Engine repair

[ja17]

Sounds logical, but it would be nice to know for sure, since all the earlier blocks did not have these. I figure there are some instructions or an  explanation somewhere. These things are often covered in a service bulletin or a supplement to factory workshop manual. In my 45 of experience I have never seen the breakage at this area. The metal strips do partially block the round cooing passages going up into the head on each end.  Just would like to know for sure.

[JamesL]

My two-penneth..

280 heads are getting harder and harder to come by so £800 for a reconditioned one is a good price. I paid about that for one this time last year and then paid for it to be stripped/cleaned etc prior to rebuild. It was hard to find then

There's little worse than feeling that you're not trusting what you're being told/billed for. My sympathies.

[Wayne]

James thanks for the info

I'm going to post the invoice when I've sorted it so anyone can make comment if they wish

Just adding some bits up,1 hours labour for discussing the job with mechanic and 1 hours labour for packing the parts up....seems like many hours to strip an engine out and break it down, many more than any other quote from this and other forums. Its almost funny but they don't keep a timesheet or up to date log of time spent on the car, its all errr what have we done and when and eeerrrr how much should we charge.CLOWNS

The head and block may appear cheap but they could potentially be subsidised by labour in other area...I'm not sure anyone would ever do that but who knows!!!!!

Sadly its the trust issue which eats away, when you get 3 prices for the same job over one week by the same person you worry. When you get told your engine is knackered and has none standard inserts which have been added and are intruding into the waterways you worry, then you get told this is a standard engine which demonstrates the shop doesn't understand the engine.......forgive me but if I'm to part with 10k or whatever I want specific information on which to base a decision.

I'm currently looking at two options
import from Metrics I the USA and be done, they get excellent feedback on the forum from everyone who bought from them
install a 280 SE motor and move on, I'm looking at a donor car which I can butcher for lots of other bits too.

Now I need to find storage and transport until I award the work to a local garage dealing in Mercs

[ja17]

Hello Wayne,

Very difficult situation. There are " book times"  published on all these procedures. They are meant to aid the estimate of costs and labor for these jobs.  Of coarse these  "book times" are meant to be met by factory trained, experienced technicians, in ideal working conditions, with all the special tools, and on new vehicles.  

Naturally no one wants to pay an inexperienced mechanic to learn while you're paying. Finding good experienced shops with reasonable rates is getting harder to find as time goes on.  The unfamiliar and inexperienced may quote many more hours to be safely protected from the unknown. Only you can determine what your situation is for sure.  Good communication is the key.

[stickandrudderman]

Some people think I'm expensive but as each day goes buy I think that given that I know what I'm doing AND I'm honest/ethical then perhaps I'm too cheap!
I certainly do charge a premium because I have been working exclusively on Mercedes cars for 35 years now and have seen thousands of stories like this one but my premium is because I only expect to give the absolute best service.
Youy pays your money you takes your choice.

[Wayne]

Hi Jo,
The  labor rates for various jobs was exactly what I was looking for,sadly to no avail.
It's funny you mention communication because that's what I wanted so I could be up yo date with both costs and progress,in terms of my visit to the shop I was made to feel I wasn't wanted and in terms of progress and invoicing it was like drawing blood from a stone.  I did post before Xmas when I had doubts and they came to fruition recently,hence my stopping work.
I've been looking on various sites for a doner car and noticed the SL shop have a project LHD at a start cost of £15000. Be interesting to see the end cost on this

Sticky rudder
I'm sure your work is good but not everyone has that as a budget and wants work to your high standard,I have other work on the car as it needs to be taken to mot standard before I can even register it,I reckon I could add another 5,000 on top of your £10,000 plus £2,000 VAT. I can spend as much as is needed but then that's not sensible,there has to be value, you never know I maybe posting one fine motor on here sometime I the near future.......got to keep positive hey

[stickandrudderman]

The people with the biggest marketing budgets are not necessarily what they seem................

