per attached example photo) and some did not (as in the case of your block – or they had been removed).

Crewe advised me this is not factory fit and that the slots are aftermarket and had breach the waterways......so that' shows the power of the forum it's demonstrated that they don't always know what they are talking about

I'll try and work out how to get the pics on the site for future reference

W

[Wayne]

Picture as supplied by Metric of the USA

Bare block inserts and fillers

It would be interesting to see if the fillers are required or not

W

[ja17]

Yes, the thread inserts are used in the third version requiring the longer head bolts. This feature is described in the late BBB with all the supplementary information. They were meant as a strengthening feature for the head bolt threads. In my own personal experience, I remember removing a brand new factory short block from its wooden crate back in 1974 for installation in a 280SL. The unit came direct from Mercedes.  I still have the nicely made crate with MB Logo etc stenciled  on the outside. Anyway this replacement block had all the latest changes made to the M130 engine. These included the thread inserts, the larger diameter oil supply line to the IP, newest main bearing configuration, etc. It also had the strips,"fillers" in the water jacket, which we removed before installation.  My question is about the metal strips " fillers" in the water jacket. We would like to see some factory documentation on weather they are meant to remain in the block or should be removed. Everyone has an opinion, we would like to see some factual documentation on these. Earlier engine blocks did not have these strips at all. My guess would be that they were temporarily used for shipping or machining?

[Wayne]

Ja,
 I'm going for a second opinion but I'm confused because the repair shop may not know if the inserts should be in or out,from what you say they should be out but confirmation would be useful
It will be interesting if I find a repair shop which can repair my block,especially if they can supply the fillers or advise of their needs
I do hope thus thread will help others further down the line
All replies are appreciated
Thanks
W

[ja17]

Hello Wayne,

Possibly Metrics may have some information on these inserts. Looks to me that they may have just been a temporary insert to re-enforce the thin walls of the block during the machining and shipping operations. Looks like they partially block the critical water jacket if left in place. Some actual factory information would be best.

[tel76]

I wonder if Achim would be able to get this info: from his German friends.

[hkollan]

Joe,

One would expect Mercedes to have clear instruction for removal of the waterjacket inserts come with
 their crated short blocks,  if that really was their intention.
My engine guy (very experienced pagoda engine rebuilder) had an explanation for why he believes that they should be left in place.
Left in there they reinforce the edges of the wider waterjackets avoiding the edges to crack with heat expansion stress. (he has seen this happen rendering the engine block useless)
Leaving sufficient waterflow since the waterjackets go quite deep down, and no water is blocked from entering
 the head since there is no water passage in the gasket/head there. Kind of made sense to me. 
Then again these are opinions only, no factory documentation found.

Hans