[Wayne]

I've spent hours on thus forum over the last month quite a bit if time over the last few day-searching alternative engines from se280

I am correct in thinking I can use a W108 engine only as a replacement,1968 to 72 ,is this just the 280 se engine or are there other versions of the 280 .?

I'm actually thinking of a donor car and have seen couple which are still runners so can be tested before purchase

As the doner car has lots of other bits under the bonnet it May cut my overall spend down

Sticky rudder
 the most expensive is not always the best or what it seems too,it's what's appropriate to your personal needs

[Cees Klumper]

The W108 engine should be a straight swap, only the tachometer gear drive and the aluminum engine support arms on either side need to be switched over. If you can source an engine from a good running parts car for a reasonable price that is what I would do if I were you.

[66andBlue]

... or are there other versions of the 280 .?

Did you read this here: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/EngineNumber
Your car needs a M130-type engine but among those not all are suitable. Those with a carburetor are obviously not.

[mdsalemi]

When choosing a restorer way back when (1999-2000) I knew nothing about Mercedes-Benz or this SL I inherited. I went about to learn. Quickly the list of restorers came down to a short list. A couple were way far out there in terms of cost--Hatch & Sons in Massachusetts, and Paul Russell, too. I concentrated on the second tier. One person trying to "sell" me on the job provided a long detailed list of what he prepared for a restoration candidate. Included was nearly a full page on the starter motor.

So, let's talk communication. Each and every task on restoring the starter motor was detailed; decision points were noted (repair, refurbish, refinish, replace) and the total time was just south of 4 hours. Total estimated cost was nearly $400.00.

I decided that for the starter motor, such detail isn't necessary neither is the cost. Go to an auto electric place where they'll go over it for about $75 (at the time) or swap for a factory rebuilt at a parts dealer for about $125.00.

I went with a guy who worked with me and lots of stuff like this (starter, alternator, engine rebuild, brakes, instruments) were sent out to the experts who focus on one thing.

The labor rate from my restorer varied quite a bit: teardown stuff and most reassembly was at a lower rate; body work at a higher rate; and mechanical the highest. He didn't have an $85 an hour mechanic taking out lights; the lower cost young help did the grunt work.

It pays to do your homework and find someone you can be comfortable with, and everyone's needs and comfort level is different.

[Wayne]

Gents thanks for the replies,most helpful

I'm tempted to pack thus car away in a garage for  a bit but I'm finding I'm a bit hooked on gathering information and seeing the end if the project

I've searched the net and not many for sale apart from a couple at £7000 which is too much for a doner,there is a 280 se in Belgium but it's a 280 se berlina so don't know if engine will fit,that's about £ 5,000. I am missing lots of bits so if I can get loads on a doner the it could be a good option..

I think I'm going to have to get myself a garage  so I can be involved and not rely on others so much

Great help and I think I've nearly read this forum start to finish out of pure interest

W

[Wayne]

Cees
I've read there are many of the engine parts on the 280 se which are interchangeable with the  280sl, the reason I ask is the doner I may have found has everything I need pand could be really useful. I've read lots of the running gear fits as well as many of the engine parts. Sad the auto box doesn't drop in though.
If I can identify all the shared parts then I can strip and keep for the long term,I did find a thread on here but not as much info as I would have liked
Thanks
W

[ja17]

Actually the early 280-SE sedans used the same transmission as the W113 cars. But the sedans changed to a new version transmission in 1969 sometime. The W113 SLs kept the early version transmission.  As Cees mentioned, the aluminum engine  motor mount supports are a critical item unique to the W113 cars. You can install the 280SE engine as long as you switch these. The transmission must be the early version to work in the W113 cars. The easiest way to identify the early transmission is that it has a 16 bolt oil pan and the later transmission has a four bolt oil pan. A few other items on the sedan engines are slightly different but not critical. Be aware that there is an early 280 engine and a late 280 engine The heads and cylinder blocks of these are not interchangeable, no matter if it is an SL or sedan. Early 280 heads must be used  with early 280 blocks and late 280  heads must be used with late 280 blocks. Both early and late engine assemblies are correct for your W113 SL depending on production date. The SL engine blocks do have a different part number since they have a tachometer drive which the sedan blocks do not. There are some other items which are unique. These unique items bolt on or off. Another example is the crankshaft pulleys are different on the sedans in most cases.

These 280SE engines were used in six cylinder sedans, 1968-1972 (W108  chassis). After 1972 the six cylinder 280SE models were equiped with a different twin cam engine (M110) and is not usable in a W113. So if you are looking for a sedan donor for a 280SL find a (W108  chassis) 280SE six cylinder sedan 1968-1972. Some rarer six cylinder sedans, coupes, cabs, (W109, W111, W109 Chassis)of the era also used the M130 engine.  Always double check the engine number to verify it is a good donor!

[Gerd]

Hi,

The widened cooling slots and the related inserts are documented in the (German) Mercedes workshop manual I have - while the metal strips aren't.

(But I agree in guessing they're meant to reinforce the cylinder wall once the slot had been widened and they should be left in place. If they were only needed for production they would have been removed prior to shipping the replacement short blocks.)

This is what I found:

Werkstatt-Handbuch
PKW-Typen ab 1968 Baureihe 108-113
Wartung, Einstellung und Montage
Seiten 01-11/4 & 01-11/5 im Nachtrag 3 / Erweiterung Juli 1973


Workshop manual
Passenger cars starting from 1968, 108-113 series
Maintenance, adjustment and assembly
Pages 01-11/4 & 01-11/5 of the addendum/extension July 1973

(Scan of German version attached)

Translation:

Cooling slots in cylinder crank case / engine block
Vehicles concerned:
280SL/8

Introduced to series production from chassis number 016450 on.

Type 280SL/8 got deeper and thus wider cooling slots in the cylinder crank case.

That way more favorable temperatures in the combustion chamber area can be achieved.

The deeper resp. wider cooling slots reach into the cylinder head bolt's threaded holes in the engine block.

Thus these threaded holes got inserts with Allen screws wrench size 12mm (see cross section A-B, pos. 1, drawing 01-11/9). The insert's first thread sits approx. 5mm deeper than on engines without the widened cooling slots. Thus the cylinder head bolts have bee extended to 115 and 145mm.



Regards,

Gerd

[ja17]

Hello Gerd,

I am not so convinced  about the inserts remaining in place. All the latest engineering drawings (sections and plans) you posted, show all the new changes (thread inserts, larger slots etc.) But the metal strips are not shown. I can't understand the logic of Mercedes making the slots and water passages larger then partially blocking them with the metal strips. In addition leaving the metal strips in place would transfer the heat from the hot spot at the top of one cylinder to the hot spot at the top of the adjacent cylinder. Lastly leaving the inserts out, and leaving  open metal slot at the top of each cylinder helps keep the thin profile of the head gasket in place by letting it slightly "extrude" into the top of the open slot. I have the latest version of the BBB with all the supplements and the metal strips do not appear and are not mentioned anywhere.

Could it be that after the slots were machined in between the cylinders at the factory, the metal strips were installed to protect the thin walls from breaking or vibrating while the cylinders were bored and the top deck of the block was milled? The metal strips were then left in place to protect the vulnerable thin metal from breakage during shipping and handling. They are easily removed during assembly? With the slots open the cooling and water flow is improved and the head gasket is "keyed" into place between the cylinders as the head is torqued.

On the other side of the argument.......as the slots became wider, possibly the metal strips were added to keep the head gasket from "extruding" too far down into the slot? Of coarse this does not explain why the factory literature and drawings do not show or document the metal strips.

It would be nice not to have to guess on this. Lets see some actual documentation.

[stickandrudderman]

It's an interesting conundrum.
My gut feeling is that the strips are need to add structural support to the cylinders after the slots have been formed. Perhaps it's just not possible to make the slots without compromising the local rigidity and these strips are inserted to try and recover some of that lost rigidity.

[66andBlue]

For completeness sake here is the corresponding text that Gerd posted in the English workshop manual that MB provided, addendum 1973.
Also, none of the spare parts lists mention these strips and no part numbers are known for them.

[Cees Klumper]

Can someone post this question on the German site? Possibly it's been addressed there, or someone knows someone who might still know for sure?

[Gerd]

Hi,

I don't have any Mercedes drawing showing the "filler", too, but - looking at the picture shown by Wayne above - the drawing in the workshop manual doesn't seem to properly reflect what's been finally built:

As far as I can see, there's a "recess" in the coolant hole - it seems to be approx. 4...5mm deep and I guess the "filler" will just have the same "depth" - i.e. it won't eat up too much of the extended water pocket, there's still a significant gain compared to the previous versions.

(Perhaps somebody having a block with a "filler" may check recess and "filler height" and confirm or reject my assumption...)

Adding my "assumed" filler into the drawing, it gets approx. the same width as the cast iron between the cylinders underneath - see picture below.

Regards,

Gerd

[ja17]

I think your logic is good also Stick and Gerd. Would be best to know for sure.

Another thought, the later M110 engine (twin cam 280SE) uses the same style block, with slots and thread inserts. It has no metal strips.

Also, I believe the metal strips in the head are milled when the block is milled on the top deck. I recall seeing the matched machining marks.

Yes Alfred, I would guess Mercedes would supply these as a replacement part if they were meant to stay, as some could get corroded, damaged or lost.

The mystery continues~

[Wayne]

It looks as though we are getting nearer to solving the problem

'should they stay or should they go'

I've just written a complaint to Crewe who wrote my engine off without even knowing if the  block was original or remanafactured, in their words the inserts are aftermarket and breach the water ways....I'm not happy I'm paying over 2300  for nothing more than a car in bits and boxes and no further forward.

In this respect I'm glad this has become a useful thread for others to follow, what it does show is that no one yet has come up with a specific answer and some experts charge over 10 k for an engine rebuild......maybe the most expensive is not all what it seems

I'll get some close up shots when I get the engine back and see if I can get measurements too, hopefully this will provide more info. Don't hold your breath though as there could be a battle before I get the car back

Best price for a donor car so far is 4500 for a 72 and a good runner with history , best price for used se engine 2000 complete

Wayne

[ja17]

Wayne, there is only a very small percentage of these M130 engines that are the very latest versions. Very few were ever used and only in the latest  W113 cars as they came from the factory. Most were  supplied as replacement engine blocks for the sedans and SLs. This latest version incorporated all  the improvements in design as supplied it the latest 280SE sedans which were produced into 1972 after the end of the W113 production.  I am not surprised that this information is new to some. However, with the exception of the strips, these changes are documented in the latest version BBB or its supplements (1972).

[tel76]

I received the block that you see in post # seven back from the machine shop after it had been re-bored, the holes in the block at nearly either end of the slot have been drilled out to 7mm, the depth of the resultant hole is 7mm, the insert sits on the bottom of the ridge and the top is flush with the block face.
I have a 280se block assembly and the holes at the ends of the slots is 6mm (no inserts fitted).
With the increase in hole size I would have thought that the flow of coolant would not be affected by the presence of the inserts.
Do we have anyone with direct access to MB classic centre in Stuttgart that could ask the question and get the answer, I feel sure a lot of members would like to know why the inserts were fitted.

[66andBlue]

... However, with the exception of the strips, these changes are documented in the latest version BBB or its supplements (1972).

More than 7,000 280SL were manufactured with these modifications after the  production breakpoint (VIN 016450). Thus, another way of finding out whether MB added these inserts for protection only during manufacturing and/or shipping as Joe writes is to open up one of these last year 280SLs but with an original untouched M130.983 motor and check whether the inserts are there or not.
Given that so many cars were produced with these changes yet the inserts are noticed so rarely my bet is that they represent exchange blocks where the installer did not remove them.